The Gate

Having now looked at other threads, it looks like you've actually gone pretty easy on me and been very tolerant in the face of my habit of conceptual expositions. Now my understanding of the "looking" process here is a little more refined.

It's been interesting to observe the ego-identifications and resistances arise relative to what appears to be a difference in understanding and communication styles.

Looking solely at what is directly arising at the six sense doors makes a lot of sense, and can clean up a lot of ignorance regarding how things really exist.

Part of that arising seems to me to include the "map of reality" and "evaluation" and "volitional tendencies or patterns" that inform the arising, and that is something I have tried to be inclusive of.

These processes or phenomenon are "real" in that they exist and can be observed, hence my reluctance to exclude them from the inquiry process.

My perspective was that what had been asked for had been delivered, and what there was to be realised has been realised, and I didn't really understand why it was being apparently rejected.

Thank you for your patience in bearing with me Sandra. x

Hi Donald! Thank you for your kind words.

Part of that arising seems to me to include the "map of reality" and "evaluation" and "volitional tendencies or patterns" that inform the arising, and that is something I have tried to be inclusive of.

Let's say each one of us has it's own map of reality, no? Do you have any reason to think yours is more accurate than the map of reality of someone that is following a different map? :)

What we may have in common is this experience (for lack of a better definition) that is going on here and now. And it's in this here and now experience that this seeing can be seen and described in a way that resonates to other person that knows how to look to this same here and now allness.

Sorry for being soooo insistent but this is not about your past posts, it's about your current seeing of what is here now. So, here are more questions (yay!):

• What do you see here and now that lets you know you are not a separate self? Or, in other words, what do you see here and now that lets you know a self isn't here?
  
  When it seems a self is real, what causes the self illusion?

Thank you for your patience and persistence Donald! I'm glad you didn't left the forum thinking we don't get what you are saying. We know how this can be hard to express and we are trying to understand if you see what we are pointing to.

Let's say each one of us has it's own map of reality, no? Do you have any reason to think yours is more accurate than the map of reality of someone that is following a different map? :)

Mercy, no! lol It's just a reference table of sorts, or filing system. A "map of reality" is not fixed or singular either. It's just part of the ground of what is arising, and is a completely changeable construct. None of them are really "accurate", they are like networks of abstracted data with only relative value and utility.

What do you see here and now that lets you know you are not a separate self? Or, in other words, what do you see here and now that lets you know a self isn't here?

light
mind

When it seems a self is real, what causes the self illusion?

ignorance

Thank you for your patience and persistence Donald! I'm glad you didn't left the forum thinking we don't get what you are saying. We know how this can be hard to express and we are trying to understand if you see what we are pointing to.

When I notice resistance arising from identification these days, it's generally much easier to see it for what it is than it has ever been. These ridiculous personified narratives can still arise, but the knowing that they are not true, and they are only constructs seems to be deepening in awareness, and penetrating into that "map of reality". Thanks for your patient help and kind understanding. x

I am bramah. There is nothing but bramah. It's that simple.

There is no god but man.

I'm actually done now. Thank you so much!

Thank you Donald. Take care.

Thank you Sandra!

Firstly, what has been "done" or realised, is that the identity-self, separate from the rest of what is arising is known to be a temporal constructed illusion. The "Self" or Brahma is however all that can be known to exist, and "I Am That". So is everything else.

Certainly, the identity-self can be seen here and now to be a conceptual phenomenon, and that seems more fitted to the scope of this particular forum, so I am happy to lay that aspect of things down for you here in a slightly less concise form than "light and mind".

What do you see here and now that lets you know you are not a separate self? Or, in other words, what do you see here and now that lets you know a self isn't here?

sensation of warmth in core of apparent "body"
observation of this specific sensation and exploration of how it actually exists
interpretation of sensation as neutral
attention moves to sensations relating to perceptions of lower arms and hands poised on keys
sound of fridge motor coming on and running
words at top of forum page are repeatedly noted
there is a process of apparent analysis of how words are "understood"
sound of YouTube video about brain hemispheres drifts in and out of attention
hand moves to mouse, adjusts it slightly and returns to keyboard

these processes just arise and pass; there is no valid or permanent "Donald" entity who is the doer.

looking at broadband router and the movement of the lights
looking back at screen
typing this sentence
awareness that there are currently no personal narratives arising in mind
noting that this is unusual
memory arises that there were several personal narratives that arose upon waking (I'm not going to go into what "memory" is here as it can't really be adequately covered by six-sense-door analytics)

these processes just arise and pass; there is no valid or permanent "Donald" entity who is the doer.

listening to conversation about the Wachowski sisters who created the Matrix movies.
looking around room
sense of recognition of objects in room
looking at brush used to clean keyboard
awareness of sensation of leg shaking in habitual pattern
memory of this program being copied from other family members
notice that many of the thoughts that arise have little to no word content, but rather arise as packets of impressions
notice that hand is stroking hipster beard tied up with hairband
notice that there was no "self" who performed the action
notice sub-lingual thought arise regarding to how this beard stroking has become a habitual pattern of the body
right hand moves to click mouse
left hand rises to stroke beard tassel
hands move back to keyboard
it is noticed that the body just does what it does and there is no separate valid persistent identity-self doing any of it

these processes just arise and pass; there is no valid or permanent "Donald" entity who is the doer.

When it seems a self is real, what causes the self illusion?

I take it you are looking for a fuller answer than "ignorance" but that is the short answer. :)

Belief that there is a permanent and true personal identity is what makes it seem real.
Belief that there is separation makes the identity-self seem real.
Not examining what is actually arising makes the identity-self seem real.

The identity-self is only a concept or a story within appearances, that does not exist in actual experience other than as a process that imagines it to exist.

The cause of the illusion is Brahma, or reality in it's totality Itself.

The process or habit of identification with thoughts, feelings, interpretations, and beliefs, as if they are true and relate to a true and persistent personal "self" identity that is separate from all else arising also makes the "self" seem to truly exist.

(messed up the formatting of the quotes in the above post, but hopefully not so that you can't follow it.)

Cheers!

"self" refers here specifically to the "sense of self" or "self-consciousness"

"me" or "self" is just an idea.

"self" is just another idea.

The entire conceptual universe exists in imagination, and seems to arise in relation to and including an "imagined" "self".

Right. This time "I" actually am done! lol

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

IT really helped to read a thread with Forgetmenot as guide as well, but the pointings from Sandra eventually got through.

The "self" is just an idea that arises and passes.

It's always been the case that the "sense of self" arose and passed.

I had no idea what you were talking about to be fair. Totally lost in concepts.

what was missing was the understanding that when the forum refers to "self" it means the "sense of self" or "self-awareness".

i could see the objects of arising were not a true self, but not so clearly that the "I", or "sense of self" was one of the objects.

Hi Donald. Thank you for the thank yous. It seems you are still having interesting realizations! That's great! How would you answer these questions now?

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Was staying away with a friend for a few days, so going to tackle this now I'm back with my beloved ergonomic keyboard.

Most of the answers I gave to these questions previously still stand, and I may copy/paste from there later...or not. ;)

The realisation has deepened and matured to the extent that I don't believe I would be able to communicate it all effectively, so I'm going to try sticking to the "six sense format" and common understanding of "self" that tends to be employed on this forum.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no separate "self" entity, and never was. There may appear to be at times, but it's just an appearance, and it's not remotely "separate" from anything.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It's a trick of the mind that exists as a conceptual division of all that is arising into "self" and "other". This seems to start as a survival strategy early in life that gives the appearance or sense of control and allows what is arising to be explained and dealt with conceptually.

The "sense of self", which also arises and passes, adheres to other processes such as thoughts, sensations, interpretations, and beliefs about what is arising.

As I see it now, it's like viewing a movie or game from first person perspective, and believing that I am the body in the game. The mind of the character contains thoughts and beliefs about what is happening that tend to relate to a "self" as an identity. None of these thoughts are true, as they are made of imagination.

"Donald" is no more real than the Easter Bunny. He only exists as some ideas about "Donald", within the rest of what is arising and passing.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It currently feels brilliant actually. Things have changed since starting this dialogue; matured might be a good way to put it. The engagement with the story of "Donald" is typically much lighter when it arises, and it passes faster, as the adhesion is just less sticky.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was really that when looking, ALL the ideas, beliefs, and perceptions were noticed to exist just as they are; they are neither "self" nor "other". When this is "seen" again and again, it appears to gain momentum.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Concepts. All concepts. There is neither free will nor predetermination. There is neither control nor freedom.

From the perspective of the apparent separate "self" these things may arise as appearances of decision, or intention, or choice, but since the "self" is only a transient identification with a cluster of thoughts and feelings it can not ever realistically be said to be running the show.

The only "doer" is the Doer, or the doing as a process.

Thoughts or beliefs relating to responsibility are only thoughts or beliefs relating to responsibility.

Nobody ever does anything, because there are no true persistent separate entities to do anything.

It APPEARS that there are, and there are believed to be, but those are just appearances and beliefs.

6) Anything to add?

"The Universe is the practical joke of the general at the expense of the particular"

This is the big one. However, I believe it may be beyond the scope of what you tackle in this forum. What you actually are, is nothing other than Brahma, engaged in pretending not to be, or engaged in forgetting what you actually are.

Obviously, as a separate identity, in the world of appearances, to claim "you" are personally "god" is a bit silly. The identity is the butt of the joke, and will never ever "get it". You are the totality.

I love him who wants to create over and beyond himself and thus perishes.

Thus spoke Zarathustra.

The "self" process arises and passes.