Requesting guidance

[Treelife]

Will do Jon
Cheers
M

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,
Hope you had a good weekend.

Oooh! Interesting!
That was sudden, but it can be.....Let's see how it goes for you over the next few days?

Well, perhaps my conclusion was a little ahead of schedule.

There is no separate internal centre that receives sense data, no separate observer (that's an important one), no separate decision making entity, no separate rule maker or moral authority inside me....There is sense experience and then there are thoughts. This is very clear to me now.

This statement is still true. I do believe this completely. I have no doubt there is nothing 'else', 'noone else' that constitutes a self.

In directly seeing sunlight, would you say that whatever is doing the seeing cannot be found, in contrast with the way that the sensation of light IS found to be really happening? That the seer or experiencer appears only as an assumption that such an entity must exist?

I like the phrasing of the question here Jon, and I have seen the evidence that light is experienced.
I not only believed it on Thursday, Friday into Saturday morning, but I could experience it in a strong way. Thoughts were still happening, but not taking over. There were times when I was not aware of this realisation but I could easily call upon it.
It changed on Saturday. I woke up quite tired (catch up from a heavy week) and around mid day while meditating I experienced a lot of painful emotion. This presented as somatic symptoms which are very familiar to me (I did mention back in June that I have a history of trauma) and after some time my mood went down. This is not an unusual experience for me, its onset was unexpected and surprisingly quick.
The emotional pain was quite strong and with it was a sense of another, a self. The details of where this was and how it presented were clear but I won't burden with the details unless you want them. Also over time thoughts became quite active making it difficult to create some space to do the check in of 'look and see' if there is a self. It would taken a lot of concentration and energy to look and hold the looking, and the conclusion was that there was a ‘sense of self’ that resided in the place that I experienced pain. I have done a lot of work on all of this and had the time to work through it over the weekend.

Go for a wolk in nature. By the sea or the countryside if possible. If not then a park with trees and grass and so on.
Once you're there, notice everything that is going on around you. Sun, sky, breeze, clouds, trees, noises, animals, grass, people, insects. Everything alive and happening. Notice too any sensations and thoughts that are going on at the same time as everything else.
Now look to see if there can be found an edge.
Is there some sort of boundary or border in experience behind which 'you exist' and beyond which 'everything else' is happening.

Lot of rain here in Ireland over the weekend so did not get out until Sunday evening.
At that stage the somatic symptoms has eased off but mood and energy still low. I did find the edge you describe. When I use senses (sight, hearing & feeling) I could without difficulty get the clear sense experience without anything else filtering. However over the ‘edge’ there are the thoughts that distract and/or judge. Seeing through the illusion (and experiencing the truth of my 'there is no separate internal centre....' quote above) is something I can do - with focus and concentration. The more emotional distress I experience or the more my thoughts are busy, then the more difficult it gets - and with more painful emotion (Saturday) it became impossible to see it, to separate from the ‘sense’ of ‘I’.

Of course I am a little embarrassed about my over confidence on Friday. Trying to see the positive side of this, well, there is defiantly another layer of clarity peeled into this onion. Also got a deeper understanding how the relationship of distress/emotions impacts upon the beliefs related to the illusion of self. Finally, I do belief that there is no separate internal centre that receives sense data, no separate observer (that's an important one), no separate decision making entity... The self really is an illusion even if living that truth is not so easy.

As always Jon thanks a mill for your guidance,
With love
Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

Thank you for telling me how it has been going and for a very honest account of your feelings over this past weekend.

Don't conclude that there is any kind of failure going on. You are doing very well.

I'm only going to address a couple of things, rather than divert into much analysis.

(I did mention back in June that I have a history of trauma) and after some time my mood went down. This is not an unusual experience for me, its onset was unexpected and surprisingly quick.
The emotional pain was quite strong and with it was a sense of another, a self.

This is worth looking at. Whether it's physical pain in the body or emotional pain. Maybe the illusion of 'me' is stronger, seemingly insistent at these times? The perception of greater threat or aversion and of the 'me' on a receiving end?

If it would help to tell me about the trauma please feel free. You don't have to write it here. It can be via PM. But I'll leave it to you to decide and will completely respect it if you decide not.

Also over time thoughts became quite active making it difficult to create some space to do the check in of 'look and see' if there is a self. It would taken a lot of concentration and energy to look and hold the looking, and the conclusion was that there was a ‘sense of self’ that resided in the place that I experienced pain.

I'm not surprised about the increased thoughts. Nor about the appearance of pain. Nor about the increased impression of 'self'. It's very interesting that you found this impression of a self associated with the place of the pain. Where is that place?

The self really is an illusion even if living that truth is not so easy.

That is so true.

Thank you,

love

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,
Sorry I didn't get to respond yesterday - working late. Thanks a lot for your response!

This is worth looking at. Whether it's physical pain in the body or emotional pain. Maybe the illusion of 'me' is stronger, seemingly insistent at these times? The perception of greater threat or aversion and of the 'me' on a receiving end?

Yes, it is hard to avoid this conclusion. Pain, whether emotional or somatic, is invariably a defence, protecting something - and protecting the ego, the illusion of self, is a habit formed over a life time.

It's very interesting that you found this impression of a self associated with the place of the pain. Where is that place?

The emotional/somatic pain arises in my solar plexus or often in my chest. In this occasion in was very much in my solar plexus. You will recall before I've mentioned how the sense of self frequently arises in the solar plexus. I am very familiar with the pain in my chest and solar plexus and know how it sucks the life out of life. Reminded of a line from a Leonard Cohen poem, 'you ditch you life to stay alive' [A thousand kisses deep, Cohen L]. This theme represents a very big inner conflict for me and something I have done a lot of work in personal therapy - but that is a different story.

Regarding doing the exercises, I am yesterday and today having the opportunity to regularly check in to see if there is an observer, hearer, feeler. As expected I repeatedly find that there is no observer, feeler, or hearer of sight, touch/feelings or sounds. The 'edge' between existence and 'self' is thoughts - as far as I can observe. Sometimes the thoughts do hold an assumption of self. It is difficult to say that there arises an experience of 'no self'. What does happen is that the idea of self seems to......ehhhh....can I say....'dissolve'. Even the question seems to become almost meaningless; I don't know if that represents complacency, or a shift towards transparency. BUT thoughts do bring a vague assumption of a presence, or a self - this is stronger at some times than other times. Another thing about thoughts is that they seem to be very busy. I cannot say that they are more busy than usual, it may be that I am noticing them more readily. Simultaneously I might also say that the message in these thoughts is less potent, but they are like annoying buzzing little gnats.
As of this evening I am bringing the 'space between thoughts' exercise into my meditation practice. Also now that the summer is over, work is busy and the kids are more demanding I have less time for meditating, but am managing to fit the exercises into my day - when driving, moments during meetings, etc...

Looking forward to hearing from Jon, actually always look forward to your emails.
Until then,
Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

You're doing really well. As you may have noticed my replies are often quite short? This is deliberate as I want to bring focus to one or two key things but I want to assure you that I read everything you post to me and many things you say are very good.

It is difficult to say that there arises an experience of 'no self'.

I'm not surprised. Our purpose here is in leaving no stone unturned in a search for 'self', not in looking for a thing/ entity/ experience/ state. psychic power or x-ray vision called 'no self'. It's possible for the long-held belief in the existence of a fixed, unchanging entity to drop. We look until this happens.

What does happen is that the idea of self seems to......ehhhh....can I say....'dissolve'.

There you are. Great.

BUT thoughts do bring a vague assumption of a presence, or a self - this is stronger at some times than other times.

Good to notice. Is this the illusion of self as it appears?

love

Jon



There you are.

[Treelife]

HI Jon,

Is this the illusion of self as it appears?

I guess so. I don't have much to add. I am checking in with sight, sound and feeling/touch and attempting to identify if there any anyone making it of receiving it and the answer continues to be no, while at times experiencing the assumption of self.
The closest place to finding the illusion of self is in the thoughts. When thoughts kick in, they seem to have an intimate connection with themselves.
In terms to looking at the thoughts I do wonder how to look at them - well I understand just observing them. What I mean is I got an insight into how they are just another feature arising in experience. Thoughts are up there with visuals, sounds, feelings. Just another experience arising. Of course thoughts are different from images, but so too are sounds and feelings different from images.
I guess the thing is for me to keep checking to see if there is a 'self' making or receiving the experiences? Do let me know if there is any other additional exercises.

By the way Jon can you confirm you got my private message?

Talk soon,

Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

By the way Jon can you confirm you got my private message?

Yes I did. Thank you very much for that. I'll reply to it later today and also reply here to what you wrote in your most recent post.

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

I replied to your PM. Thank you.

well I understand just observing them. What I mean is I got an insight into how they are just another feature arising in experience. Thoughts are up there with visuals, sounds, feelings. Just another experience arising. Of course thoughts are different from images, but so too are sounds and feelings different from images

This is interesting. Yes, it seems that we have the classic five senses of seeing, hearing, touch/feel, smell and taste. These are happening constantly. As you say thought is also happening, rather like the senses. The difference seems to be that thoughts come with content in the form of ideas, beliefs, story. Notice that with the appearance of a thought there is usually (not always) a narrative, words, or what the thought is ABOUT, what it 'says'.

Do you see that pure sense experience at any moment is really happening, whereas whatever is going on as thought-story isn't?

love

Jon

[Treelife]

As you say thought is also happening, rather like the senses. The difference seems to be that thoughts come with content in the form of ideas, beliefs, story. Notice that with the appearance of a thought there is usually (not always) a narrative, words, or what the thought is ABOUT, what it 'says'.

Yes that is the key feature of thoughts, and that is what makes them so intimate therefore more likely to hook in a sense of self.
However the experience of thoughts is an arising experience. It often arises in response to what has gone before it like a sensation, or a sound, or another thought etc....

Do you see that pure sense experience at any moment is really happening, whereas whatever is going on as thought-story isn't?

The experience happens in the arising of the impression (like I see the image of sun light arising in full awareness) but I don't know if anything is really happening or if that is just a thought that it is really happening - I don't actually know anything beyond the thoughts/stories I have about them. And the THOUGHT that "there is a sun that is creating the image of light and sensation of warmth and such things are really happening" is as real as the IMAGE of light (whether the thoughts &/or images, &/or lights are real at not). The image and thoughts are experienced.

Anyway I don't want to fall down the rabbit hole analyzing all this. The relevance is that thoughts have a story or a judgement or a labelling, whereas pure sense experiences do not. There can be tendency to believe the story/narrative/judgements/labels of thoughts; or if not believe them it is at lease a struggle to not react to them in some way. They often filter onto the pure sense experience. Like there is a hierarchy of experiences constructed and 'thoughts' get higher order status on this hierarchy. They trump pure experience. They do the filtering.

I'm not surprised. Our purpose here is in leaving no stone unturned in a search for 'self', not in looking for a thing/ entity/ experience/ state. psychic power or x-ray vision called 'no self'. It's possible for the long-held belief in the existence of a fixed, unchanging entity to drop. We look until this happens.

I wanted to come back to this, you made a similar point a while back also. This is useful, I think one of the difficulties I was having a couple of weeks back was that I thought there was a state of mind to be achieved, or maybe a state of mind for me to find. I have a better understanding, or maybe a slightly clearer acceptance that it in not a state of mind, more it is realizing that there is no I.
I think the new dilemma for me now is that I am less sure what the belief in 'I' actually is. When I ask myself the question, is there an 'I' to be found? Or, what 'I'? I'm not sure what these questions mean any more. What is an 'I', how would I recognize one if there was one? how would I recognize a 'NO I'? what's the difference? I worry I'm missing something, that I'm not really getting the question.
In some ways I take all this as a good sign, but in other ways I wonder if I'm wandering lost in the Sinai desert. ....I'll go with the positive thought interpretation.

With Love and thanks,
Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic

. When I ask myself the question, is there an 'I' to be found? Or, what 'I'? I'm not sure what these questions mean any more. What is an 'I', how would I recognize one if there was one? how would I recognize a 'NO I'? what's the difference? I worry I'm missing something, that I'm not really getting the question.

Like repeating a word many times our loud, it becomes meaningless, perhaps like asking questions in the abstract ?

Its practical really. Like elimination. Looking for evidence. Turning over any stones to see if something that had been assumed to 'really exist' is actually 'there'.

If there is a doubt that perhaps some sort of separate or controlling entity acrually exists somewhere then the job isn't done.


Love

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,

Like repeating a word many times our loud, it becomes meaningless, perhaps like asking questions in the abstract ?

Yes, that is it Jon.

Its practical really. Like elimination. Looking for evidence. Turning over any stones to see if something that had been assumed to 'really exist' is actually 'there'.

I understand the process, I just seemed to lost a grasp of the question. But your reframe below puts the potency back into it.

If there is a doubt that perhaps some sort of separate or controlling entity acrually exists somewhere then...

It's useful for me to expand variations on this: Is there anyone pulling the strings? Is there anyone or anything in charge? etc...

I was writing about thoughts a few days ago. I got some clarity to articulate earlier today. Thoughts can and frequently do impact upon feelings, and perceptions (visual, auditory) and other thoughts, and actions etc... SOMETIMES it feels like there is a 'thinker', which creats the illusion of controling, the illusion of self. I do actually know and believe that there is noone in control, no free will, but a sense of control/responsibility arises in the process.
I think it would be useful for me to put some more focus onto thoughts, as well as sense experiences.

For sure, the job isn't done.

Much Love
Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

SOMETIMES it feels like there is a 'thinker', which creats the illusion of controling, the illusion of self. I do actually know and believe that there is noone in control, no free will, but a sense of control/responsibility arises in the process.
I think it would be useful for me to put some more focus onto thoughts, as well as sense experiences.

It's good to know these things but also to feel it, understand from experience that no matter how much the illusion of a self may appear the entity that had seemed to reside at the heart of all this had never existed except as an idea.

Are even these ideas or impressions of a self, a 'me', created by a self?


love Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,
am I right to understand the suggestion as focus on the feeling, while knowing "that, no matter how much the illusion of a self may appear the entity that had seemed to reside at the heart of all this had never existed except as an idea".

Feel it and know it is an illusion?

Are even these ideas or impressions of a self, a 'me', created by a self?

There is no me or self, I guess it is a belief. A belief that held everything together in the past but now seems resistant to change.

Thanks Jon,
Mic

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,
I know I'm skipping the queue but it is helpful for me to update when I have something I want to capture or reinforce.

Your last suggestion seems to get to something. The just feeling and observing the feeling of presence of self, just looking at it, scrutinizing it with piercing vision, gazing at the exact edge of the perceived existence of the self.....and in the afternoon/evening that followed it seems to have shrunk, or dissolved, or depleted. But the potency of the illusion was (and to extend still is) diminished.
I'm under no illusions that it has quite the knack of re-inflating itself, especially when things get stressful (like when my car broke down tonight) but still.....

With love

Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

Thanks very much for your update. The looking you have been doing is great. Just what's needed. Its very good to see self dissolving.

But do you see how an expectation that 'self' will or must be made to disappear could form a kind of unresolved conflict or restless thought-loop?

Not to say that various periods of identification as a 'me' with some 'problems' is 'enjoyable, exactly.

Could it be that its not a struggle to 'get rid of self' but more seeing how illusion appears and plays out in life?

Who or what could make such thoughts not appear?

Love

Jon