The Gate

Hi Diane,

OK, good!

You didn't have much to say there, perhaps because my questions were very to the point, and that is absolutely fine, I will take that at face value - however, if there is ever something else you want to add, don't feel you mustn't mention it because I did not ask you to.

So what power, if any, is left in the fear?

Is there anything more than sensations and stories involving a fictional character?

Is anything in danger? Is there anything to protect?

Best wishes,

Perry

Hi Perry

I woke in the night with a lot of fear. I directed my attention to the physical sensations of burning and tensing of the muscles in my legs. The fear sensations ran up and down my body with thoughts racing and fueling the fear. So I have come back to my last post again, because I found it very difficult to write and felt a sort of blankness which was difficult to experience directly even though I kept looking.

So thoughts arise featuring a 'me, Diane' character failing to achieve various things, and this is accompanied by various uncomfortable feelings and sensations. Is there any real danger here? Can the 'me, Diane' character, this idea, actually be hurt?. Does this idea of 'me, Diane' actually need protection?

I have tried to trace back to the fear in the night but I am finding it difficult to connect. There is a sort of blankness in my head as I look at the questions you asked me. The ‘me, Diane’ character this idea can’t be hurt’. I can see this but I also feel a sort of numbness. This is what happened when I posted yesterday but I did try to answer the question honestly, that it is an idea and an idea cannot hurt even though hurt feelings can arise. The same with the question “is there any real danger here?” If the ‘failing to achieve’ give rise to uncomfortable feelings and sensations’ there is no danger, but there are feelings of disappointment and sometimes despair. But as these are not direct experience and are thoughts, I was left with the blank feeling too. Does the ‘me Diane’ need protection?’ Not really because this is an idea but there is a feeling of fear.

I will stop now and post and answer your other questions later today.

Best wishes
Diane

Hi Perry

Continuing on from previous post...

So what power, if any, is left in the fear?

The fear does have power, bodily sensations and thoughts can cause a lot of distress and turmoil. During the night when the fear was very strong I tried to stay with the direct experience, the bodily sensations and the racing thoughts even telling myself that the thoughts were just thoughts. But there is a residue of fear as the memory of the experience remains.

Is there anything more than sensations and stories involving a fictional character?

The sensations and stories involving a fictional character are beliefs, with thoughts that are just thoughts. But these too leave a residue of feelings. Sadness and fear sill play out in experience.

Is anything in danger? Is there anything to protect?

What is in danger is my sanity and fear of loosing my mind. But these too are feelings and stories which nevertheless make experiences difficult to manage sometimes.

The last two posts have been challenging and I am sorry if I have gone up a blind alley.

Best wishes
Diane

Hi Diane,

Don't worry about whether you're on track or off track, I'll bring us back if necessary. It's best if you feel free to report what is going on without feeling that you have to filter what you are saying to stay on track.

I did try to answer the question honestly, that it is an idea and an idea cannot hurt even though hurt feelings can arise

This is very good.

It may seem so simple, and perhaps even so obvious, that you might overlook its significance, so it is worth pausing to take this in.... You're saying that the 'me, Diane' in the scary story is not a real 'self' that needs to be protected, but just an idea.

What fear is protecting is something that is not really in danger because it cannot be harmed.

You seem to be clear about this, though maybe a bit tentative - do any doubts remain, or are you quite sure about it?

By the way, if you've often suffered from fear in the past, then this is unlikely to stop overnight, regardless of any realisation. This is the nature of habit. Habit is like a runaway train - you can disable the engine, but it will keep on rolling for some time. When it comes to habitual fear, once you know a thought to be a thought, a feeling to be a feeling, and a sensation to be a sensation, then you may find that this kind of fear begins to seem more like an old scratched record than something existentially disturbing. From this point, the habit is no longer being fuelled, it is just playing itself out, the engine has been disabled, and it will very gradually ebb away over time.

I was interested that you said a few days back that asking "Is this self?" no longer provoked fear. What comes up now when you read something like this:

"there is no self, there never has been a self, experience rolls on with no central agent in control of it all"

?

Best wishes,

Perry

Hi Perry

You're saying that the 'me, Diane' in the scary story is not a real 'self' that needs to be protected, but just an idea

Thank you for pointing this out as I did overlook the significance. I think I have just begun to really understand that “the fear is protecting something that is not really in danger”, although it still feels a little tentative. I associate the hurt feelings to be connected to the ‘me, Diane’ even though I do see that the ‘me Diane’ is not real. Its the real feelings that kept turning me back toward a ‘self’. I think the experience when fear, hurt and sadness arise, I confuse these feelings in the moment with the ‘self’ even though I do no that ‘self’ is no where to be found.

Thank you also for pointing out that the fear is unlikely to stop overnight regardless of any realisation. I have had fear since childhood and still suffer panic attacks. I do strongly believe that I can still see through the ‘self’ regardless of how much fear is around. I also believe fear will be present right up to the higher fetters which is a strong motivator to work through them all (I am not thinking about that at the moment as I am focused on ‘self’). I am very heartened by the runaway train no longer being fuelled but the engine is still coasting along. I had a lot of fear again in the night but I don’t need to have a ‘self’ to explain it I just need to remember its habit playing out.

“there is no self, there never has been a self, experience rolls on with no central agent in control of it all’

As I read and reread this, there is some burning and tingling in my legs. I have previously labeled this as fear but it could be the beginnings of excitement. There is now more fear sensations in my legs, but I could just let this ‘role on’ as there is nothing to protect if there is ‘no self’. Now I notice a thought saying “perhaps there is an agent in control of it all’. A thought clinging to the belief that there really is a ‘me, Diane’ in control, but she is just a story an ‘idea’. More tingling and burning the fear again. Let the fear roll on don’t put any fuel in the engine.

Best wishes
Diane

Hi Diane,

there is some burning and tingling in my legs. I have previously labeled this as fear but it could be the beginnings of excitement.

Well that would be a very nice turn-around!

Fear and excitement are rather similar in some ways, particularly on a bodily level.

So do you see a positive side to discovering that this 'me, Diane' is a fictional character?

Best wishes,

Perry

Hi Perry

Fear and excitement are rather similar in some ways, particularly on a bodily level.

I can’t ever recall experiencing excitement and fear together, fear is usually overwhelming. So that is very positive. I haven’t noticed excitement on a bodily level, so I will look out for this as I usually think its only experienced in my head!

I ask myself what is the positive side to discovering that this ‘me, Diane’ is a fictional character? I have a tendency to blame myself for not being in control of my emotions and feelings. But I can't control my thoughts, feelings and emotions as they are not in my control. They all arise without a ‘me’ doing anything. I am not quite sure why but no ‘me’ would be a relief. If there is no ‘me’ then when difficult experiences bring up painful responses and I feel hurt, angry, upset and blame myself, it wouldn’t all seem so personal. It would be quite nice if a ‘me’ didn’t get in the way of experience but just let it be. I have remembered what you said about not getting rid of anything but just seeing it was never there in the first place, although I don't feel I am quite there yet.

Best wishes
Diane

Hi Diane,

I can understand why this discovery might be a relief -
what kinds of needless difficulties arise when you mistake this idea for something real?

I am going to be off grid for a couple of days...

I suggest you use the time just to continue to ask: is self anywhere to be found in experience? Is this completely clear, or are there lingering doubts?

I expect we may need to look more deeply into "control". You might like to explore a situation in which there is a strong sense of control, and look really carefully at what is going on.

For example: take an A4 sheet of paper, place one hand on it, fingers open, and use the other hand to trace round it very carefully and slowly with a pen or pencil.

Explore the sense of control - is there really an "I" agent making it all happen?

Or is the sense of control itself just more feelings and thoughts arising and passing in experience?

Best wishes

Perry

Hi Perry

what kinds of needless difficulties arise when you mistake this idea for something real?

It gives rise to repetitive thoughts going round and round and then I can’t concentrate on something I am trying to do and I have to keep starting again. It can also happen in a conversation, I drift off into thoughts and miss what someone has said. I think that there is a self doing this that isn’t doing what I want.

is self anywhere to be found in experience? Is this completely clear, or are there lingering doubts?

I think there are some lingering doubts. I caught myself rehearsing a conversation in my head. It was going round and round then I noticed it and I also noticed the tendency to think it was the self doing this. I have to have a test at the hospital and because I am anxious about it, I noticed that I label the anxiety as self as a way to explain the experience. I am trying to remind myself that this is an idea it’s not a self. I notice this morning that whilst trying to do several tasks my thoughts were repeating themselves, sometimes with a story and that seems to cause stress. Again this is when I think a self is organising the experience. I am trying to notice this more.

Tracing around my hand. Explore the sense of control - is there really an "I" agent making it all happen?
Or is the sense of control itself just more feelings and thoughts arising and passing in experience?

While I was tracing around my hand thoughts kept arising "who is making this happen?". "It must be 'me' telling my hand what to do or else how else does it know to do this?" So I started to believe my thoughts were self or a self in control.

Oh dear I seem to have doubts about self and control now, even while I try to focus on my direct experience.

Best wishes
Diane

Hi Diane,

I think that there is a self doing this that isn’t doing what I want

That's really interesting.

So one self drifting off, and another self annoyed at the first self for drifting off?

It is as if: as soon as one self is assumed, it is necessary to assume more of them!

How many can actually be found? Many? One? Or none at all?

I notice this morning that whilst trying to do several tasks my thoughts were repeating themselves, sometimes with a story and that seems to cause stress. Again this is when I think a self is organising the experience.

This is the same pattern, yes? "This" self thinking that "that self" is organising the stressful thoughts?

Let's consider this as two thoughts:

1. a thought arises repeating a story that causes stress
2. a thought arises regarding the "self" that must have been organising the previous story-thought

Do these thoughts happen at the same time? Presumably not, so I wonder: is "self" only assumed to be driving PAST thoughts?

Let's look:

Sitting as you are now, no doubt thoughts will arise after a little while ... so do you notice: is "self" found during the CURRENT thought, or only assumed to be the driver of a PAST thought?

Best wishes,

Perry

Hi Perry

Your back just in time!

It is as if: as soon as one self is assumed, it is necessary to assume more of them!
How many can actually be found? Many? One? Or none at all?

When I wrote the last post I felt assailed by 'selves'. What I took for 'selves' turns out to be just thoughts. I was so crowded in by them I didn't see this. You are right there is a pattern that the 'story and thinking self' is being organised by the 'real self'.

is "self" only assumed to be driving PAST thoughts?

As I sit a thoughts says "its taken a while to understand what happened during the last post". Another thought "have you really understood?" I catch myself thinking that 'self' is this last thought. It happens so fast that I nearly miss it. But it is not a 'self' it is just another thought.

I think when I feel under pressure with lots to do with thoughts racing about what is to be done and I don't like the feeling, I turn this into different 'selves' one who is in control of the thoughts and one who is experiencing the stress.

Do you think this makes sense?


Best wishes
Diane

Hi Diane,

I replied to your post, but now I cannot see it .... strange

I will write again asap!

perry

Hi Diane,

the 'story and thinking self' is being organised by the 'real self'

What is the 'real self' here?

I catch myself thinking that 'self' is this last thought. It happens so fast that I nearly miss it. But it is not a 'self' it is just another thought.

Very good! Spotting this process in action is excellent!

It is worth noting this in current experience some more - once you are quite familiar with this fact about experience, the habit of projecting 'self' into past thoughts can begin to drop away.

It is subtle, though, so at first it might only be really clear while paying careful attention, not in the hurly burly of a busy life.

when I feel under pressure with lots to do with thoughts racing about what is to be done and I don't like the feeling, I turn this into different 'selves' one who is in control of the thoughts and one who is experiencing the stress

I do recognise what you are describing.

The main thing for the purposes of our investigation, though, is not what might go on at other times, but what is observable right now....

As thoughts arise and pass now, is there any 'self' organising it all?

Best wishes

Perry

Hi Perry

What I mean’t by ‘’real self’ was that when I posted last, there seemed lots of selves present and I had a thought that the ‘real self’ was in control directing all the 'other selves' that were popping into experience, although they weren’t in experience they were thoughts.

I also noticed yesterday that I projected a craving onto a ‘self’ that this 'self' was responsible for the craving rather than it was a feeling. I only just caught it.

As thoughts arise and pass now, is there any 'self' organising it all?

Thoughts arise and pass and there is no 'self' organising them.

A repeating thought however is lingering creating doubt, "how did your draw around your hand if no 'self' was directing this". I remind myself this is a thought and that drawing round my hand just happens and I don't know how I do it other than it just does. But a doubt lingers. It still lingers even though I can't find the 'self' at this moment in direct experience.

Best wishes
Diane

Hi Diane,

I have rather a lot of correspondence to keep up with at the moment, I don't think I've been doing very well with my daily replies to you - apologies for keeping you waiting.

I also noticed yesterday that I projected a craving onto a ‘self’ that this 'self' was responsible for the craving rather than it was a feeling. I only just caught it.

I love this! Day to day mindfulness revealing these processes is really good. 'Only just catching' these things is very typical when approaching something relatively new - by the time it becomes full-on in-yer-face obvious, that round of work is nearly over.

Thoughts arise and pass and there is no 'self' organising them.

OK, great, that is also my experience.

You sound in no doubt at all, which is great.

So long as the opposite view still tends to arise day-to-day at times, you may benefit from 'proving' this again through observation now and then.

A repeating thought however is lingering creating doubt, "how did your draw around your hand if no 'self' was directing this". I remind myself this is a thought and that drawing round my hand just happens and I don't know how I do it other than it just does. But a doubt lingers. It still lingers even though I can't find the 'self' at this moment in direct experience.

OK, good - so on one level you are quite sure that no 'self' can be found, and yet this thought keeps arising.

Can you spot an assumption 'beneath' the doubting thought?

How can the wind blow, if nobody is blowing the wind?

Best wishes,

Perry