feels like I'm close

[Dennis90405]

Hi Peter,

Your responses are heartfelt and beautiful! :)

If there isn't anything else you would like to explore, I have some questions to ask you.

Are you ready?


Warmly,
Dennis

[Petar]

Hi Dennis,

If there isn't anything else you would like to explore, I have some questions to ask you.

Are you ready?

I'm not sure if anything needs to be explored, I really don't know. I am scared but all fear is a result of beliefs, and those beliefs should gradually lose their grip. They have already started to dissolve, although slowly.

Yes, you can ask me the questions.

Best,
Petar

[Dennis90405]

Ok Peter,


Here are the questions I mentioned - 6 of them.

Have fun with the answers. :D


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


With kind thanks,
Dennis

[Petar]

Hi Dennis,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

- no, nothing is separate from the rest of the environment, everything is one inseparable whole.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

- The illusion of a self is created by a thought which comes after thoughts, actions, words, as if they were chosen by an entity independently from the environment, rather than happening as part of the flow and movement of life. Thus, this I-thought becomes an imagined self, together with other thoughts and images that become part of it, which is supposed to exist in reality, but it cannot be found in reality when you look for it through DE. A separate chooser cannot be found when you examine how life flows. This mind-made self is then protected by fear, as if the life experience will end without it.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

- right now, it changes between relief and worry. It's something new, so the self-thought and other fearful thoughts still occur, sponsored by fear and causing fear. However, now the thoughts and their relationship with fear are noticed and looked at, while at the same time noticing that without them aliveness is still here and everything is fine. Allowing the fear to be makes it slowly dissipate and the fearful thoughts/beliefs to lose their grip. When this happens, peace takes their place. It becomes more apparent that fear and its related thoughts are indeed "clouds drifting through the sky".

The difference since the beginning of the dialogue is that now the I-thought and other fearful thoughts are just looked at, without intellectualizing about why they occur, whether they are true or not, or how to get rid of them. There is just looking and gradual noticing that there is no use of them, that their content is not reality, and that there is no problem now without them.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

well, many bits made me look. I think the essential bit was when I started to notice how the I-thought occurred after thoughts, words, and actions which had already happened spontaneously and as an interaction between the surrounding environment and existing knowledge, sensations, and feelings. From then on, I started to regularly observe how actions, words, and thoughts happen and then how the self-thought is added after them.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Everything is happening as an interaction between different "elements" - thoughts, words, feelings, stillness, the surrounding environment. There is nobody outside those elements, the elements are all there is. They are also, of course, not separate from each other, but a single field. There is nobody to be in control, no one to have free will. Now, whether life has free will, I can't really tell yet. Maybe some decisions might have happened differently, who knows? Every next thing happening is influenced heavily by the existing conditions, but could it unfold in more than one way under the exact same conditions, I don't know.

By the time something is noticed, it has already happened. Thoughts arise spontaneously, and if they don't cause negativity, they are followed. If they do cause negativity, or if they have led to a question, thinking stops and awareness shifts onto sensations, and moves spontaneously between them, until the next thoughts arise. If they don't cause negativity, they are followed, if they do, awareness shifts onto sensations, and so on. So far that's how life seems to work, based on my DE. It's not very easy to observe this.

6) Anything to add?

Well, of course, I'd like to thank you from the bottom of my heart for guiding me. Although there's still fear and a lot of uncertainty, I really appreciate you helping me get here, staying with me for such a long time :)

Best,
Peter

[Petar]

Dennis,

I've been shaking with panic all night, I can't fall asleep, the fear is unbearable. It's a result of noticing that thoughts happen and there is no self in the mind. I don't know what to do... I pray, but it only helps partially. How long do you think this will go on?

With hope,
Peter

[Petar]

Update: things are more relaxed now...

[Dennis90405]

Hi Peter,


Good that you're in a calmer state of mind.

When you are in an intense state, it is after all a "state of mind". If you can, return to direct perceptions: feeling the ground under your feet, the feeling of the breath entering your nose, the blue of the sky entering your eyes. Back to the basic perceptions of being.

Check back with me again soon.

With love,
Dennis

[Petar]

Dennis,

Do you think the self-thought is still not seen through completely? It keeps occurring and the story that comes with it is painfully burned up. There doesn't seem to be a kind path - the thoughts just come up and cause a lot of panic and depression when they do. There doesn't seem to be an option to focus on raw sensations in that moment - it feels like that just suppresses the beliefs and postpones the painful burning up of the story.

The main cause of suffering is that my relationship with my parents is very intimate and so the story is very closely entangled with that relationship. I told them what's going on. They have read many spiritual books, but are still identified with the story, and they don't agree with what I tried explaining to them - they try to dissuade me from continuing on this path, but there's no option to return. I don't know how I will change and how my relationship with them will change. I'm going home to stay with them soon and I have no idea how things will unfold or how to talk to them about this. Any advice? I don't want to scare them. Also, I cannot find motivation and strength to complete my degree and to follow my career right now - the mind is still very confused and I cannot use it to work. I'm just hoping for a miracle that everything will just clarify soon by itself, without too much pain.

Right now, I just want inner peace, no obligations, nothing to strive for, and to get along with my parents - I want them to somehow understand me. It feels much more peaceful when I allow myself to be free from any obligations and aspirations. How likely do you think it is that I'll be able to get back on my feet and get on with the work that's ahead of me? Could it be that it isn't my destiny to complete this degree and follow the career I've already chosen? Do people normally continue more or less on the same path after they've seen through the illusion?

Also, is there any other way to dissolve fear apart from the EFT technique and surrender + focusing on sensations? Sometimes it's so intense that it's almost suicidal - the body is shaking with panic. You think anti-depressants would help?

Sorry if it's too many questions, everything is very confusing right now.

Peter

[Petar]

Dennis... please ignore the previous message, it feels like a silly story that's not true when I read it now

Best Regards,
Peter

[Dennis90405]

Hi Peter,


I hope your weekend is going well.

You are doing great work here at LU. You've come a long way.

I notice that you are going through cycles of very intense feelings, then back to calm.

I have a few questions for you:

Is intensity ok?
Is there any resistance to the intensity of this process?
Take a look and tell me.

What is being resisted?

There is no need to rush with your answers - take the time you need.


With love,
Dennis

[Petar]

Hi Dennis,

Hope you're doing well too.

Is intensity ok?
Is there any resistance to the intensity of this process?

- intensity is okay, it doesn't stay for long because it has little to stick to now. There is no resistance to intense feelings.

What is being resisted?

- not knowing what will happen. That something might go wrong and cause a psychological disorder. That I might change too much and make mom and dad worry a lot.

Right now the mind is very calm though, and I can use thinking for work better than a few days ago.

Love,
Peter

[Dennis90405]

Hi Peter,

As always, thank you for your honest answers.

Since beginning on the "path" at LU, what you've been seeking is to realize that you've been identifying with thoughts of "Peter-Self". In other words, believing in the illusion that you are "Peter-Self". When you near seeing through that illusion you experience fear. Am I right so far?

Question:
What if the realization has happened already and it went unnoticed - would anything change?


With love,
Dennis

[Petar]

Hi Dennis,

Since beginning on the "path" at LU, what you've been seeking is to realize that you've been identifying with thoughts of "Peter-Self". In other words, believing in the illusion that you are "Peter-Self". When you near seeing through that illusion you experience fear. Am I right so far?

- yes, you're right.

What if the realization has happened already and it went unnoticed - would anything change?

- yes, there would be no pressure to realize something. Also, there would be no fear of what might happen after the big shift if it has happened already.

There is less and less identification with the voice in the head... even re-reading what I've written above seems like someone fictional has written it...

Best,
Peter

[Petar]

Who's thinking? The commentator isn't a real someone, it's an automatic stream of thoughts. There are thoughts, feelings, and sensations. Who is aware of them? What is it that's aware? It cannot be understood… it just is. What a mystery! It's frightening and shocking at times and strangely peaceful the majority of the time. Who knows how things will unfold now, how the perception of the world will change…

I think this is it. I don't think you can help me from now on, Dennis, I mean what else could you possibly ask that needs further clarification...

Best,
Peter

[Dennis90405]

Hi Peter,


You are doing wonderfully!

Peter said:
It's frightening and shocking at times and strangely peaceful the majority of the time.

Great!

Questions:
Is this what you expected?
Is there any doubt coming up?


I hope your holidays are joyful.



With love,
Dennis