Seeking the end of Seeking

[Govinda]

Hi there, sorry for the tripple post. That was not intended.

What is different now than from when we started this process, paying close attention to any difference in the quantity or quality of suffering?

That`s a difficult one seemingly. Maybe thoughts are realized as fictional faster and therefore causing less suffering. Maybe there is more attention on direct experiencing and therefore less attention on thoughts that could cause suffering. Maybe thoughts in general and the "I-stories" appear less real and therefore causing less suffering. Thoughts especially the I-stories are more seen as unpersonal conditioning without anyone in control.

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

Good. Now give me an example of one thought that seems to persistently arise, and cause suffering.

[Govinda]

Hi there,

Now give me an example of one thought that seems to persistently arise, and cause suffering.

I think it is a bundle of thoughts, that are closely wired. One might be, that I am wrong, I do wrong, I am unworthy of life, love, good things.
On a conscious level most dominant is the "I have done wrong/ I should have done differently" thought maybe. Kind of "self-blaming".
As a side note I`m doing therapy as well.

[Govinda]

As a side note I`m doing therapy as well.

... not working out seemingly.

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

I am wrong.

Let's look at that. Write that down of a slip of paper, and put it directly in your view as you answer the following questions. Answer each question only after looking directly at the slip of paper, and examining the thought again. Answer the questions not on the content of the thought, such as some particular action or behavior that it represents, but simply the thought ITSELF, as just another object arising in consciousness, no different than a sound or perhaps a smell. In other words you will answer each question based on the simple concept that describes an action or behavior, not the action or behavior itself.

Again, look at the paper/thought for each question before answering.

01. Does that thought-IN AND OF ITSELF-know "right" from "wrong"?
02. Does that thought know who or what "you" are?
03. Does it know anything about your history?
04. Does it know anything about your future plans?
05. Does it know what is going on in your mind at this moment?
06. Does it know what time it is?
07. Does it have a "felt sense" of history or future? Can it imagine anything?
08. Does it know about other thoughts?
09. Does it know about the thought that came immediately before it?
10. Will it know anything about the thought that comes after it?
11. Does it have a mind of its own that knows what is going on right now, in the moment you are reading this?
12. Does it even still exist in any way other than a visual image or writing on a paper?
13. Does it possess even a tiny bit of the quality of omniscience?
14. Does it ACTUALLY provide a "feeling" of identity?
15. What-IF ANYTHING- does that most upsetting thought ACTUALLY "know"?
16. If it shows up a thousand times more in the future, will it ever "know" anything?
17. Has its' showing up repeatedly in the past "given" it any "quality" that it has now?

Look closely.
Take your time.

[Govinda]

01. Does that thought-IN AND OF ITSELF-know "right" from "wrong"?
02. Does that thought know who or what "you" are?
03. Does it know anything about your history?
04. Does it know anything about your future plans?
05. Does it know what is going on in your mind at this moment?
06. Does it know what time it is?
07. Does it have a "felt sense" of history or future? Can it imagine anything?
08. Does it know about other thoughts?
09. Does it know about the thought that came immediately before it?
10. Will it know anything about the thought that comes after it?
11. Does it have a mind of its own that knows what is going on right now, in the moment you are reading this?
12. Does it even still exist in any way other than a visual image or writing on a paper?
13. Does it possess even a tiny bit of the quality of omniscience?
14. Does it ACTUALLY provide a "feeling" of identity?
15. What-IF ANYTHING- does that most upsetting thought ACTUALLY "know"?
16. If it shows up a thousand times more in the future, will it ever "know" anything?
17. Has its' showing up repeatedly in the past "given" it any "quality" that it has now?

1. thought doesn`t know right from wrong
2. thought doesn`t know who or what "I" am
3. it does not know anything about my history
4. It does not know anything about my future plans.
5. It does not know what is going on in my mind at this moment.
6. It does not know what time it is.
7. It does not have any "felt sense" of history or future. It can not imagine anything
8. It does not know about other thoughts.
9. It does not know about the the thought that came immediately before it.
10. It will not know anything about the thought that comes after it.
11. It does not have a mind of its own knowing anything.
12. It does not exist in any way other than a thought or writing on a paper.
13. It does not possess even a tiny bit of the quality of omniscience.
14. It does not provide a "feeling" of identity.
15. that most upsetting thought does actually know nothing.
16. if it shows up a thousand times in the future it will never know anything.
17. it`s showing up repeatedly in the past has it given no quality that it could have now.

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

Before we move on, do you notice anything different about the thought now.

[Govinda]

Hi there,

Before we move on, do you notice anything different about the thought now.

the thought seemed to crumble somehow and I cried. Maybe it appears less real now.

Registered for a non duality retreat during new year and I regret it badly already. Think that was just the enlightenment carrot that pulled me there but it seems idiotic now to go there instead of being with friends. Feeling sad and lonely about it now. Not sure how to deal with it now and the "doer" appears very real again.

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

Good work.

Now repeat the exercise with the thought.

"I am Sebastian."

Do the exercise even more slowly this time.

[Govinda]

Hi again,
I switched to another new year retreat due to an invitation and furthermore were on holiday a week. Lost the exercises in these times. Feeling shame, guilt, regret. Thoughts say that I am not dedicated enough and therefore I failed at liberation.
Hope we can continue the process or better "complete" it.

Now repeat the exercise with the thought.

"I am Sebastian."

Do the exercise even more slowly this time.

01. Does that thought-IN AND OF ITSELF-know "right" from "wrong"?
02. Does that thought know who or what "you" are?
03. Does it know anything about your history?
04. Does it know anything about your future plans?
05. Does it know what is going on in your mind at this moment?
06. Does it know what time it is?
07. Does it have a "felt sense" of history or future? Can it imagine anything?
08. Does it know about other thoughts?
09. Does it know about the thought that came immediately before it?
10. Will it know anything about the thought that comes after it?
11. Does it have a mind of its own that knows what is going on right now, in the moment you are reading this?
12. Does it even still exist in any way other than a visual image or writing on a paper?
13. Does it possess even a tiny bit of the quality of omniscience?
14. Does it ACTUALLY provide a "feeling" of identity?
15. What-IF ANYTHING- does that most upsetting thought ACTUALLY "know"?
16. If it shows up a thousand times more in the future, will it ever "know" anything?
17. Has its' showing up repeatedly in the past "given" it any "quality" that it has now?

14: it seems to provide a feeling which is labeled as "me".
15: nothing
1-17 - (14+15): no

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

I failed at liberation.

No such thing as "failure" in this quest. That's the beauty of it. Every reply is progress.

I'll try to put something together for you later today.

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

Let's look at another thought from another angle.

Think that was just the enlightenment carrot that pulled me there ......

Write that down or visualize it, or both.

Does that thought-IN AND OF ITSELF STANDING ALONE- have a purpose?

1. Does it intend to "get enlightened"?
2. Does it have a history of seeking and inquiry with an end goal in mind?
3. Did it "propose" retreats in the past?
4. Did it "propose" going to a retreat this time?
5. Did it "intend" for you to be more "dedicated"?
6. Did it "see" a "conclusion" or outcome to this retreat?
7. Did it collude with the "I am Sebastian" thought to go to a retreat?
8. Did it have a long-standing history and joint mission with the "I am Sebastian" thought to 'get enlightened"?
9. Did it have any more knowledge of anything than the "I am wrong" thought?

Now obviously I'm taking things to absurd conclusions here, but absurdity frequently highlights reality. None of this is to say that seeking isn't going on. But I am not pointing to the noble goals of humanity here, in this moment, in this dialogue. That can all come later. I am simply pointing to that which causes the discomfort that drives the seeking energy, that which is labeled "a purpose."

Is that "Sebastian's purpose" or simply a thought about "Sebastian's purpose" ?

Look closely.
Write what comes up.

[Govinda]

Does that thought-IN AND OF ITSELF STANDING ALONE- have a purpose?

1. Does it intend to "get enlightened"?
2. Does it have a history of seeking and inquiry with an end goal in mind?
3. Did it "propose" retreats in the past?
4. Did it "propose" going to a retreat this time?
5. Did it "intend" for you to be more "dedicated"?
6. Did it "see" a "conclusion" or outcome to this retreat?
7. Did it collude with the "I am Sebastian" thought to go to a retreat?
8. Did it have a long-standing history and joint mission with the "I am Sebastian" thought to 'get enlightened"?
9. Did it have any more knowledge of anything than the "I am wrong" thought?

No to all. Thought does not think or do anything.

Is that "Sebastian's purpose" or simply a thought about "Sebastian's purpose" ?

It's just a thought.


What do you mean is it that causes the discomfort that drives the seeking energy that is labeled "a purpose"? This paraphrasing seems to create some confusion here and freedom.

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

This paraphrasing seems to create some confusion here and freedom.

Less important what I mean. More important what it means to you. Explain "freedom."

[Govinda]

Less important what I mean. More important what it means to you. Explain "freedom."

Freedom is the absence of truth of thought, the illusionary essence of thought.