The Gate

Good evening Birdman, after reading your post last night, i was literally dumbstruck. Literally. i had nothing to say.
It seemed that you had it all completely sorted.
i've been thinking about it (off and on) for the past 24hours, and what comes to mind is this;

maybe a deepening of awareness..? I guess it is close at hand to believe that something is being missed

Deepening happens. It can't not happen. It takes nothing special. No effort. It happens just as breathing happens.
Sure there will persist a feeling that something is being missed. ...for a while.
It will continue until conditions change.
That is the conditioned habit of looking into the future for something that is imagined to be missing.
Until that condition is replaced with the conditioning that everything, absolutely everything, that is actual, is present NOW.
When seeking is replaced with wonder.
Wonder at the amazing and inexplicable nature of what life offers.
Of course there is (always) more. ...but the paradox is that more (deepening) only presents when THIS is related to as ALL THAT IS.
..or to say it from the negative perspective; Seeking obscures revelation.
Surrender, acceptance reveals.
..and coming back to the ramifications of the realization that the self consisted entirely of the responses to stories - what choice is there ?
Anything other that complete surrender, is to add further chapters to the story of self.

love

vince

Dear Vince!

What will happen with our conversation? I can´t think of any questions just now, but I´m sure there will be..

Birdman with gratitude

I can´t think of any questions just now, but I´m sure there will be..

Here's one; What is your current belief(s) about the existence of a Self ? What is it ? How does it work ?

love

vince

Here's one; What is your current belief(s) about the existence of a Self ? What is it ? How does it work ?

I´m not sure what the term "Self" points at. Have a quote from Wiki here:

Two types of self are commonly considered - the self that is the ego, also called the learned, superficial self of mind and body, an egoic reation, and the Self which is sometimes called the "True Self", the "Observing Self", or the "Witness".

I suppose "reation" is "relation", "reaction"?
I´d love to try and give answer but first i must be sure we mean the same thing.

Hugs
Birdman

Here's one; What is your current belief(s) about the existence of a Self ? What is it ? How does it work ?

If I understand your "Self" correctly is the "Self" a relative to here/now or awareness. It is the indestructible grain of the Absolute, the Unmanifested, God, Brahman or whatever we want to call it that resides in all beings. This tends to approach religious matters, so I guess it's a matter of personal disposition and cultural belonging what we want to call it. When we say we share the same one life it is the Self that we share, the spark of the Absolute in us.
For me this thought is beautiful, almost compelling, however I prefer not to put a label on It. I once heard that the native population of North America called it "The Great Spirit". I like those words, they are open. But better for me is just; "That".
So - "How does it work?". I have no idea whatsoever! It is too immense to even try to grasp and to speak with Rhett Butler in Gone with the wind: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" ;-)

I hope I have not totally misunderstood you.
Turn in-time here
Warm hugs
Birdman

Good morning Birdman. Ah, i responded to your first post, then discovered your second one when i submitted it. Here is the first. The second is after it.

I´m not sure what the term "Self" points at. Have a quote from Wiki here:

i get the need for definition, however what i wanted is what already existed for you.
Now that you have brought Wiki into it, your ideas have changed.
What i want is what they have settled on, even if it is confusion.
Firstly describe what you currently understand a Self to be, then elaborate on how it works and how it evolved.

love

vince

response to second post;

If I understand your "Self" correctly

No, what i wanted is the Self that you pointed to when you referred to "Me, I, Mine, My, etc"
Not a theory about it, but the actual daily life referencee. (i love making up new words)

love

vince

Here's one; What is your current belief(s) about the existence of a Self ? What is it ? How does it work ?

No, what i wanted is the Self that you pointed to when you referred to "Me, I, Mine, My, etc"
Not a theory about it, but the actual daily life referencee.

Hi! Sorry for messing up. Here´s another try. (I see now while going through it that there is theory here as well...)

"Me" doesn´t have an existence that one can point to. It is thoughts about "me", the body, thoughts about memory traces, thoughts about a projected future, worries, resentment, achievements. Thoughts appear, for shorter or longer time but when seen that they don´t constitute what I really am and are dismissed, they subdues. But as a fly in the bedroom they have a tendency to keep on coming back.

The origin of "me" is a mechanism that protects the small child when it realises that it is a separate being, not attached to the mother. It becomes an entitiy, has a name and an age, can do things and relate to its surroundings. As it grows up layers and layers of "me" are created to further strenghten the person and it ends up with the person more or less being "owned" by its "me". "Me" is needy and impatient. It wants things, at wants appearances, achievements, diplomas, but most of all, it wants the future because here is always something that is not as it should in the present situation. In near or far future lies the end point where "me" will be perfect and complete.

"Me" is needed to keep a record, to perform tasks, to learn new things (and to write this) but it has to be held in a short leash or else it will take over the the "show".

As for my personal experiences, the "daily referencee" has gone very quiet lately. It´s like a fire has been made for night that keep predators away. Sparkling eyes can be seen in the shadows but they keep distance. For especially prying thoughts can a silent "nothing!" can help and it usually brings me straight back to awareness. A help is also the feeling of "I am" and Mooji´s words "Be where the seeing arises from, where even the seeing is being seen. Just be there. This is your home."

This is what i can come up with now, I suspect you are not satisfied...
Hugs
Birdman

Good evening Birdman,

Sorry for messing up.

There was no "messing it up". i just wasn't clear about what i was asking.

I see now while going through it that there is theory here as well...

This is a valuable skill. It's responding to theories (stories) as though they were actual, that is the main condition for suffering.

I suspect you are not satisfied...

This story is inaccurate.

This is what i can come up with now

i liked it. It is lucid and shows an appropriate relationship with the story of a Self.
Give me a paragraph on Meaning, on Purpose and Responsibility.

love

vince

Give me a paragraph on Meaning, on Purpose and Responsibility.

Hi Vince!

"Meaning" in the sense "meaning of life" is a story that the mind makes up, often to find a "purpose" or put up with "life". There is no inherent "meaning" in this, what is referred to as life. Mind has no limits in the fabrication of "meanings", probably at least a bouquet for each human being.
Life happens, evolves and dissolves completely without purpose or final aim. Life just is, and it happens only "now", which has no extension in time.
"Responsibility" is a story made up by the same "Mind". It can be hard to digest on the level of mind but since there de facto exist no "Me" in any form, there is actually no one to take responsibility and no one to be responsible to.

Btw Vince, is there anything that is more difficult than resting in awareness together with (close) people and in malls? Didn't Sartre say something like "Hell is other people...

Hugs
Birdman

Good morning Birdman,

"Meaning" in the sense "meaning of life" is a story that the mind makes up,...

Great answers.

is there anything that is more difficult than resting in awareness together with (close) people and in malls?

This is where the story of Self becomes useful.
'resting in awareness' is (probably) not appropriate, (as the foreground) when you are interacting with (apparent) others.
Although the conditioned responses to those situations will change with practise, to try to force a certain focus is to be divorced from NOW.
Give me your take on this question; What is the actuality with an experiencer experiencing the experienced ?

love

vince

Oh dear, didn't get a notice from the server on your answer so had to check, and sure,there was one! Late now, deal with it asap.
Hugs Birdman

Give me your take on this question; What is the actuality with an experiencer experiencing the experienced?

Dear Vince,

This seemingly (for the me/mind) complex event can from another view point - in awareness - be seen as One whole. In fact, all there is - Life in this present moment. And since Life in actuality is only that, the "complex" and multifaceted issue has shrinked to "That which Is". No extension in time axis, but arch by arch of depth.

Hugs
Birdman

Good evening Birdman, hmm, your answer is a bit cryptic. Let's try this from a slightly different angle.
When you are experiencing, do you experience an experiencer ? Do you experience something experienced ?

love

vince

When you are experiencing, do you experience an experiencer ? Do you experience something experienced ?

Dear Vince! Here comes a new try to dive into the realm of words.

Experiences are dissolving all the time. It is all fleeting. When I am Aware (and that is by no means always the case) there are no thoughts, no object and no experiencer - just one whole happening with no division. In everyday life, when interacting with people there are thoughts arising, judging and old conditioning surface. But more and more seldom and usually not forceful. Thought and language divide parts where in actuality there are none. So, there is in reality no "me" or "experiencer", however there is language and conditioning. In simple presence, without thought there is only seeing, hearing... No separation. Thought/language is needed to evoke the subject, me, the experiencer.
This whole subject is cryptical and I hope I make sense.

Yours truly,
Birdman

ps. will PM you a story, report, occurrence, happening or whatever we can call it

Just an addendum to last post:

When I am Aware (and that is by no means always the case)...

What I mean is that Awareness is always there but not in the foreground.