Looking for a long time and quite confused.

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SomeOne
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Re: Looking for a long time and quite confused.

Postby SomeOne » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:34 pm

Hey Sarah,
Are you here, seeing over there and what is seen beyond (if that makes sense?).
This one.
Are you separate from that screen?
Yes. How could I be the screen..? That doesn't make sense somehow.
Or from that seeing?
Yes and no. There somehow is only seeing (and feeling/other senses/thoughts..), but it still feels to be "outside" somehow.
Does seeing happen even when attention is on something else?
Kind of. When it is noticed that attention was on something else, it snaps back to seeing. But yes, it as always there.

Best,
Felix

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Sarah7
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Re: Looking for a long time and quite confused.

Postby Sarah7 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:19 am

Hi Felix
How are you separate from seeing? Is seeing over there? Are you not part of it? Does the screen not contain possibly your hands, a bit of nose, a bit of eye socket? Where is the gap between you and the seeing?
Draw a line in mid air, from seer to seeing to seen. Then tell me whether there are three distinct 'things' there.
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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SomeOne
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Re: Looking for a long time and quite confused.

Postby SomeOne » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:02 pm

Hey Sarah,
Draw a line in mid air, from seer to seeing to seen. Then tell me whether there are three distinct 'things' there.
This one resonated with me. It seems to somehow make it obvious that there is only seeing. Because, one can't really point at seeing, because "everything" (so to speak) is seeing. And it's also really difficult to point at the seer. And the pointing is also just part of seeing. But when I point at something that is seen, it seems to make sense/there are thoughts saying - that that thing is "over there".

One other thing that always pops up again is the fact that feelings seem to be on the "inside", so there exists an "outside". And the idea comes up that there must be something that is "feeling" the sensations that come up, even though, again, I can't really separate the sensations from "me", from the experiencer. Having said that, it feels really funny now that there should be an "experiencer" - which would be (in my case) someone male. But that somehow doesn't make sense, that's a much too complicated explanation for the sensations that actually exist.

Thank you again! :)

Best,
Felix

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Sarah7
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Re: Looking for a long time and quite confused.

Postby Sarah7 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:00 am

Hey Felix!
So onto hearing then!

Notice the sounds you’re hearing, like the chirping of the birds. Notice the habitual thought, "Those are birds." Notice the habitual thought, "I hear that." Now just pay attention to how hearing happens. Take your time with it. Can you find a dividing line between the sound and the hearing of the sound? Are you doing the hearing? Or is it truer to say that hearing is just happening? Then look to see whether there's a dividing line between the hearing of it and a separate entity, a "you," doing the hearing. In other words, what does it mean when you say, "I'm hearing that sound"? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and hearing and a sound? Or is there just one experience of hearing, with no one as a hearer.

Look closely. Try it with various sounds. See if you can find a way to separate the sound from the hearing and the hearing from the hearer. Where does one start and the other end? So what do you see about the thought, "I'm hearing that sound"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience? What is a noise? Is that a label also? Is the sound there? Can you really know?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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SomeOne
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Re: Looking for a long time and quite confused.

Postby SomeOne » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:07 pm

Hey Sarah,

This has been an intense experience!
Can you find a dividing line between the sound and the hearing of the sound?
No.
Are you doing the hearing? Or is it truer to say that hearing is just happening?
It is just happening.
Then look to see whether there's a dividing line between the hearing of it and a separate entity, a "you," doing the hearing.
There doesn't seem to be. There is a lot of labeling going in, it's often instantaneous, and can be really hard to notice and to differentiate from the hearing itself.
In other words, what does it mean when you say, "I'm hearing that sound"?
It's an abstraction that is useful for talking about things, to communicate, in order to exchange information.
Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and hearing and a sound?
No. But there are a lot of thoughts labeling the situation. Or not, they just sometimes come up, just as attention shifts. It's hard to notice at times, but there have been glimpses of noticing that it's just hearing that's there.
Or is there just one experience of hearing, with no one as a hearer.
When I try to put my finger on the experience (so to speak), to pinpoint it, I sometimes notice that everything that I thought "me hearing the sound" to be is just hearing happening, and that I'm part of it, and not really separate from it. Simply because it happens/exists. There is no difference between the hearing and the hearer.
Look closely. Try it with various sounds. See if you can find a way to separate the sound from the hearing and the hearing from the hearer. Where does one start and the other end?
No, it doesn't work, they can't really be separated. It seems to be the same with thoughts or really any experience.
So what do you see about the thought, "I'm hearing that sound"?
I'm not really sure. Again, it seems to be just an abstraction, an experience that comes and goes.
Is it an accurate description of direct experience?
I was just wondering "how do I even know which part of direct experience is 'hearing'"? And then it kind of hit me that all of that is just labeling, compared to actual direct experience; hearing, seeing, just labels of direct experience itself. No, it isn't an accurate description of direct experience at all. But this realization also seems to be fleeting, and not really 100% steady.
What is a noise? Is that a label also? Is the sound there? Can you really know?
All just labels of direct experience. There is just direct experience, or rather there just "is", and that's it. No difference between me and the sound/whatever that experience is.

This still seems to be fleeting a little bit, but since the last two paragraphs, it feels like there was kind of a big realization. This has been full of pretty intense moments since I read your post on Monday, somewhat amazing :)

Thank you so much!

Best,
Felix

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Sarah7
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Re: Looking for a long time and quite confused.

Postby Sarah7 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:54 am

Hey Felix
Some great noticing going on here!
So onto touch and seeing if you can find any seperation between you, the touch and what is being touched.

Touch the table (or any object) with your eyes shut (or open). Pretend like it’s the first time you have ever touched a table. Go straight to the raw sensation/perception. What is your direct experience of this ‘table’? List your direct experience. Is it senses again? Is it thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the senses or the thoughts? Does the sensation of touching come with a shape, density, weight, size, colour, age or function? Does this sensation come with a ‘not me’ label or ‘other’ label? Is it one sensation/perception or two?
Look at how thoughts try and take over, try and explain, try and prove. Notice your memories or references with which you compare the experience. Sit with these sensations. Look at them. Look at the labelling e.g. table, hand. Look at the thoughts or story that attach at the end of this list if any. What is your direct experience of these words? Do they exist outside of thought? Are they sensations again? Are they just thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the sensation or the thoughts? Don’t pay attention to the thoughts just look at what they do, when they come in.
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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SomeOne
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Re: Looking for a long time and quite confused.

Postby SomeOne » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:29 pm

Hey Sarah,
Touch the table (or any object) with your eyes shut (or open). Pretend like it’s the first time you have ever touched a table. Go straight to the raw sensation/perception. What is your direct experience of this ‘table’? List your direct experience.
It's kind of difficult to describe in words. I would say it's a "feeling", but really the experience is just the experience. When I look really hard, a few times, I had an intense feeling where it was clear that there was no difference between "me" and the experience. Like there was nothing else but the experience. It's funny to try to put something like that experience of touching something into words, but at the same time, I feel as if writing this isn't really different from that either. Just writing/things going on.
Is it senses again? Is it thoughts again? Look very closely.
What I just described. Additionally, there is what feels like a strong undercurrent of thoughts, that makes it hard to differentiate between the raw sensation, and the perception/thoughts about it.
Which comes first the senses or the thoughts?
I noticed that there are some things that feel like they are almost a mix of a feeling and a thought. It's like a really subtle thought, but it's so quick, so habitual/fast, that it seems to be just like a feeling/sharp sensation. When I saw that, I also somehow saw that it's not different from "me" it's not "out there". It's part of "what's going on", so to speak. For now, it felt like a huge relief having seen that, and somehow having "understood" it.
Does the sensation of touching come with a shape, density, weight, size, colour, age or function?
It's just an experience. But at the same time, there are subtle descriptions of it appearing, like "hand-shaped", or "warm"/"cold". But the raw experience is just the raw experience.
Does this sensation come with a ‘not me’ label or ‘other’ label?
Somewhat. After what I wrote above, it feels obvious again and again that there somehow is just the experience.
Is it one sensation/perception or two?
What I wrote above, about the subtle feelings/emotions happening. So, it's more like a stream of experience, but what might be perceived as just "the experience", might be in truth be a thought about the experience. In that case, I'd rather say there are two things.
Look at how thoughts try and take over, try and explain, try and prove. Notice your memories or references with which you compare the experience. Sit with these sensations. Look at them. Look at the labelling e.g. table, hand. Look at the thoughts or story that attach at the end of this list if any.
Have been doing that. For sensations, these memories/references seem to almost be the feeling/sensation itself. And somehow, the really subtle label of "how it always has been/what it always is/simply the sensation of touching something/etc.".
What is your direct experience of these words?
This was a strong one! When I read that, I somehow really realized the "direct experience" of those words, as in, how reading/the moment was happening. There was nobody different from the experience/reading itself.
Do they exist outside of thought?
No, "table"/"hand" etc. are just words/coming up as labels for e.g. seeing. Or just because they come up, for some reason.
Don’t pay attention to the thoughts just look at what they do, when they come in.
This was also a good one. It made me somehow have a more "neutral" stance to thoughts, to get a clearer look at them. A lot of what they do is explaining/reasoning/just talking. Actually, thoughts aren't really bad, and I'm somehow not separate from them either.

Thank you so much again! :)

Best,
Felix

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Sarah7
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Re: Looking for a long time and quite confused.

Postby Sarah7 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:57 am

Hey Felix
Great noticing! Just want to stay with this a bit more.

Sit on a chair with your eyes closed. Feel the Direct Experience of sitting there. Notice thoughts thinking, labelling and explaining. Notice memory too. Notice sensations experiencing. Notice the sensation of bottom on chair – what is that – a thought? Notice the ‘me’ ‘mine labels e.g. this is my bottom – but look closely at that sensation labelling – is it yours, or just coming and going along with thoughts, ever changing. Is it the thought that wants to own? How many sensations do you notice? 2? One bottom sensation, and one chair sensation? How is that possible? Where does one sensation end and another begin? Locate that line. Can you feel that line? Or is that thought? Can you sense that line – or is that thought explaining
the sensation?
Eyes closed. Turn your attention to your skin. Do you have Direct Experience of it being outside?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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SomeOne
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Re: Looking for a long time and quite confused.

Postby SomeOne » Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:58 pm

Hey Sarah,
Notice the sensation of bottom on chair – what is that – a thought?
The sensation itself is just the sensation, but that's only an abstraction used for talking about it.The sensation itself is just part of the flow of things, but that's also just a description.
Notice the ‘me’ ‘mine labels e.g. this is my bottom – but look closely at that sensation labelling – is it yours, or just coming and going along with thoughts, ever changing.
No, it's not mine. I looked at a labeling thought that contained "I", and wondered whether that was "my" thought. If it's not "mine", then what does it matter? But it was just the thought itself, the flow happening. Other sensations that came up afterwards were also part of that flow. Things seem rather.. unowned.
Is it the thought that wants to own?
No, thought doesn't want to own, it's just thought - and it's also just trying to explain experience. Like, when I look at a book and think "that's my book"; it's actually the experience of seeing first, with a strong impression of that book, and then, that thought pops up, to explain it. But there is no "I" that achieves this knowledge, and can then "use" it or something. It's all part of the process/flow, nobody who "gains" anything.
How many sensations do you notice? 2? One bottom sensation, and one chair sensation? How is that possible? Where does one sensation end and another begin? Locate that line. Can you feel that line? Or is that thought? Can you sense that line – or is that thought explaining
the sensation?
It's just sensation. The sensation of the chair doesn't seem to be "outside", it's just there. Much like the sensation "of my bottom". It's just sensation. There isn't really a difference between them.
Eyes closed. Turn your attention to your skin. Do you have Direct Experience of it being outside?
No. I don't. There is just sensation. Anything else would be labeling.
Sit on a chair with your eyes closed. Feel the Direct Experience of sitting there. Notice thoughts thinking, labelling and explaining. Notice memory too. Notice sensations experiencing.
It's just sensation. And thoughts labeling. That's it, lol. :D

Thank you very much!! :)

Best,
Felix

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Sarah7
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Re: Looking for a long time and quite confused.

Postby Sarah7 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:59 am

Hi Felix!
Great! So have a go with taste and smell. Looking for seperation between you the tasting or smelling and the taste or smell itself. You get the gist of the questions from the last few exercises and this is a great excuse to indulge in stuff you like! Have fun! And report back what you notice!
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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SomeOne
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Re: Looking for a long time and quite confused.

Postby SomeOne » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:11 pm

Hey there,
Great! So have a go with taste and smell. Looking for seperation between you the tasting or smelling and the taste or smell itself. You get the gist of the questions from the last few exercises and this is a great excuse to indulge in stuff you like! Have fun! And report back what you notice!
Indulging was great :). As before, I couldn't find a separation between me and the tasting/smelling. It seems there can be 'liking' a taste/smell without there being someone who does the liking. That is, the liking is also just part of the flow, showing up from time to time. It's a quite strange thing to look at. I also focused on the other senses (seeing, feeling, etc.) again. Looking back, there wasn't really any control over *when* it happens, it just happens. I also paid attention to thoughts again - they so often look at things negatively/want them to be different, but the negativity is always in the thought itself, and it feels like there isn't really a reason for it. Also, there is always judgement/criticism of such a thought coming in immediately afterwards.

Thanks,
Felix

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Sarah7
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Re: Looking for a long time and quite confused.

Postby Sarah7 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:58 am

Hey Felix
Great stuff!

Ok, so now we are going to use what we have done with the senses to look at the body.

Are you in the body looking out, or the body as a whole or in certain part of the body? If all – then will you exist if you cut your hair, lose an arm or lose weight? If in a part – which part?
Is there a time when the self is not experienced? Did the self chose to not experience itself? Did it chose to come back at some point? Or did that just happen? When you had no sense of self – did you disappear?

What is our direct experience of the body? Is it the same as the idea we have about it? Do you see the whole or fragments that are collected together from memory to make a whole? And does that thought give us the impression of solidity, permanence and reality? Are the fragments ever seen without an aspect of the world? – e.g. I am writing this at my desk and I see my hands writing surrounded by desk stuff. As with the seeing exercise the total visual field – one seamless whole, made only of seeing. Is it thought that artificially divides? Is it as the TV screen, one seamless whole? From the point of view of the object – all items are separate, but what about from the point of view of the screen? Is anything separate or independent or is there just the screen?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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SomeOne
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Re: Looking for a long time and quite confused.

Postby SomeOne » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:07 pm

Hey Sarah!

I haven't spent as much time as I would have liked to with this, but I wanted to post an update anyways. Reason is probably that it's pretty intense, so it takes more dedication to stay with it (and I was also kinda busy).
Are you in the body looking out, or the body as a whole or in certain part of the body? If all – then will you exist if you cut your hair, lose an arm or lose weight? If in a part – which part?
There is a certain feeling throughout my body, and especially in the head. That feels like it's me. It's the thing that has expressions (facial expressions), it can feel good or bad, happy or sad. Looking at it, I noticed that this can't be the thing that's seeing, because it's just a feeling. But that's what I would say I am. At the same time, it's like I am talking about this thing, so it can't be me either. - This was quite a revealing experience, it feels like.
Is there a time when the self is not experienced? Did the self chose to not experience itself? Did it chose to come back at some point? Or did that just happen? When you had no sense of self – did you disappear?
It just happened. Thoughts subsided/focus was on seeing. Then at some point, the labeling comes back, and it's back before you know it. Did I disappear? - No, it was just part of the flow, not even there in the first place.
What is our direct experience of the body? Is it the same as the idea we have about it?
No, it's very different. Actually, direct experience of the body (e.g., seeing it) feels barely connected to the ideas we have about it - it's like it's something completely different.
Do you see the whole or fragments that are collected together from memory to make a whole?
I've had a few moments where I saw things more as a single "whole". But they feel impermanent, and seem only to be there when I focus on it. Then again, focus isn't really something that's controlled. - The "if I focus part" is just added on by thoughts!
And does that thought give us the impression of solidity, permanence and reality?
But that stuff somehow just exists in thoughts. It's hard to explain. Thoughts like "I've seen this before" just come by themselves. The experience of seeing/seeing itself is just itself. A thought like "I've seen this so often already" is just adding unnecessary stress.
Are the fragments ever seen without an aspect of the world? – e.g. I am writing this at my desk and I see my hands writing surrounded by desk stuff. As with the seeing exercise the total visual field – one seamless whole, made only of seeing.
It's a whole. - I'll take a break for now, as I'm pretty tired and it's getting late. Thanks so much! Again! :)

Best,
Felix

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Sarah7
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Re: Looking for a long time and quite confused.

Postby Sarah7 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:57 am

Hey Felix.
Never feel you have to rush here. I’d rather looking than answering for the sake of. And I understand if you are busy etc. It’s not a problem. Do you feel you want to look into this again?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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SomeOne
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Re: Looking for a long time and quite confused.

Postby SomeOne » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:05 pm

Hey Sarah,

thanks for your reply. The thing is, I noticed that I started to find excuses to not "look", and I wanted to not fall into that mindset. Also, whenever I write a reply, that's usually a time I spend looking very intensively. Well, I might have actually been busy as well, so I'm not really hard on myself here either :) Thank you for understanding!
Do you feel you want to look into this again?
I'll pick up the last part:
Is it thought that artificially divides? Is it as the TV screen, one seamless whole? From the point of view of the object – all items are separate, but what about from the point of view of the screen? Is anything separate or independent or is there just the screen?
From the point of view of the screen, there is only the screen. It's thought that creates history, assigns value, labels things, creates permanence, etc. It's thought that labels as "mine" or "not mine" or "something else" and "me". Thoughts, in that sense, are also not owned.

Best,
Felix


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