Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

Thanks...I'm going to get some sleep but I'll get back to tomorrow.

Thank you,

Ty

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

It's starting to become more clear. When there becomes a dialogue in the head that can get confusing. I'm at a point where there's a reminding that no one's hear but who would do the reminding. It seems like it can be a big trap.

Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

There's no-one to remind and no-one to be reminded, true. But, there IS a thought about a person reminding themselves. This can result in more thoughts, shifts of attention, body actions, etc. That process carries on. What changes is that the thought containing a conviction that "I am doing this" has changed to more a doubting thought or has weakened.

If there is confusion, you can always come back to what's really there. An apparent body, sights, sounds, body sensations, and thoughts giving a narrative. Just keep on looking.


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Hi Steve,

I'm still looking. I would say I know there is no ME, there's just a habit that seems to be in play. Thoughts can be seductive especially if they bring fear. I know the meaning of the fear isn't real...

I will continue to bring myself back to what is actually real and hopefully the thoughts will take on less of a meaning.

Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

Great! It takes a little bit of perseverance. You're learning to look at life. Yes, thoughts are seductive and subtle, but they can't be avoided. All you need to do is to see them for what they are. Even just thinking "that's a thought" is helpful.

Try the exercise now where you go into a place with lots of movement and look at experience as a whole. Of course you can do this "being in the moment" anywhere, any time. Really enjoy the small things. Everything you see, you are seeing for the first time. Don't believe thoughts that say it's familiar.


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

I really enjoyed the excercise at just looking at experience as a whole. Labels are beginning to fall off and it is very cool to see. Seeing that a tree isn't a label at all but a vibrant, green, magical creation is great. The label of ME is definately loosining up a bit. There is no expectation of what all of this will look like, there is just a looking and seeing how life plays out. The expectation of awaiting for an aww ha moment is gone and looking is all thats left.

tx TY

[blackh]

Ty,

Check it.
Is there a gap between experienced and experiencer? Is there an experiencer, a centre to which life happens?

Remember there are (as the Buddhists put it) six gates: sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch and mind/thoughts. Thoughts are just another sense.

If you can see that "I" is a thought, and that thoughts are just a "flat" stream of information - they can't think, then you're seeing it already. But you need to recognize it. Thoughts may tell you otherwise - there's a defence mechanism at work here, so you'll need to focus hard. In truth, there's no-one to go through the gate, so there's nothing you need to do or can do.


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

There doesn't seem to be a gap between experienced and experiencer. It does feel like there is an experiencer however.

Aww...The "I" is only available to see if there is thinking involved. When just looking it is impossible to see an "I". Am I on to something?

Ty

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

As I sit here at work things seem to be happening at different distances. I can see movement throughout the halls at a distance. Theres a TV on in a patients room that seems to cover no distance. Hands are typing, eyes are blinking, uneasyness in the stomach thinking this ME is somebody. I would say that there is no centre to which life happens, because it is happening everywhere...

Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

There doesn't seem to be a gap between experienced and experiencer. It does feel like there is an experiencer however.

It's self-evident that there is awareness - here the English language doesn't help much because the word "awareness" implies a thing or object. Is easy to assume that the existence of awareness implies that experience has a subject. But it would seem on investigation that no sign of a subject can be found anywhere! So, is there any reason why experience has to have a subject?

The so-called gateless gate is a beginning, and the feeling of being a subject doesn't normally go away at this point. It doesn't matter what the feeling is if it's not believed.

Aww...The "I" is only available to see if there is thinking involved. When just looking it is impossible to see an "I". Am I on to something?

Yes, you're onto something. This leads into this nice obvious question: Direct experience and thought don't agree, so which is true?

I would say that there is no centre to which life happens, because it is happening everywhere...

Great!


Steve

[blackh]

Ty,

I know you're working hard on this. I just want to make sure I'm looking after you properly.

Remember the big question is, is there a self? This is obviously not an intellectual question. It's a question about perception and about truth. When you look, what kind of a world do you see? One with you in it, or one with things happening?


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

I am working hard even though so much is going on in life it seems I get side tract. I appreciate everything you're doing for me. You're last question is a perfect question for where I'm at. To be honest I would say 90% of the time it feels like there's a ME in the world.

That tells me I need to put more effort in and really look much harder.

Tx
Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

At this stage the question is - can you see/have you seen that there's no self there? Seeing it most of the time certainly can't be expected right now. But once you've seen it, it may be out of view sometimes, but you won't forget you've seen it. That seeing will set a process in motion that brings the whole thing down - but it's a slow process over years - maybe the rest of your life.

How much effort you should make is something that I can't really tell you - but you know. But I can say you'll see it when you're ready to and not before, so don't work too hard. Just stick with it and keep looking and asking what's really there.

I hope I'm being helpful!


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

You're being very helpful!!! After I text u last night I laid in bed and wondered if I was missing the obvious. I referred back to just moving my arm for example. It appears to move with some kind of effort, but there's an assumption that a ME is doing it. The same with thinking...thoughts can think all they want because that's what the mind does. There's always been an assumption that there is a ME doing this...compared to what? A no ME doing this...lol

So where I'm at is this familiar feeling that used to be assumed to be ME is no more than a familiar feeling. Today there were several times when the story in the mind can be very seductive, but that's okay because because the mind is very good at that.

Tx
Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

For the question of whether it's me doing it or not, while there is doubt just have to keep hammering away at different looking exercises. I've pasted a couple more below I dug up in case they're helpful, but just looking at real situations in daily life is also really good. Daily situations are perhaps better because that's cultivating a good habit.

Actually here's a good one that fits right in with that:

Go and make a cup of tea or coffee. As you do this notice whether a 'self' does it. Also notice if there are many or any moments in the whole procedure of going to the kettle, switching it on, getting the cup (etc) when 'you' control the process?

You can also ask yourself about whether you chose to do it.

Of course "me doing it" is the only theory we have ever been exposed to - but with looking, it's possible to see that the self theory doesn't add up. So you need to be able to entertain other possibilities. The trouble is, the real situation is somewhat resistant to a neat, tidy theory. That's why you have to be a scientist and look, look, look.

So where I'm at is this familiar feeling that used to be assumed to be ME is no more than a familiar feeling.

Yes - where is the evidence that it is anything other than a bodily sensation without any inherent meaning?

Today there were several times when the story in the mind can be very seductive, but that's okay because because the mind is very good at that.

Keep remembering this: The body in the kitchen making tea/coffee is real. The sounds are real, the small decisions are real, the actions are real, the sensation of the spoon in the hand is real, the warmth of the kettle is real, the bodily sensations that suggest "I am doing it" are real. But the story overlaid on top about what is happening is fiction.

How frustrated you are is fiction. How you feel about anything is fiction.

As you said, "Thoughts can think what they want." Exactly. If you're not required to believe them, then you're free to show them the appreciation they deserve for telling you so many useful things. You're trying to let go of psychological attachment to the small things, and just accept what's going on.

You're looking right at reality every moment. If you're looking at a tree, then that's the reality of looking at a tree. If attention is focused on thoughts, then that's the reality of attending to thoughts. If you are believing thoughts, then that's the reality of believing thoughts. Look at everything, accept everything, and let the whole thing come into focus.

There isn't something that has to be got out of the way, as such. The body/mind is in a state where something seems to be in the way of what you want to achieve. You can't change this fact because you don't exist. Accept it. The appearance you don't like IS the reality you are looking for.


Steve

---
Can you see a self making you leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up comes from? What makes the body get up, a you that commands the body?
It's always interesting to see the difference between thought content and what really happens.
“Can you see a self making the body leave the bed? ”
---
'On a count of 5, raise either your left or right arm, or not.' Dead simple.
---
Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?
---
Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does, focus on focussing, attention itself. Do you move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on breath, see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?
What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention?