Meditator wants to break through

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Ken,

I felt a little unsure of how to express myself

Ok, don't worry about this. Just express yourself as accurately as possible. i will query how you use a word if there is doubt.
i am interested in what happens for you as you contemplate a question, as well as the answer.

The true nature of the self ultimately is "big self"

..and what is your relationship to "big self" ?

Consciousness which pervades all universes.

Language here implies that there is a universe and there is a Consciousness and that there is an interaction between them (pervasiveness). Is this how you mean it ?

Then there is the "relative world" the "little self" which "doesn't exist" ......but in relative terms does exist.

Say a bit more about this.

If none of this "exists"

Do you mean "exists" objectively ?
How do you determine "exists" ?

love

vince

[budgie]

Hi Vince:

..and what is your relationship to "big self" ?

Ultimately I am big self. There is no barrier or duality. Sometimes it "seems" that I am small self when in thought. Small self is thought created.

Language here implies that there is a universe and there is a Consciousness and that there is an interaction between them (pervasiveness). Is this how you mean it ?

Yes. To refine it a bit more, there is consciousness. There is the appearance of a world, a "universe" or an "experience"
These labels are thoughts.

Then there is the "relative world" the "little self" which "doesn't exist" ......but in relative terms does exist.
Say a bit more about this.

Ok for an immediate example: we are using names on this forum to point to "individuals" in the relative world.
An other example. Let's say I have a doctor or dentist's appointment tomorrow at 10am. Where is this appointment in actual experience?? I get this. But you understand my meaning. It points to a "future" event. Where is the future in actual experience. Just a thought.
I use the term relative world to talk about the seeming world of individuals and objects and their relationships.
The Buddha was all about "no self" but he also left instructions how monks and lay people should act in the relative world.

Do you mean "exists" objectively ?
How do you determine "exists" ?

No not objectively. So again in everyday language I can say that a world exists, that this pencil exists. But these are words pointing to something which can be talked about in other terms. "Pencil" is just a thought. There is an experience and it is labeled pencil. But in "everyday" relative world talk you can ask me to give you the pencil. I will know what you are talking about. Doesn't matter if I exist or the world exists or the pencil exists objectively.

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Ken,

Ultimately I am big self.

Is this a deduction, or second hand knowledge, or something that you have experienced ?

There is no barrier or duality.

How is this experienced ?

Small self is thought created.

Isn't big self also thought created too ?

there is consciousness. There is the appearance of a world, a "universe" or an "experience"
These labels are thoughts.

i guess we are at a point where we are defining how to use words in this investigation, so bear with me here. You say that "yes, there is consciousness", then you say that it is a thought label. Does it exist as something ? ..or what does the label point to ?

I use the term relative world to talk about the seeming world of individuals and objects and their relationships.

Ok, got it. What most people call the real world, you call the relative world. i quite like that.
While we are here; do you see that every relative person experiences a unique relative world ? ..or do you think that it is the same for every body ?

There is an experience and it is labeled pencil. But in "everyday" relative world talk you can ask me to give you the pencil. I will know what you are talking about. Doesn't matter if I exist or the world exists or the pencil exists objectively.

Good stuff.
You seem to have a good handle on this stuff. What is missing ?

love

vince

[budgie]

Morning Vince:

Ultimately I am big self.Is this a deduction, or second hand knowledge, or something that you have experienced ?

Mostly a combination of second hand knowledge (reading, dharma talks, satsang,) and something that I have experienced. The experiential piece is a sense of expansion and connection to everything. This experience is not 24/7....just "spots of time"

There is no barrier or duality.
How is this experienced ?

So in these moments of expansion there is no sense of "inside" and "outside". It's as if the experienced world is contained in my consciousness. The world exists "within".....these words point to the experience, I'm not sure how well.

Small self is thought created.
Isn't big self also thought created too ?

I would say that the concept of "big self" is thought created but I'm trying to describe an actual experience of oneness and connection

there is consciousness. There is the appearance of a world, a "universe" or an "experience"
These labels are thoughts. i guess we are at a point where we are defining how to use words in this investigation, so bear with me here. You say that "yes, there is consciousness", then you say that it is a thought label. Does it exist as something ? ..or what does the label point to ?

This is where words get especially tricky. Any word would seem to be a thought label. There is the label "consciousness" which for me points to other words such as "awareness" and "experience" or "mind".

While we are here; do you see that every relative person experiences a unique relative world ? ..or do you think that it is the same for every body ?

Yes I do see this. To use LU speak, I only see what's in my actual experience, but I assume that every relative person experiences things from their point of view.

There is an experience and it is labeled pencil. But in "everyday" relative world talk you can ask me to give you the pencil. I will know what you are talking about. Doesn't matter if I exist or the world exists or the pencil exists objectively.
Good stuff.
You seem to have a good handle on this stuff. What is missing ?

Well, LU and so much else points to, a process where there is a more stable, sustained awareness of no self. I spend a lot of time in my own thoughts, ego, "small self" and stress seems to contract me even more. But I don't really know what liberation or "waking up" is except for the brief moments of connection to the oneness I described earlier. I've heard it described as "sustained non-dual" awareness. I don't experience the sustained part. Intellectually I get it, as far as I can tell.
Looking at the icon that you use of the image of the goblet which can also be seen as two faces I have this idea that I just need to sort of see through something like that and there will be an "aha!" moment
I wanted

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ken, i just read your post, and was overwhelmed by an emotion that i label 'knowing'. Knowing where you are at. Of course, it is my imagining that what i experienced is really similar to what i imagine that you are experiencing.
Firstly, let's get this out of the road;

I have experienced. The experiential piece is a sense of expansion and connection to everything. This experience is not 24/7....just "spots of time"

The concept of impermanence resonates here. i've yet to witness a contradiction to this. NO EXPERIENCE comes without planned obsolescence.
NOTHING IS PERMANENT.
Is the difference between an intellectual understanding and an 'aha!', that one of them triggers change ?
Is that change experienced initially, as a yielding? A joyful surrender?
Has this ever happened to you ?
You have trust. There is a total openness. The unknown is welcomed, because there is a trust that everything will be fine.
There is also the knowing that any speculation (for that's all it could be) about the future, would probably distort it.
..and too, a knowing that the moment a thought arises about the present, that it was reviewing. That it wasn't the actual experience, but a memory of it.
This makes it impossible to change. By the time awareness is activated, it is finished. A past event.
So, what do we have ?
THIS !
THIS IS IT!
With any opinion about it, creating a new IT.
A new THIS.
What happens when THIS is openly welcomed ? When there is no judgement (opinion) of it ? (slough off karma)
THIS IS IT!THIS IS IT!THIS IS IT!THIS IS IT!.....

love love

vince

[budgie]

Hi Vince,
I really appreciate your last post and am still working with it. So I may post again this evening if I have more to say.

Is the difference between an intellectual understanding and an 'aha!', that one of them triggers change ?
Is that change experienced initially, as a yielding? A joyful surrender?

So sometimes it seems that the Aha! moment contains a certain intellectual understanding but I associate the Aha! with an emotional, visceral, embodied experience. So the intellectual understanding might be "ok, I get it it's all one, and I am that" where the aha! is OMG IT''S ALL ONE AND I AM THAT"......so as I write this I can see the difference... but not sure about what change is triggered. These experiences do change the viewpoint and can be recalled. And yes, there is a yielding and a surrender aspect to the experience.
I can use the example of the time I went on a hike with my brother and had this experience where the outer became the inner: all the rocks and trees were inside and the mind was moving but I wasn't going anywhere even though the body was moving. So I can look back at that experience and know that it changed my viewpoint, and I can look at reality in a different light after that experience....but I kind of put it as a "past experience"

By the time awareness is activated, it is finished. A past event.
So, what do we have ?
THIS !

So not sure if I totally grasped all that you were pointing at in your post. So there are these past "events" or experiences that I had that led to a new or a deeper understanding but I am in the present moment and can see past and future as ideas in the "now" .......
my mind is on the fence I get it and don't get it. It almost seems to be a choice. It's almost like just to say the words: I AM THAT IN ALL CAPS! and to read what I just typed conjures "it" up.

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Ken,

my mind is on the fence I get it and don't get it. It almost seems to be a choice. It's almost like just to say the words: I AM THAT IN ALL CAPS! and to read what I just typed conjures "it" up.

Yes, just let yourself fall in the direction of beautiful surrender. Total acceptance that what life is presenting to you at this moment, is the totality of IT. There is nothing more than your current experiencing. THIS!
Nothing to find. Nothing to do. Just relax and appreciate the mystery of THIS.

Love

vince

[budgie]

Hey Vince:

Yes, just let yourself fall in the direction of beautiful surrender. Total acceptance that what life is presenting to you at this moment, is the totality of IT. There is nothing more than your current experiencing. THIS!
Nothing to find. Nothing to do. Just relax and appreciate the mystery of THIS.

Yes! Can't argue with this. Will spend some time taking this in.

[budgie]

Hi Vince: So I have been working with the idea of surrendering to What IS and just looking to see how ego/self is arising and what stories I am telling myself about experience and seeing that life is going on pretty much the same. What is new since working with LU is a question that I ask myself from time to time "who is it that is creating this situation" ...."who is it that is experiencing this"..... and this questioning seems to chip a way little by little the seeming solidity of the sense of self

So I didn't see a new post from you for a day....let me know if there is something you suggest me to work with....any questions or pointers....

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ken,

a question that I ask myself from time to time "who is it that is creating this situation" ...."who is it that is experiencing this".....

What is the intention, when asking this question ?

So I didn't see a new post from you for a day....

i was giving you room to "spend some time taking this in."
If i look at the statement "taking this in", i wonder if this means to internalize it, and does this mean, establish a new belief ?

Can you see that whatever description or explanation arises about any situation, about anything that life offers, that it is the totality, the all of 'what IS' ?
Whatever meaning it is given. Whatever morality is invoked. Whatever might be the consequence. It is THIS. THIS is IT.
There is nothing else. ..and it is already past tense. Finished. No chance to change it.
Nothing to do but enjoy the ride.
Can you see this ?

love

vince

[budgie]

Hi Vince:

budgie wrote:
a question that I ask myself from time to time "who is it that is creating this situation" ...."who is it that is experiencing this".....What is the intention, when asking this question ?

So the intention is that when I see that the illusion of the separate self is asserting itself I ask the question as a way of reminding myself not to "fall for" or get too involved with the story line. For example if I am getting angry about something I could ask myself "who is it that is getting angry".....I've only been doing this for a few weeks but it seems that it helps to break up or diffuse the formation of a sense of self.

If i look at the statement "taking this in", i wonder if this means to internalize it, and does this mean, establish a new belief ?

I see what you are saying and I too do not want to establish this as a "belief" in the sense of it being a dogma or something to argue with others about. I see it as more of a way of seeing through an illusion.

Can you see that whatever description or explanation arises about any situation, about anything that life offers, that it is the totality, the all of 'what IS' ?
Whatever meaning it is given. Whatever morality is invoked. Whatever might be the consequence. It is THIS. THIS is IT.
There is nothing else. ..and it is already past tense. Finished. No chance to change it.
Nothing to do but enjoy the ride.
Can you see this ?

Yes, I see this. So what to say? Chop wood and carry water. Have I been through a gate? I get "relax, this is it, enjoy the ride"....

There is a feeling of wanting to say "yes but"......yes but, I don't feel any different, ....or other story lines

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Ken,

So the intention is that when I see that the illusion of the separate self is asserting itself I ask the question as a way of reminding myself not to "fall for" or get too involved with the story line

i would call this symptom relief. While the outcome is good, it doesn't do anything about the conditions that contribute to you getting sucked into the story line.
Because it is working, keep doing it. ..but add to it an ingredient that will directly contribute to changing the neuronal pathways that are established with this habit.
The really critical point in this process is one that you have been overlooking, and that is the RECOGNITION that you had fallen for the story. It is the recognition that you were lost, that brings you out of the quagmire of emotion.
Celebrate that recognition with a laugh.
This will change the conditioning.
A good laugh (fake it if necessary) floods the body with oxytocin and neutralizes any stress hormone present.
Another aspect of it, is that it aborts the process that you were about to enter. This robs it of the satisfaction of completing, which negated any reward you might have got from it, which accelerates the abandoning of that habit.
It will develop a witness part of the mind which will evaluate the thought streams as useful or 'to be ignored'.

There is a feeling of wanting to say "yes but"......yes but, I don't feel any different, ....or other story lines

i presume that it's not actually a feeling (sensation) but a thought. A doubt thought. Is this accurate ?
They almost always appear. Are they more than just another thought ? Are they useful thoughts ?
Remember that familiarity is a survival strategy. The organism pulls away from discomfort. From anything that it too different from what it is used to.
If you recognize that whatever life presents (THIS) is the only reality, and that everything else is conceptual, then what else is there to say ? (i'm not shutting down investigation by saying this)

love

vince

[budgie]

Hi Vince:

The really critical point in this process is one that you have been overlooking, and that is the RECOGNITION that you had fallen for the story. It is the recognition that you were lost, that brings you out of the quagmire of emotion.
Celebrate that recognition with a laugh.

Yes, I think a laugh would be the best response to seeing that I was lost in the ego....I will work with this

budgie wrote:
There is a feeling of wanting to say "yes but"......yes but, I don't feel any different, ....or other story linesi presume that it's not actually a feeling (sensation) but a thought. A doubt thought. Is this accurate ?
They almost always appear. Are they more than just another thought ? Are they useful thoughts ?
Remember that familiarity is a survival strategy. The organism pulls away from discomfort. From anything that it too different from what it is used to.
If you recognize that whatever life presents (THIS) is the only reality, and that everything else is conceptual, then what else is there to say ? (i'm not shutting down investigation by saying this)

Yes, it would be more accurate to say that it a thought rather than a feeling and I can see that they are not useful thoughts, in fact it is those very thoughts that are what have been holding me back.
As far as not shutting down the investigation. So there is the thought that "hey it would be nice to be done with this investigation" and also the thought "wait, I don't want to jump the gun".... so I would say that since you are the guide I will leave it up to you where you want to go.
I would say that there is this "sense" (not sure if you would call it a thought, feeling) that the only thing keeping me from being done are the thoughts that come up....and I recognize them as just thoughts. Also there is this idea that all I have to do to get off the fence is just to dive into the THIS
So it seems like it's just a simple choice....I can say that I'm ready to take the plunge or that I am taking the plunge as I type this...
This is it. Yay!

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Ken, something that came to mind as i read your post, is that seeing through this illusion (that an independent self exists) is (it's not a great analogy), is that this is like finishing school with the qualifications to get into university.
This is a foundation upon which work starts in earnest. From a Buddhist perspective, it might be likened to Stream Entry.
Now, 5 years after waking up, i still have instances of conditioning (ego) arising. Although they are usually seen to be happening within seconds, they still happen. i expect that this is a lifetime job. i know of nobody that has reached the lofty heights alluded to in the popular literature.

that the only thing keeping me from being done are the thoughts that come up....and I recognize them as just thoughts.

The only thing that would indicate that you are not done, it if you get lost in thought stories, without recognizing that you are.

Also there is this idea that all I have to do to get off the fence is just to dive into the THIS

This broke me up (lol) Although i know what you mean. What you said is like someone in the swimming pool, saying "I need to jump in..."
THIS includes the idea that it is not THIS.
NOTHING to DO. Just LOOK. You are already where you want to be.

Run through these questions for me and we will see if there is any remaining identification..
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?


love

vince

[budgie]

Hi Vince,

something that came to mind as i read your post, is that seeing through this illusion (that an independent self exists) is (it's not a great analogy), is that this is like finishing school with the qualifications to get into university.

I think this is a good analogy. I don't expect to be "done" with my education...and appreciate the chance to answer the questions that will get me into University!

1)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there isn't now or ever. There was the illusion of the sense of a separate entity and thoughts may appear indicating that there is a sense of self but the illusion is seen through.

2)

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

This is something that arose in early childhood, probably around the age of 3 or 4 when social roles are reinforced and sink in. The illusion comes up as thought. Thoughts are linked together and a story line is created and believed in (by more thinking) and this is construed as a sense of self. I would say that the sense of self does vary. There can be a more solidified sense of self in certain situations (self consciousness while speaking before a group, thinking about personal history while writing a resume, etc)......or it can lessen or disappear (when thoughts subside in meditation....while swimming in the ocean waves or listening to music) or just relaxing in nature to WHAT IS.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It's more of a confirmation of what I have experienced before and seeing it in a new light. More of a sense of having the confidence to set aside the thinking/seeking, just relaxing into THIS and knowing that nothing else needs to be added. It's just to be in the flow of life without constructing a palace of thoughts about "enlightenment" or some future event that I have read about.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

So there was a time in the guiding process that you (Vince) started to write things like:

You have trust. There is a total openness. The unknown is welcomed, because there is a trust that everything will be fine.
There is also the knowing that any speculation (for that's all it could be) about the future, would probably distort it.
..and too, a knowing that the moment a thought arises about the present, that it was reviewing. That it wasn't the actual experience, but a memory of it.
This makes it impossible to change. By the time awareness is activated, it is finished. A past event.
So, what do we have ?
THIS !
THIS IS IT!

It wasn't this quote exactly but at that point I knew that I was there and there were subsequent things you said that kind of "gave me permission" to drop the seeking and just be with WHAT IS.
So it was a permission that I gave myself to let go...

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

No I don't see a self that decides, intends, chooses, etc. There are things that can be labeled (by thought) as decisions, choices, etc. but there is no self behind them. There was one exercise with turning the hand back and forth that was done earlier with Kay and that showed me that the hand could move without a decision....the hand was just moving and no "self" was in control. So I started to look at more and more apparent choices and decisions in that light and could see that nobody was in control.

6) Anything to add?

Nothing to add at the moment. Of course I am open to any more questions and will glad to revisit any of the previous 5 questions

This is exciting!