I'm ready to investigate

[Antony]

Perhaps this explains it as i still feel like i don't really get this. Like it's not absolutely clear somehow. So much doubt.

[Damon Kamda]

Perhaps this explains it as i still feel like i don't really get this. Like it's not absolutely clear somehow. So much doubt.

Perhaps it's a good idea if you continue your conversation with Vince. He's not online right now though.

Is that ok with you?

[Antony]

Yeah, that sounds like a good idea.
Thanks Nomad

[Damon Kamda]

It's a pleasure.

Good luck!

[vinceschubert]

Gidday Antlony, you said

Are you not the awareness that sees all these concepts passing through

This is a trap. You are trapped in another concept when you start talking about awareness like this.
Is there experiencing that you label awareness? i think not. (you don't talk about it in a way that suggests it)
So you are building a story - warning! warning!
EVERYTHING OUTSIDE YOUR DIRECT EXPERIENCING NOW IS A STORY!!!
Stories do have a place and are necessary for interacting with the 'world' but we don't need to identify with them.
Do this exercise; spend a couple of hours doing 'normal' things but constantly ask yourself what is actual and what is story. Example. i see table (actual) table needs cleaning (story) table has mess on it (actual + story - mess has value judgement built in) table has chaotic arrangement of item (actual) etc.

going to golf now - back in about 3-4 hours

[Antony]

Hi Vince,

I am definitely feeling trapped in everything actually. This fear of death has really gripped me. I feel really protective of what has transpired. There most definitely is a sense of me here all the time. Yes i see the sense is a thought but this only occurs to me as another thought. It is not self evident. Last night it all became clear for an instant and i felt very close to seeing directly, but then fear came up and the 'me' thought reasserted itself. Furthermore, there is no understanding of what took place a few days ago with you. I can't see the difference before and after. Something's shifted but i have no idea what. There's no seeing of what is different in my experience. I am using my mind to understand something that i don't really see so i am just building more and more concepts to tell 'me' what is going on. At the root of it, 'me' still here and i must say, not completely seen through. There's a lot of fear about seeing this.

You're exercise is simple and hasn't seemed to highlight anything that wasn't already happening. i.e. i am aware of projected thought on top of what is already seen. Using the word 'seen' is very revealing as this is still the case of the experience of seer and seen. I'm still looking out of these eyes. I feel close to seeing through this. Like i mentioned in the experience of last night but pulled back by fear at the last minute.

Thanks Vince,

Antony

[vinceschubert]

but then fear came up... There's a lot of fear about seeing this.... but pulled back by fear at the last minute.

Antony, fear features a lot in this post. Fear is your friend. It is trying to protect you. In this case it is not fear of a real danger. There are no snakes.
It is trying to protect you from something Imagined. Something that might happen. Something that might happen if you see clearly ? Is that it ?
What are the possible consequences if total dis-identification with the story occurs ?
Are you going to become an unmotivated zombie - or something ?
What ?

[Antony]

It is trying to protect you from something Imagined. Something that might happen. Something that might happen if you see clearly ? Is that it ?

That's exactly it. I'm so terrified of seeing what it is. It's playing out in so many areas of my life and has done all my life. Perhaps i can go into some detail as to what are the apparent triggers?

What are the possible consequences if total dis-identification with the story occurs ?

I'm not ultimately sure what will happen if this is seen through. I'm still protecting 'my' state of peace and stillness and i don't want anyone i perceive as a threat to it in my life at all. I'm worried that i won't be in control. I still feel in control.

[vinceschubert]

i promise you that what we are doing is definitely a threat. WATCH OUT !

I'm worried that i won't be in control. I still feel in control.

Hah, good one. Seeing clearly shows that you are NOT in control. To NOT see it allows you to continue believing the myth.
Here, watch this and you will see towards the end where science proves that any decision that you think you have made was indeed made by the brain some 6seconds before it became consciously known.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E
YOU clearly do NOT have control !

[Antony]

Hi Vince,

I've got some things to do now. I'll watch the video later today and get back to you in your morning.

Thanks,

Antony

[vinceschubert]

Goodnight Antony.
Welcome your fear.

[Antony]

Hi Vince,

I watched the video. Was really cool. Interesting to see science demonstrate that the sense of control is bogus. That the thought of self arises after making a decision or action is made. I understand that. Now to discover this as direct experience.

[vinceschubert]

Antony, What was a trigger point for me, may also be for you. Let's do it.
TRUST ! Does trust come from experience ? Can trust be exercised without a belief that everything will be OK ?
Get this ! YOUR THOUGHT CANNOT BE TRUSTED ! (old Lakota indian saying) It is like asking the car salesman if the car is a good one. Thoughts have a vested interest in keeping you in familiar territory.
The NATURAL state. The state that we settle into when interference is removed is one of Peace, Openness, Wonder, and a Knowing that whatever occurs Life-ing is Good.
The Universe is Mother and you are baby. Everything wants only Good for you. Even the dysfunctional story that evolved around you want the best for you. It just fucked up because it was based on a Lie.
You can also ask yourself; "Now that i know that control was a myth, now that i know that any sense of control was illusion, now that i know that i didn't really have control, if i stop the pretence and remove all of the effort and emotion and the whole control story, if all of that goes, What is Left ?

[Antony]

Does trust come from experience ? Can trust be exercised without a belief that everything will be OK ?

I guess trust ultimately has to be exercised without the belief that everything will be ok. There's no way of knowing what will happen so i can stop kidding myself that i do know.
Irrespective of recognising this fact there's still a sense that i can still protect myself from...... a thought. Shit! Never saw it like that before. That's all it is. I'm protecting myself from a thought.
Hmm... Understanding of this is great but it doesn't change how i feel. That's it. I can't change how i feel. I'm already feeling it.
So the next question is why am i feeling so resistant to the feelings that are there as bodily sensation? It's this resistance that i'd say is the struggle and suffering.

[Antony]

If i stop the pretence and remove all of the effort and emotion and the whole control story, if all of that goes, What is Left ?

Nothing is left. Just experiencing whatever is there in the moment.