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[JonathanR]

Hello Renee,

I feel afraid not knowing because that might mean no control.
No control. No 'one' there.

On a scale, how afraid do you feel about this? A lot or just somewhat?

This feels freeing and unnerving.

This is felt by many people as they reach the gateless gate.

What is recognizing all this...I know we talked about it. The intimate noticing just happens. Is there something behind this? I want to know what this intimacy is. What's behind it.

A brilliant question Renee

Try looking. Is there something behind the noticing? If someone were in the room standing just behind you but you were not sure if they were there or not, what would you do? How would you find out?


much love

Jon

[springwater]

Jon,

I feel afraid not knowing because that might mean no control.

On a scale, how afraid do you feel about this? A lot or just somewhat?

A lot. It's kinda high. There is resistance to that. I can't believe there is no control. There has to be some.

I want to know what this intimacy is. What's behind it.

Try looking. Is there something behind the noticing? If someone were in the room standing just behind you but you were not sure if they were there or not, what would you do? How would you find out?

Well I'd look behind me if someone were in the room. There's nothing behind the noticing. It's everywhere I look.

Thank you,
Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

A lot. It's kinda high. There is resistance to that. I can't believe there is no control. There has to be some.

I understand. There is a feeling or thought that something is in danger, that something must be protected? Fear is a natural and loyal protective instinct that jumps in to push away that which is perceived as threatening. Please thank the fear for doing such a wonderful loyal job of protection all thee years and tell it that it can afford to relax. Nothing will be harmed (there was no self before this process, what change will there be if this is noticed? Nothing will be harmed or killed).

Well, another way to look at this is to ask 'what makes things happen'? Is it a 'me' that 'makes things happen'? Or is everything just happening already? Will things suddenly fall apart of become chaos because it is noticed that there is no 'I' controler (other than the illusion of one)?

Could it be that what was imagined to be controlling events is simply thoughts ABOUT 'having control'?

Look at breathing, eating, sleeping, even driving to work. Is there a controler, a puppet-master behind the scenes, pulling strings and making things happen? Check your experience.

All best

Jon

[springwater]

Jon,

Nothing will be harmed (there was no self before this process, what change will there be if this is noticed? Nothing will be harmed or killed).

i can feel this what you're saying - there was no self before this process - it's like something in me knows this.

Well, another way to look at this is to ask 'what makes things happen'? Is it a 'me' that 'makes things happen'? Or is everything just happening already? Will things suddenly fall apart of become chaos because it is noticed that there is no 'I' controler (other than the illusion of one)?

I don't know. Sometimes it feels like it's all up to me to make something happen. I struggle with this.

Last night, I was in the midst of deciding to do something or not. It involved walking about 5 minutes in the freezing cold late at night to do a task at work. It would be ok if I didn't do it. No one would really care. It would be good if I did do it. So I waited in my cozy bed...waiting for what was going to happen because I was pondering this who's really doing it thing. So I waited and waited and nothing was happening but my mind was going back and forth with the stories of who would care who wouldn't...I'm so tired and cozy warm anyways..blah blah blah. Then finally because I had to get up and pee (sorry :) ) I found myself getting up, getting warm clothes on. I noticed that I almost didn't go even though I had my shoes on too haha. But I thought...look at me...I look ready to go down there. Who started this. So, o.k. I went. Who did it. Who decided it I don't know.

The thoughts of 'who's really doing it' thing kept me waiting a long time...I was getting so tired. Why the heck did I go down there when I was so tired. This confuses me how much the mind has influence on what happens.

Something follows the mind or doesn't follow the mind it seems. But who's really doing that.

How would I really know that something else is fully in charge? How would I know I don't have to worry about anything anymore...that things just happen?

Could it be that what was imagined to be controlling events is simply thoughts ABOUT 'having control'?

Yes...it could be that. Yes I absolutely see this possibility. But that I waited forever in my cozy bed...and that I really went down there in the freezing cold when I didn't really have to, come on...what made me do that?! :) haha

It's almost like I have to accept this mind that wants to be in control and make the right decision. Accept it as it being just what it is and it's not me?

Look at breathing, eating, sleeping, even driving to work. Is there a controler, a puppet-master behind the scenes, pulling strings and making things happen? Check your experience.

Ok yes...all those breathing, digesting, sleeping...it's clear that those just happen somehow. Deciding what to eat..to have another cup of tea or not....what's doing all that...It seems like the mind! The mind is what sways things this way and that. But where do the thoughts come from, yes..that's a mystery. Ugghh. I don't know.

Sometimes I'm critical of my personality and the way it does things, the way it has a hard time making decisions. It's hard for me to believe it could be all happening without my doing - some behind the scenes thing making it all happen. If that's the case, it could be really refreshing. I could see the possibility of a compassionate acceptance of this personality and the way it does things. I dont' know

Thank you Jon,
Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

Great post. Thank you.

. I don't know. Sometimes it feels like it's all up to me to make something happen. I struggle with this.

Ok, explore the thought process involved here.

Would you say that 'it feels like it's all up to me to make something happen' is a thought ABOUT how a 'me' must 'make something happen'?

Where is that 'me' ? Is it a thought 'me'? Or is it some real entity?

You can try this exercise (you must do it for real)... Close your eyes and imagine you are holding a melon. Feel it's weight, it's temperature, fragrance. Imagine it as vividly as possible. After a minute, open your eyes. Where did it go?

Another one, find a real piece of fruit. Leave it somewhere and go into a different room. Now close your eyes. Imagine that fruit, it's colour, scent, texture, everything about it. After a minute go and fetch the actual fruit and pick it up. Experience this real piece of fruit. Notice that there are now real sensations rather than imagined ones.

The 'me' that must 'make something happen'. Does it exist? Can it be seen, does it have colour, scent, weight, texture, taste? Or is it like the thought-fruit?


(BTW I am not ignoring the remainder of what you wrote but what I have written here is enough for one day :-)

Love

Jon

[springwater]

Hi Jon,

Would you say that 'it feels like it's all up to me to make something happen' is a thought ABOUT how a 'me' must 'make something happen'?

Yes, that resonates. I just don't know what's doing it

Where is that 'me' ? Is it a thought 'me'? Or is it some real entity?

It is a thought 'me'

The 'me' that must 'make something happen'. Does it exist? Can it be seen, does it have colour, scent, weight, texture, taste? Or is it like the thought-fruit?

Yes, it is like the thought-fruit.

Thank you,
Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

. Yes, it is like the thought-fruit.

Ok. The real piece of fruit could be pickec up and felt, seen, tasted and so on. It was really there.

What about the thought fruit though? The 'me that must make something happen'? Is that 'really there'?

. Would you say that 'it feels like it's all up to me to make something happen' is a thought ABOUT how a 'me' must 'make something happen'?
Yes, that resonates. I just don't know what's doing it

What does the stars in the sky, the leaves on trees, raindrops? What 'does' thoughts? Are they 'your' thoughts', 'done' by ,'you'? If so. why don't you choose your thoughts before they appear and only allow nice ones to happen? What's going on ? Find out and let me know.

Jon

[springwater]

Hi Jon,

What about the thought fruit though? The 'me that must make something happen'? Is that 'really there'?

No the 'me' idea is not really there as in a tangible way. But there still is this intimacy...this total personal always been with me thing. I don't know. I forget we probably looked at this earlier but I forget.

This intimate thing that is so familiar and that hasn't changed...that's been there ever since I can remember being conscious of 'myself'. I can see that the 'me' can be a total story. Changing all the time. Being created to be whatever it wants to be.
But this intimacy seeems like me, myself, my own, not anyone else knows it.

What does the stars in the sky, the leaves on trees, raindrops? What 'does' thoughts? Are they 'your' thoughts', 'done' by ,'you'? If so. why don't you choose your thoughts before they appear and only allow nice ones to happen? What's going on ? Find out and let me know.

This is blowing my brain up. I don't know what does thoughts or where they come from. No I can't choose them. But I seem to be able to add to them? It's like a thought will appear. I guess it's out of my control if I get lost in the thought and keep adding to it...making a story. I guess it's out of my control if I step back from the thought and observe.

What is going on?....this is really hard to believe I have nothing to do with what's going on. So I'm just observing what's going on and I'm not in control of any of it. This is really crazy. But I'm so weird!! How can the 'whatever' be orchestrating my weird idiosyncrasies. I would think that whatever is orchestrating things would make me more confident haha!

The other night I was locking up at work. I was standing at the door to go out and I wondered...what if I just stand here til the 'whatever' moves me...I'll just stay here til 'I'm' not doing it. 'Something else' move me. I waited and waited and I felt like I was in control of this waiting. I decided to keep waiting at the door and not go out til the 'something else' moved me. I realized I could wait there a really long time. I really felt like I am in control of this action....waiting....thinking about waiting for something to happen. After a while I got tired and felt like this is dumb and gave up on my experiment. I don't know. It seemed like the 'I' was involved with the mind in the way of events of this waiting...My mind decided to wait at that door til the 'whatever' that's not me since I'm not in control thing moved me. But my mind said this is dumb let's not stand here late at night anymore. I don't know. I still don't know if something else is in control. Yes, right, where did the 'this is dumb' thought come from. I didn't think of it before it arose...ok.

Thanks so much Jon,
Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee

.
This intimate thing that is so familiar and that hasn't changed...that's been there ever since I can remember being conscious of 'myself'. I can see that the 'me' can be a total story. Changing all the time. Being created to be whatever it wants to be.

Perhaps both happen?

Could it be that there is an 'unchanging', like a screen of some sort, against which the drama and story of 'my life' flickers and moves, appearing to be all about a 'me'?

The drama seems so involved, it's engrossing? It is easy to identify with the main actors and everything that appears to be happening in the story, and the film really is being projected somehow, but in reality the moving images are only ever rays of coloured light? There are no actual main actors, only the ideas of them?

. This is blowing my brain up.

Excellent. Seriously :-)

I don't know what does thoughts or where they come from. No I can't choose them. But I seem to be able to add to them? It's like a thought will appear. I guess it's out of my control if I get lost in the thought and keep adding to it...making a story.

Bit like dreaming?

What would it be like to wake up from this?

I guess it's out of my control if I step back from the thought and observe.

Who or what can step back and observe? Maybe observation can happen but is it a 'you' that 'observes'?

. Yes, right, where did the 'this is dumb' thought come from. I didn't think of it before it arose...ok.

Very good Renee. That was a very cool experiment to try. It's interesting that there can be that thought 'I could be here a really long time'. (As if that is going to happen), but then it seems impossible to just wait for ever and something else takes over, the need to get home or whatever. Thus breaking or denting the idea of 'I control', 'I decide', 'I choose'?

All the best,

Jon

[springwater]

Jon,

This intimate thing that is so familiar and that hasn't changed...that's been there ever since I can remember being conscious of 'myself'. I can see that the 'me' can be a total story. Changing all the time. Being created to be whatever it wants to be.

Perhaps both happen?

ok, yes right...

Could it be that there is an 'unchanging', like a screen of some sort, against which the drama and story of 'my life' flickers and moves, appearing to be all about a 'me'?

Could be...

The drama seems so involved, it's engrossing? It is easy to identify with the main actors and everything that appears to be happening in the story, and the film really is being projected somehow, but in reality the moving images are only ever rays of coloured light? There are no actual main actors, only the ideas of them?

Could be. Feels freeing. Almost sounds like a fantasy movie. I ponder the release of this clench of the 'me' and the actors and the things of this world. Could I just let go of all this?

I don't know what does thoughts or where they come from. No I can't choose them. But I seem to be able to add to them? It's like a thought will appear. I guess it's out of my control if I get lost in the thought and keep adding to it...making a story.

Bit like dreaming?

What would it be like to wake up from this?

It's like a fantasy movie. I don't know really what it'd be like, but I have a feeling it would be freeing...not to be tied to everything...not lingering in regrets or the outcome of things...
what would that be like...wow...sounds great

Who or what can step back and observe? Maybe observation can happen but is it a 'you' that 'observes'?

Yes, I see there isn't really control if I observe or become engrossed...I don't like that. Is there a possibility to see the dream as a dream and not fall into it?

but then it seems impossible to just wait for ever and something else takes over, the need to get home or whatever. Thus breaking or denting the idea of 'I control', 'I decide', 'I choose'?

Yes...it feels like there needs to be a shift...see from a different perspective...
Thank you, Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

There are no actual main actors, only the ideas of them?


Could be. Feels freeing. Almost sounds like a fantasy movie. I ponder the release of this clench of the 'me' and the actors and the things of this world. Could I just let go of all this?

There can be that thought, yes, about 'me' 'letting go'. But what if there never was a 'me' that is 'clenched''? Just the mental idea of such a one? A story all ABOUT a 'me' and some sensations that feel clenched?

Who or what would 'do the 'letting go'?

Yet to see that this clencher is simply thoughts and sensations; could that be liberating? Maybe it would suddenly look funny, even?

It's like a fantasy movie. I don't know really what it'd be like, but I have a feeling it would be freeing...not to be tied to everything...not lingering in regrets or the outcome of things...
what would that be like...wow...sounds great

Could be :-) And it might seem quite ordinary. Difficult to predict.

Yes, I see there isn't really control if I observe or become engrossed...I don't like that. Is there a possibility to see the dream as a dream and not fall into it?

I understand about not liking it. Perhaps it feels dangerous or threatening? The mind may protest. The illusion of control is being challenged by actually looking to see if there really is control. It may feel that 'someone is threatened'? let me know if this feels like a big deal? If it is we will take a little time to look at this.

But maybe the other side of the coin is that there is also no control over the 'waking up' either? Identification with illusion may happen (how can thoughts be prevented?) but then suddenly seeing through it can happen too. (If it's any reassurance to you, this is how it has been for me).

All the best,

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hey Renee!

How is it going?

Jon

[springwater]

Hi Jon,

Sorry holiday and work overwhelm. I'm back.

There can be that thought, yes, about 'me' 'letting go'. But what if there never was a 'me' that is 'clenched''? Just the mental idea of such a one? A story all ABOUT a 'me' and some sensations that feel clenched?

Who or what would 'do the 'letting go'?

Yet to see that this clencher is simply thoughts and sensations; could that be liberating? Maybe it would suddenly look funny, even?

Wow, yes I can sort of know, sense what you say...but what is noticing this?

Yes, I see there isn't really control if I observe or become engrossed...I don't like that. Is there a possibility to see the dream as a dream and not fall into it?

I understand about not liking it. Perhaps it feels dangerous or threatening? The mind may protest. The illusion of control is being challenged by actually looking to see if there really is control. It may feel that 'someone is threatened'? let me know if this feels like a big deal? If it is we will take a little time to look at this.

Yes...this hits something...it feels dangerous and threatening this no control thing

But maybe the other side of the coin is that there is also no control over the 'waking up' either? Identification with illusion may happen (how can thoughts be prevented?) but then suddenly seeing through it can happen too.

Ok I don't like this either. Now this feels like not trying so hard and just living on faith...surrender...or something. This feels freeing just saying that :). But as you say 'letting go'...and I guess 'surrender' too...'giving up'...who or what would do that? I'm confused...where am I in all this...what's running the show!? I understand there's many things I'm not in control of ...digestion...heart beating...breathing...thoughts...etc. Where am I now? What am I now? What's observing all this? I don't know what's going on anymore...whoa

Thank you Jon,
Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

where am I in all this...what's running the show!? I understand there's many things I'm not in control of ...digestion...heart beating...breathing...thoughts...etc. Where am I now? What am I now? What's observing all this? I don't know what's going on anymore...whoa

You're doing great Renee.

Yet to see that this clencher is simply thoughts and sensations; could that be liberating? Maybe it would suddenly look funny, even?
Wow, yes I can sort of know, sense what you say...but what is noticing this?

Does it have to be a 'what'? Could the noticing just happen, without an owner of noticing? What would that be like? Take a look.

It may feel that 'someone is threatened'? let me know if this feels like a big deal? If it is we will take a little time to look at this.
Yes...this hits something...it feels dangerous and threatening this no control thing

Let's take a look at this? There is a perception that something is in danger, is threatened and needs protecting? This is often a natural reaction. And fear is actually a kind of love, a loyal, protective instinct. It has been doing a great job all these years of protecting the body from harm in various ways. But that fear can relax now. Please thank the fear for its loyal protection but it can afford to relax because nothing is actually threatened. Nothing can get hurt. Trying to defend an illusion is unnecessary. 'Self' has always been an illusion. An illusion or story cannot be hurt.

surrender...or something. This feels freeing just saying that :). But as you say 'letting go'...and I guess 'surrender' too...'giving up'...who or what would do that? I'm confused...where am I in all this...what's running the show!?

Where are 'you' in all this? Very good question.

What's running the show? Equally good question. It's not as if nothing happens but in experience do we find any entity 'running' it all?


love,

Jon

[springwater]

Jon,

but what is noticing this?

Does it have to be a 'what'? Could the noticing just happen, without an owner of noticing? What would that be like? Take a look.

yes I sense the noticing happening without an owner of noticing...it is just happening...but I still sense this intimacy...this personal something. Whatever this force is that's noticing...it feels personal...I want to call it 'I'... not 'I' as Renee, but 'I' as the most intimate. I feel love for this...love for this unbroken intimacy. I want to say this intimacy is noticing. You say the noticing could just happen without an owner of noticing...but I still can't escape this sense of the most personal...most intimate.

Please thank the fear for its loyal protection but it can afford to relax because nothing is actually threatened. Nothing can get hurt. Trying to defend an illusion is unnecessary. 'Self' has always been an illusion. An illusion or story cannot be hurt.

I want fearlessness. I don't want to feel I have to protect this 'me' anymore. How can I be fearless when there still is belief in thoughts about a 'me'?

What's running the show? It's not as if nothing happens but in experience do we find any entity 'running' it all?

I don't find an entity running it. It's so mysterious what is making things happen. It's hard to fully know I have nothing to do with anything.

Thanks so much Jon,
Renee