Request to be guided

[tfarrah]

You asked a couple other questions;

Did "YOU" actually tell yourself to fully experience that or did a thought with that content come up?

A thought with that content came up. There is no "I" in charge of following your instructions or not.

Was there an expectation, that seeing through the illusion of self would eliminate unpleasant experiences once and for all?

I am not aware of such an expectation. But there definitely is an expectation that life will feel distinctly different than it did before. As I've mentioned, there are already differences: the sense of there being a doer has diminished, and it is easier to let emotions and unpleasant sensations simply arise and pass away without clinging. But those changes seem to be a deepening of an understanding that I'd already been developing for some time.

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

The arm slowly begins to lift. A deep breath. The hand slowly grasps the cup. Sipping happens. The arm places the cup back on the desk.

Thought: "What did I think I would lose?"

It was very touching to read your answer. <3


What do you think you will lose when letting go of the belief there is self, though you can't find it?


Warm regards - Ghata

[tfarrah]

What do you think you will lose when letting go of the belief there is self, though you can't find it?

There is the thought today that I might be done. Although you did say that I would know when I was done.

Yesterday evening, as I went to class after work, the thought arose, "OK, you can do this. You still have a sense that there is an 'I'. Ghata reminds me that this itself is just a belief, a thought, like any other. Just see that." After that, what I'd been calling "the sense of self" arose several times, and each time, I recognized it as a belief.

For the next several hours, even into my dreams, whenever a thought arose, whether it included an explicit 'I' or not, there was recognition that it was just thought. Whenever emotion arose in the body, there was recognition that it was just a physical reaction that would pass. At 4am I awoke from sleep and wondered, "Am I done?" A moment of fear arose, then a moment of sadness. Then, thoughts arose that I would feel foolish if I discovered later I wasn't actually through the gate. And another thought, that this state was fragile and if I wasn't vigilant, it would go away. I know that having passed through the gate is not a "state" but this is the thought that arose.

When I ask myself now, "What is 'I'?", the answer arises, "What I?"

When I ask myself, "Am I 100% sure there is no I?", the answer arises, "I don't know. It feels like too much work to think about."

Everything about life feels fairly normal. Some things feel different--the fear I usually feel upon waking is less than usual, and there seems to be an absence of drive--but life can feel different from day to day for various reasons, and I want to be done so badly that I could be imagining things. As a test, I went to Facebook. The first thing I saw was photos from my friends' camping trip. There was a lot of sympathetic joy, more than normal. Then I saw an article about 8 accomplished women from my graduate school program, and jealousy arose: "Why didn't they include me?"

Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

When I ask myself now, "What is 'I'?", the answer arises, "What I?"

It is really lovely to read your answer. :-)

When I ask myself, "Am I 100% sure there is no I?", the answer arises, "I don't know. It feels like too much work to think about."

Right :-)

No need to check again and again whether you are done. It unfolds best when you just go about your daily life. It doesn't neeed any attention right now.

Take care of the little things in life. Cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, running, ...
And sometimes just sit, relax the breath and let everything happen, that wants to happen.

Tell me later how your day was and how you feel.

I am looking forward to hearing about your day!


Much love - Ghata

[tfarrah]

So lovely to hear back from you right away!
I will tell you later how my day went.

Terry

[Ghata]

:-)

Much love - Ghata

[tfarrah]

How was my day and how do I feel?

Today felt totally normal, indistinguishable from how I felt before yesterday. What was happening last night and this morning? Was it a big fantasy of waking up?

More details:

After I wrote to you, I snuggled with Z for a while, then got dressed to go running with Z and S. At that point I became quite absorbed in talking to people and using my thinking mind, being lost in thought. I got dressed and while I was on the bus I talked with a friend.

Getting off the bus and walking to work, the thought arose, "I don't feel anything special. This feels totally normal. What should I do?" I tried noticing the life around me, the dogs' tails wagging and the leaves rustling in the breeze.

At the office, I became totally absorbed in work. Mid-day I took a walk to the lake and sat on a bench. Again, "I don't feel anything special." I tried noticing the life around me, the geese walking on the lawn, the surface of the lake. "How is this supposed to feel? What am I supposed to do?" It seemed my mind was easily lost in thought, as usual. The thought arose, "I don't like this; I'm going to try to make it different." I tried noticing I-thoughts and noticing that the "sense of self" was itself just a thought. That was really engaging to do last night, but today it just seemed like I was trying to regain something I'd lost. But what did I think I had gotten? I wrote this morning that I thought I was done and that I felt normal. So I guess what it seemed I'd lost was the idea that I was done. I tried asking myself again, What/where is the "I", and the answer, "What I?" again arose, but this time it seemed somehow flat or fake.

Back to my desk, again became absorbed in my work, lost in thought. After work, walking to the bus stop, I again remembered how purposeful I'd felt yesterday evening, and I tried noticing I-thoughts and noticing that the "sense of self" was itself just a thought. Did I believe in self this evening or not? I have no idea.

Rest of day went similarly. Just said good-night to a dinner guest. It's 10:45 p.m. here and I am really looking forward to going to bed.

Love,
Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry

Today felt totally normal, indistinguishable from how I felt before yesterday. ..
I don't feel anything special.

Good. It is normal that the elated feeling passed as all feelings do. Also thoughts will come and go and sometimes you will be absorbed in them and sometimes not

I tried noticing I-thoughts and noticing that the "sense of self" was itself just a thought

Please explore this SENSE of self more deeply. Not by noticing it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire…

Does the sense of self have a location? Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything? If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes? What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

Much love,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Ghata,

Does the sense of self have a location? Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Today was a very relaxed, easy going day for me, with beautiful spring weather. When I first read your questions, they seemed burdensome. But a little later I noticed a pleasant, full, pulsing sensation in my body, and the thought arose, "This is my sense of self. This is me!" The shape of it includes a trunk, head, and limbs with boundaries about 1" to 2" within the boundaries of the actual physical body. It is white and translucent, like a cloud.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything? If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

I don't know if it communicates anything, but as I kept noticing it, the thought arose, "this is so pleasant and such a relief [to not any longer be trying not to see self as not real]". I allowed the thought-sensation complex that I experience as self to be fully active and convincing, and it felt like a relief. I allowed myself to become fully absorbed in mental chatter as I spent hours working in the garden. The chatter was pretty boring ("I think I'll sweep this area. Oh, doesn't it look nice! I will enjoy this tidiness for weeks to come. It's so great that the others built these raised beds when I was out of town last weekend. I think we are getting along well.") but it felt like a relief to not be asking, "Is there any I to be found?" "At what point am I making a choice?" "Am I savoring this experience to the fullest", etc., -- to be trying to wake up. I know that "I" can't wake up but there has been a sense of effort ... and I know that effort is just an idea too ... but ... anyway ...

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes? What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

It seems to be made of sensation+thought. The image of it being white and translucent doesn't normally arise; it only arose when you asked me about its shape and size. The sensations in the chest, throat, and head seem to be more central to the sense of self than more peripheral sensations. When there is constriction in any of those areas, a belief arises that something is amiss. And, as I noticed some weeks ago, a momentary constriction in the throat combined with an I-thought seems to be at the very core of the sense of self.

At times during our dialog I've said things like, "No, there is not a sense that the voice in the head is me" and "There is no I to be found". But it seems that I can easily switch into a view where the sense of self is very strong and I feel like I'm talking to myself and doing things and creating things. It takes effort, or at least intention, to see all of this as simply thought+sensation. Without some kind of intention or effort or mindfulness, sense of self is present.

I feel weary of this inquiry, almost tearful. I'm not sure I really answered your questions. I described what self feels like to me.

Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

thank you for your description. Did you actually see the translucent white light? Or is it just a mental image. It sounds as if you have let yourself go off into dreaming.

It seems to be made of sensation+thought. The image of it being white and translucent doesn't normally arise; it only arose when you asked me about its shape and size. The sensations in the chest, throat, and head seem to be more central to the sense of self than more peripheral sensations. When there is constriction in any of those areas, a belief arises that something is amiss. And, as I noticed some weeks ago, a momentary constriction in the throat combined with an I-thought seems to be at the very core of the sense of self.

What tells you, that these sensations and thoughts are YOU?

Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

Did you actually see the translucent white light? Or is it just a mental image.

It was just a mental image. My sense of self does not include any actual sights. Just thought+sensation.

What tells you, that these sensations and thoughts are YOU?

I've been asking myself this all day. Also investigated during a 45 minute sitting meditation session. For contrast, I considered a collection of sensations and thoughts that I do NOT think of as me. Specifically I imagined that I were sitting with my feet in the ocean feeling the waves push and splash upon my legs while watching TV. The ocean, the sensations of being pushed and splashed, the voice on the TV are definitely NOT me. Then, I asked myself, why are these sensations in the body, the voice in the head, me? Why do I call them me? What tells me that they are me? On the face of it, it seems crazy to identify with the latter and not with the former. Yet I do.

I did not find an answer to your question in my direct experience.

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

Why do I call them me? What tells me that they are me? On the face of it, it seems crazy to identify with the latter and not with the former. Yet I do.

I did not find an answer to your question in my direct experience.

Does that mean there is nothing telling you that this is YOU?

Is it possible that the natural sense of being is labelled "me""?


Warm regards - Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

Does that mean there is nothing telling you that this is YOU?

Taking your question simply, literally, and at face value, the answer is no, there is nothing in my direct experience telling me that these thoughts and sensations comprise ME.

Is it possible that the natural sense of being is labelled "me""?

I would not know what you mean by "natural sense of being", except that I picked up an article from my partner's desk on Saturday that said there are 3 things we perceive: thoughts, input from the 5 sense doors, and a "sense of being or aliveness". When I read that, I was puzzled, because I wasn't aware of such a sense. I had bought the notion that thoughts+sensory input covered everything.

My answer is, yes, it's possible, but I don't know how to identify this sense of being. Also, thoughts seem to be involved in this "sense of self".

I watched the first video I found on the LU site last night, a 30 minute interview with someone named Hannah. She spoke about her experience as a guide, and talked about some of what has been happening here in our dialog -- clients describing their experience in a certain way, then the next day describing it in a completely different way. And something she called, "I got it, I lost it", or flip-flopping. I felt relieved and encouraged to hear this, because it helped me feel that I am not alone.

Love,
Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

yes, everybody is very different when it comes to seeing. :-)

Taking your question simply, literally, and at face value, the answer is no, there is nothing in my direct experience telling me that these thoughts and sensations comprise ME.

Clear answer!

I would not know what you mean by "natural sense of being", except that I picked up an article from my partner's desk on Saturday that said there are 3 things we perceive: thoughts, input from the 5 sense doors, and a "sense of being or aliveness". When I read that, I was puzzled, because I wasn't aware of such a sense. I had bought the notion that thoughts+sensory input covered everything.

Yes, there is a sense of being everybody has.

Look into it again, feel it again without adding mental images. Where does the label 'me' come from? Is it true that this sense is 'you' ?

Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Look into it again, feel it again without adding mental images. Where does the label 'me' come from? Is it true that this sense is 'you' ?

I looked again, feeling the sensations that I said comprised the sense of self. Looking for the label 'me', attention was drawn to the sensations in the throat and jaw. There is constant pulsing there, and tiny contractions near the back of the throat that seem associated with the sense of 'me'.

It could be my imagination, but it seems that when the back of the throat relaxes, the sense of 'me' diminishes or disappears.

Where does the label 'me' come from? I keep asking myself this. The label 'me' or 'I' seems to be subtly vocalized simultaneous to these contractions. I don't know how to answer the question, "where does the label come from?" from direct experience. What is meant by "where"? Do you mean, where in the body? The label is a thought.

Now I find my inquiry back in the place it was a couple weeks ago, when I felt drawn to examining these small contractions and the label 'me' or 'I' that co-arises with them. It seems that seeing this phenomena in detail could break the illusion that it is something more than it is, but you think it may be a detour. If so, I don't know how to proceed.

Would it be useful to spend time just feeling these sensations fully?

Is it true that this sense is 'you' ?

I don't know. I don't know how to find out.