The Gate

I will. What do you mean by 'positive?'

Great. So now that you have looked through the illusion of a separate self - how would you discribe what actually IS going on? How would you discribe your positive, real nature - in your own words?
Be as creative as you like, an have fun with this!

ok. What's really going on: a baby is born and one of the things it has is a brain. The brain is where all the sensory information comes in to be processed and the baby reacts with only a handful of drives as its motivation. Things that feel good map the programming to do it again or go get more of that, and things that feel bad are pushed away or screamed at or run from. The parents come into the picture as part of this baby's environment. Little by little this brain uses everything around it to write it's own software. It gets more and more complex and then language comes into the picture. The language is assimilated and the baby can start to label things. It kind of becomes a 'short hand' for what 'is.' It's a convenience. The baby learns 'me' and 'mine' as the parents are already doing it. The baby naturally has thoughts, but now these concepts of language are getting all twisted up in the thoughts and they happen so often, and everyone else seems to be doing it that the baby (now a child) naturally believes he's an individual. He sees his body do things and the brain does this little trick where a split second later it takes the credit for what would have naturally happened anyway. He sees it happen and assumes that's 'me.'

What's really happening is how it looks to 'me' (Calbert) when I watch my cat. My cat will just stop and scratch it's nose because all of the facts around it prompted my cat's paw to scratch it's nose. There's clearly no 'self' inside my cat 'deciding.' How could I possibly think this other animal (a human) would have things any other way? Everything we do is in some response to whatever is happening right now filtered through years and years and years of conditioning and learning. Billions of individual 'facts' or events have gone into 'programming' 'my' brain and my body is simply acting the way it's 'supposed' to given all the input. It cannot possibly go any other way than the one way that it went. The 'programming' can only output one possible response, and that's what my body does. "I" control nothing because "I" is just a concept. I can't decide, I am not special. I am what is. It's going to go how it went. Everything that happens around me and finally shows up on my doorstep for me to interact with can only go that way too. It's not predestined, because randomness exists (in a sense - maybe only in the sense that with so many factors involved - everything in existence - its ostensibly random, or preceivably random - things like the wind, etc.) So, my body still has to deal with unknown situations, but given those situations, "I" can only act one way.

So I was having a struggle understanding the whole "all connected" thing. I had read your last LU post and was thinking about how I was going to answer this question while I was in the drive-through line at McDonalds when it suddenly hit me: If I'm not a 'me' then I'm just an offshoot of life like a cog in a machine. But that also means that other people aren't a 'you,' they are also a cog. But I was still thinking "they are over there, and I am over here." I never made it to the point that if "I'm" not separate from "you" then we are both made up of whatever "this" is, and so is the air next to my body, and so is that tree, and so is that cloud, etc. So there is no separation because everything is a cog in the machine, nothing has it's own "me-ness." I'm still not 100% sure of that but is that the general idea?

If there is no me for anyone, there are a lot of bodies walking around with brains that have the thought that they are a separate 'me.' All the things they do I can see they have no other choice. All the silly backwards baseball caps and the pants halfway down their asses - they have no choice based on all that had come before. I have my own 'costume' but of course I judge mine to be acceptable. In reality, we are all just products of our environment. It makes no more sense to judge, it makes no more sense to have pride, it makes no more sense for a lot of things. I suppose what confused me is that I thought all my behaviors would change. But I guess I have all these habits that are not just going to simply go away. I imagine I may judge because somehow it may 'feel good' to judge, but maybe over time the wind will come out of that sail when I realize there's nothing to that. I don't know.

I will say in my 'normal' life I don't say to myself 'there is no me so...' blah blah blah. At work when someone attacks me, a shock goes through my body and I defend myself. I don't see how that will ever change, whether I know there is no me or not. Maybe I will look at a guy and say 'he had no choice but to say that' but I can easily get him to not say that by fighting back (and not making a 'choice' to fight back, but my body just doing it). So that's what I find so odd about this: yes, I see we are all characters but I still play along. So then I think "well there's still something I'm not seeing" thinking things should matter less now if I "really" saw it. At the same time, of course that's how I 'have to' feel, there is no other option. So weird...

Another thing that may have muted this for me is the 12 step program. I've already drastically changed. I already take things so easily, have a serene outlook, don't get flustered, am not 'chasing' anything (except what I thought was 'spirituality'), know I'm not in control, blame less and am more forgiving, have a much smaller ego, etc. I've changed so much from the guy I used to be. I wonder what I would have been like had I seen 'no-self' when I was still the old Calbert. Maybe that's where the shock would have been greater? I feel like the 12 step program 'knows' there is no me but just never says it - has us live like it's true anyway... Or maybe this is just a story? I have no clue anymore...

Thanks Dirk!

Calbert

If I'm not a 'me' then I'm not separate from anything. Its all one thing. Yes, I was waiting for things to 'change.' Of course nothing will change. I just know, that's all. And I can go about my daily business, or I can stop and ponder what this means. Right now I'm on a bench pondering, because that's where life took me. At some point I'll get up and pay my bills and clean the house. I'm not a 'me' and so what? It just is...

Hope everything is OK Dirk. Another caravan trip? No rush, just checking in. I reread this thread (well, the parts that I could palate lol). Interesting to see 'my' mind at work. Busy, busy, busy in these little self-centered circles. Like activity for activity's sake. I'm reading Jed McKenna. It's showing me all the assumptions I was operating under. That's all I have to report. No theories, no special experiences I'm clinging to. I'm just existing.

Take care,

Calbert

Hello Calbert,

Sorry for the prolonged absence. No travels here, but moving houses and renovating (and no internet connection during the process)...

ok. What's really going on: a baby is born and one of the things it has is a brain...

This seems to be a description of how the illusion of a separate self comes about - in biomedical and sociological terms. That's fine, albeit not what I meant by my question.

What do you mean by 'positive?'

By 'positive' (real nature) I mean THAT which IS / YOU really ARE - rather than all those things that you are NOT (= negative), such as a separate self, a person, a body with a brain and a mind, and so on...
Wanna have a go at that?

If I'm not a 'me' then I'm not separate from anything. Its all one thing. Yes, I was waiting for things to 'change.' Of course nothing will change. I just know, that's all. And I can go about my daily business, or I can stop and ponder what this means. Right now I'm on a bench pondering, because that's where life took me. At some point I'll get up and pay my bills and clean the house. I'm not a 'me' and so what? It just is...

YES!

Interesting to see 'my' mind at work. Busy, busy, busy in these little self-centered circles. Like activity for activity's sake. I'm reading Jed McKenna. It's showing me all the assumptions I was operating under. That's all I have to report. No theories, no special experiences I'm clinging to. I'm just existing.

Good.
:-)

Love

Dirk

By 'positive' (real nature) I mean THAT which IS / YOU really ARE - rather than all those things that you are NOT (= negative), such as a separate self, a person, a body with a brain and a mind, and so on...
Wanna have a go at that?

Hmmm... I guess I'd have to say that "I" am just part of this world. I'm like one of a million flowers or blades of grass. There is no unique individual 'inside' making me different or separate (oh that's negative again). Whatever sprouts a plant or pops open an acorn is what I am. I really have no other words to express it...

The thing I've noticed is that I'm even done looking at this. In a way that's very disappointing. It was all I did for months and months. Even the books I so enjoyed about 'being a better (more spiritual) person" ring hollow now. In a way I know that can't be right (I can still be a 'good' person) but at the same time I know "I" don't make decisions so there's no urge to 'change me' anymore. I'm in a weird place.

I've stopped meditating as well. It feels like I found what I was after. I don't necessarily feel 'good' though. At the same time, I'm not digging into 'no self.' It's almost like I'm ignoring it. I imagine it will sort it self out. It is what it is, right?

Thanks Dirk. Hope the move went well...

Calbert

Have you ever watched the movie "Memento?" I feel like that guy right now at the end of the movie...

Hello Calbert,

The thing I've noticed is that I'm even done looking at this. In a way that's very disappointing...

...I imagine it will sort it self out. It is what it is, right?

Right.
Yes, it is rather disappointing, in a way. It's a bit like studying your ass off for years, and then you finally get that First Class Honors Degree... and then... nothing!
But you should find that there will be moments of elation and certainly a lightness and freedom about all this!

It seems like there can be either focusing on appearances (experiences, perceptions, thoughts and stories, people, things, places, situations, etc.), which are ever-changing and inherently unstable, OR the focus can shift to (or dissolve into) the (back) ground of all these ephemeral phenomena - the presence-awareness / being / THIS - which is all-encompassing, whole, ever-present and unchanging, inherently stable, and, clearly here (and there), yet utterly ineffable...
Life seems to be an oscillating between these apparent poles. A Nisargadatta quote comes to mind: 'When I see am nothing, that is wisdon. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is movement between these two.'
There can be stories ABOUT all of this: How so much time seems to be spent in 'appearances' (and what that means and says about 'me'!), or even how amazing it is that pesence-awareness is recognized 'over here' (and what means and says about me!) LOL! All very amusing and profoundly irrelevant. But then... why not?

I have watched Memento, though I don't remember it all that well.

I am certainly satisfied with your answers and how our 'journey' here has unfolded.
I might have mentioned this before: We have a little 'ritual' here at LU, when what is being pointed to, has been seen. We go through a set of standard questions to resume and consolidate. At this stage, some other guides also will have a look at our communication. If there are no more questions, you will then be invited to join our (facebook) groups (there are a few different ones, each with different emphasis) - which is an excellent way to stay in touch with other people who have seen through the illusion of a separate self, look at persisting 'difficult issues', share insights, and so forth. I very much recommend to make use of this opportunity.

Wanna have go at these?

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you seeit now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?


Best Wishes,

Dirk

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is no "I." "I" am not a "me." There is no entity 'inside' deciding things. There wasn't ever.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion is that there is an entity "me" inside of me who has the ability to make decisions and 'run' my life. I think the illusion happens for the human creature because we have the capacity to think and we have a language that breaks things out to a subject and object. It seems to me feeling like a self slowly builds up when our parents interact with us. It's like this extra layer of thought comes into play so that we are no longer directly acting in our environment. Things seem to spin in thought about "I." It's like we live in this little buffer world and not real life. For me, it seemed very tied to being neurotic, worrying about so many "what ifs?"

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

When I first really saw it I got very excited. I tried to explain it to the first few people I saw. The more it sunk in it sort of flattened out. For a moment, it was an 'accomplishment.' Then it occured to me that if I'm not a 'me' then I didn't 'accomplish' anything - I couldn't even take credit. In that sense it was anticlimactic! For a few days I was a bit sad, or bored, or something. Then I simply realized that it is what it is and most everything I was thinking about was just a story with no real weight behind it. It's been a few weeks now, and to be honest, I don't often give it much more thought. It's just how it is.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I had been listening to the LU audio files obsessively, several times a day, every single day. I heard exactly what they were saying, but somehow I was convinced there was something between the words that I was missing. I kept thinking one day I was going to have a great epiphany and the whole world was going to look different and it would be this big moment. I decided that there must be some part of "me" that didn't want to let go of "me," so I started trying to think how I could 'trick' myself into letting go of me. So I was outside journaling and I wrote "ok, if there really is no me, then 'I' can never 'get' this. So what I need to do is take one step back and put the 'clues' in front of me so that I will come across them and 'see' this." As I started to write down how I was going to place these clues in my own path, it dawned on me that if there is no 'me' in control to do such a thing, then how could I even do that?? No matter how many steps 'ahead' of myself I thought about going, there would never be a 'me' in control to do that. All at once it hit me what was meant by 'no self.' There IS NO GUY in my head that can GET AHEAD of "me" and set something up to be seen! It was like I thought there was a 'me' and there was ALSO my body. The realization that all there is is my body interacting with the world, and no extra 'me,' happened right there.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

My decisions come from all of my past experiences going all the way back to my childhood. There's no "me" inside selecting blue or red. With all of the 'programming' in my head, a color choice is going to be made. A split second later thoughts come in and say "well I prefer blue" but that takes place after my body (for lack of a better word) has already selected. I am a creature that moves and does and then rationalizes. The thinking part comes second. What makes things happen is life happening. Whatever pops open the acorn. That's it. There's nothing I'm responsible for; this world 'programmed' me and I react based on that programming. Example from experience? Every "decision" I've ever "made." They all just happened.

6) Anything to add?

At the end of Memento, (spoiler alert! skip this paragraph if you are going to watch the movie) the guy who couldn't remember anything starts his journey all over again, because he needed something to chase. I feel like I've enjoyed this 'chase' so much that I want to do it again. It now feels like I know all I'll ever need to know about life. Being 'done' feels weird.

Thank you for your patience. Like everyone seems to say: it was right there in front of me and I just chose to not see it.

BTW, I turned a friend onto this site and there is real joy in seeing her 'get it.' Very cool!

Calbert

Hello again Calbert,

Thank you for answering these so promptly. Good stuff!

There are a couple of (related) points I would like you to briefly clarify, though:

It was like I thought there was a 'me' and there was ALSO my body. The realization that all there is is my body interacting with the world, and no extra 'me,' happened right there.

In direct experience: is there even a body - interacting with a world? Or are there only perceptions and sensations - and thoughts about 'body' (be it 'mine' or 'other'), 'world' and 'interacting'?

A split second later thoughts come in and say "well I prefer blue" but that takes place after my body (for lack of a better word) has already selected. I am a creature that moves and does and then rationalizes.

Who or what selects? Are you a creature? Do you ever really move, do or rationalize?

Looking forward to your comments

Dirk

Will get back to you on these. I have answers but I am pondering the implications of what this all means... probably better to answer after thinking a bit...

Hello Calbert,

Do take your time, if you may, but I would advise against over-thinking or getting into 'meaning' (which is just another concept).
Just like with the 'separate self' - this is really just a matter of looking!

It is not uncommon to see through the false self, but somehow continue believing in the objective existence of a body with a brain and a mind - and subtly identifying as that. On investigation it should become clear though, that these, too, are just learned ideas and concepts.
Bio-medical, physical and other so-called scientific models and explications are just that - models. These can be employed where and when useful, but must not be mistaken to be 'reality'.
Just have a look and see if they stand up to direct investigation!

Love,
D.

It is not uncommon to see through the false self, but somehow continue believing in the objective existence of a body with a brain and a mind - and subtly identifying as that.

Yeah, I think I'm in this space. I've gone back to the Greg Goode book. I will not over-think it, I will just do some looking today...

I look at my cat and I see a body with no 'self' inside. By analogy, I see myself as a body with no self inside.

I am intrigued and aghast at the implications. Having seen there is no me, I am very open minded to see this as well...

Thanks Dirk.... will try to post tonight after looking...

Calbert

Sorry it's taken a few days.

So, I've been poking around some Rupert Spira stuff. It's funny how when I was 'searching' some things resonated (whether or not I truly grasped them is another story) and some things didn't 'do much' for me. I never really 'got' Rupert Spira.

This second time around I am following him perfectly. Knowing I'm not a 'me' the consciousness stuff now seems to make sense. It all sounded so fluffy and made-up the first time. Now I know what he means when he's saying that consciousness is aware of consciousness. That objects, including the body, can only arise in consciousness. How we share one consciousness because by its nature it's indivisible, and how what we see as reality with other people is where that consciousness overlaps, and that the thoughts and feelings in our head is where it's not overlapping.

Greg Goode talks about how could this big vast space exist inside and be contained by the skull bones? That in experience we can feel no boundary.

So, yeah, I think I'm there. I will meditate on this later and see what comes up...

Thanks,

Calbert

Great. Keep me posted!