The Gate

Thanks Tao.

I will get back tomorrow. Little busy today. However your questions are very interesting and I would work on them.

Jiten

OK great

Hi Tao,

Have you ever made a decision, let alone a wrong one?

looks like no. There are many many instances/observations where decision has not been made by me.

But it seems when there is a desire/emotion associated with thought about a decision/act, then its is concluded implicitly as if I wanted this and I made this decision. Same is for resistance based avoidance of something.

Continue with the exercises and tell me if:

You are the chooser of ANY body movement
You are the chooser of ANY thought,
You could have acted different in ANY past scenario.

Very clear about I am not chooser of ANY thought.

About Body movement-----------many many infact almost all movements are not choosen or decided by me except when a experiment is being done where thoughts and body movements are matched....and concluded see I can choose body movement.

You could have acted different in ANY past scenario.

I think I will have to work more on this. not able to find any headway to investigate this. in Direct experience there is no past....so I will have to apply extrapolation of current experience to imaginary past (even if it was?) can you please give some direction?

Is there resistance to a state, or is 'resistance' the state itself (a label for the state)
In other words, is there anything actually resisting the state, or is the state an appearance of resistance?

resistance is concluded as a response of "me" because of certain preference or aversion....
or rather
it is felt that resistance is built because of certain specific preference or aversion for a particular situation. This preference or aversion is indirectly concluded as of "me"..... and reaction in body like heavy or shallow breathing with tightening of chest and all...further re-inforce this.

don't have an answer for this as of now. But I get identified with resistance at that time. Its me who is resisting which wants to be free

So can you find that which becomes identified? Or is it only ever a thought that says there is something being consumed by thought?

Will check and get back..

When you say that resistance is a state, does it mean it is not a response of some urge to prefer or avoid something.......desire and fear...

So did you find the driving force or 'decider'? Is there one?

No but preference and avoidance is felt strongly....and it seems that they only cause specific choosing.

The Santa analogy:
"
'seeing through' Santa, i.e. knowing for sure that there is no Santa, doesn't mean that little kids then spend the rest of their lives constantly thinking, 'there's no Santa'! Nor does it mean that Santa isn't apparently spotted in shopping malls in December. It's just that the story has been seen through. The direct knowing of no-self may be recollected at any time, but states still continue to come and go - pleasant, unpleasant, 'positive', 'negative'."

That said, is anything actually suffering these states?

Again...not clear answer yet...

But preference/avoidance leading to resistance and conflict is what is felt as "me"...in conflict/resistance, it feels I want this but what is happening is something else....and resistance gets built, and is experienced in body specially in chest and above (including head)...

Can anything come to any harm?
If so what is it that can come to any harm?

will get back on this.

Thanks
Jitendra

Hi jiten

Have you ever made a decision, let alone a wrong one?

looks like no. There are many many instances/observations where decision has not been made by me.

But it seems when there is a desire/emotion associated with thought about a decision/act, then its is concluded implicitly as if I wanted this and I made this decision. Same is for resistance based avoidance of something.

Very clear about I am not chooser of ANY thought.

About Body movement-----------many many infact almost all movements are not choosen or decided by me except when a experiment is being done where thoughts and body movements are matched....and concluded see I can choose body movement.

So you are not the chooser of ANY thought, but when thought says lift right arm, and right arm lifts, that means you chose it to happen? Did you choose the original thought?

Where did the idea / impulse to lift the arm come from?

If I ask you to lift your right arm, and you do it, does that means you chose it?

If I tell you not to think of a pink elephant, can you choose not to think of a pink elephant?

You could have acted different in ANY past scenario.

I think I will have to work more on this. not able to find any headway to investigate this. in Direct experience there is no past....so I will have to apply extrapolation of current experience to imaginary past (even if it was?) can you please give some direction?

Yes good, so there is not a past, so when thought says I done something wrong, it's not actually true is it? It's just an idea, arising now.

Is there resistance to a state, or is 'resistance' the state itself (a label for the state)
In other words, is there anything actually resisting the state, or is the state an appearance of resistance?

resistance is concluded as a response of "me" because of certain preference or aversion....
or rather
it is felt that resistance is built because of certain specific preference or aversion for a particular situation. This preference or aversion is indirectly concluded as of "me"..... and reaction in body like heavy or shallow breathing with tightening of chest and all...further re-inforce this.

So the 'me' is simply a thought conclusion? An unfounded assumption?

What exactly is the 'me'?
The resistance itself?
The sensations?
The thoughts?
Something else?
Can you pin the 'one that resists' down?

can you find that which becomes identified? Or is it only ever a thought that says there is something being consumed by thought?

Will check and get back..

Important point this. Where is the 'me' that gets lost in thought?

But preference/avoidance leading to resistance and conflict is what is felt as "me"...in conflict/resistance, it feels I want this but what is happening is something else....and resistance gets built, and is experienced in body specially in chest and above (including head)...

So is it the the actual sensations that make up the 'me'?
What happens when those specific sensations are not felt? Does the 'me' dissappear ?

Tao

Hi Tao,

I will get back with answers tomorrow.

but in general, preference in any given situation is where i am hung-up. Preference seems to be mine, of "me".

for example currently i am feeling a bit exhausted and don't want to reply in detail. so it is very strongly felt that i have chosen this short reply instead of long one.

Thanks
Jitendra

Hi Tao,

I am facing some resistance in replying to your messages...I am noticing it from 2-3 days so mentioning it. the cause of resistance seems to be that I might fail/cheat again in exercise. Whenever I am not able to spend time during the day in doing the exercises you give, I feel this fear, something like I am cheating in exercises.....Just thought of mentioning it.

So you are not the chooser of ANY thought, but when thought says lift right arm, and right arm lifts, that means you chose it to happen? Did you choose the original thought?

No, I did not choose the original thought....I have NEVER chosen any thought it seems. Even when I am focusing on a particular problem or area, thoughts occurring might be related or directed towards the issue but not choosen. They appear.

Where did the idea / impulse to lift the arm come from?

It just appeared.

If I ask you to lift your right arm, and you do it, does that means you chose it?

No. the trigger is your instruction.

but could I choose not to do it?..sometime it seems that response is immediate without thoughts but based on preferences...

If I tell you not to think of a pink elephant, can you choose not to think of a pink elephant?

No. Its Automatic response of thinking pink elephant.

Yes good, so there is not a past, so when thought says I done something wrong, it's not actually true is it? It's just an idea, arising now.

There is still resistance for this. Yes, its true that its a thought arising now. but when "believed" to have done something wrong (for example a particular work/assignment not completed) and expecting a retaliation, then can't just see it as thought appearing now which is not true and there is no past.

So the 'me' is simply a thought conclusion? An unfounded assumption?

What exactly is the 'me'?
The resistance itself?
The sensations?
The thoughts?
Something else?
Can you pin the 'one that resists' down?

"me" is not just a thought conclusion. it is probably a bundle of thoughts and emotions.

me is the automatic response of a preference or resistance to a given situation. for example if I get a last minute big work in office and then there is a intense reaction of agitation, anxiety and resistance with lots of argument/counter arguments going on in mind...that time this feels like I have this response and I don't like it and I am angry...'me' is felt strongly.

Can you pin the 'one that resists' down?

No :-(. I cant pin it down, but as long as there is resistance....looping thoughts and emotions in chest is felt or concluded as 'me'.

Important point this. Where is the 'me' that gets lost in thought?

will monitor this again today and reply.

But preference/avoidance leading to resistance and conflict is what is felt as "me"...in conflict/resistance, it feels I want this but what is happening is something else....and resistance gets built, and is experienced in body specially in chest and above (including head)...

So is it the actual sensations that make up the 'me'?

me is always felt that to as conclusion, but not seen/found.

What happens when those specific sensations are not felt? Does the 'me' disappear ?

Ha. Ha... it is assumed to be there without experience or feeling associated with it. and it is felt strongly when there is resistance.

Thanks
Jiten

Hi jiten

No, I did not choose the original thought....I have NEVER chosen any thought it seems. Even when I am focusing on a particular problem or area, thoughts occurring might be related or directed towards the issue but not choosen. They appear.

Where did the idea / impulse to lift the arm come from?
It just appeared.

]If I ask you to lift your right arm, and you do it, does that means you chose it?

No. the trigger is your instruction.

but could I choose not to do it?..sometime it seems that response is immediate without thoughts but based on preferences...

What would be choosing NOT to do it?
Another spontaneous thought/impulse?
Are those thoughts/impulses 'yours', or do they just appear?

So the 'me' is simply a thought conclusion? An unfounded assumption?

What exactly is the 'me'?
"me" is not just a thought conclusion. it is probably a bundle of thoughts and emotions.

me is the automatic response of a preference or resistance to a given situation. for example if I get a last minute big work in office and then there is a intense reaction of agitation, anxiety and resistance with lots of argument/counter arguments going on in mind...that time this feels like I have this response and I don't like it and I am angry...'me' is felt strongly.

'Probably' is a word used when referring to thought stories, not DE.
What is the 'me' in DE?

So there is agitation/anxiety
We'll label these as sensations

And there are conflicting arguments
We'll label these as thoughts.

If you are specific thoughts, then awareness would disappear when those thoughts subside
If you are specific sensations, then awareness would disappear when those sensations pass.
Are you thoughts or sensations
Or are you simply aware of all arising thoughts/sensations?

No :-(. I cant pin it down, but as long as there is resistance....looping thoughts and emotions in chest is felt or concluded as 'me'.

If you can't pin the 'me' down, then it must be an unfounded, unsupported conclusion. Can u find any real evidence for the 'me' other than a thought conclusion?

Important point this. Where is the 'me' that gets lost in thought?

What happens when those specific sensations are not felt? Does the 'me' disappear ?

Ha. Ha... it is assumed to be there without experience or feeling associated with it. and it is felt strongly when there is resistance.

So look carefully at that assumption,
Is it anything more than a thought?
Are you that thought?

Tao

Hi Tao,

What would be choosing NOT to do it?Another spontaneous thought/impulse?

yes..mostly another impulse. Certainly i am not choosing the response.

Are those thoughts/impulses 'yours', or do they just appear?

they are not mine..they just appear.

'Probably' is a word used when referring to thought stories, not DE.
What is the 'me' in DE?

there is no me in DE apart from thoughts and sensations.

This is clear is normal situations. but when there is resistance, it is not seen. but i will practice and report back.

So there is agitation/anxiety,We'll label these as sensations
And there are conflicting arguments,We'll label these as thoughts.

If you are specific thoughts, then awareness would disappear when those thoughts subside
If you are specific sensations, then awareness would disappear when those sensations pass.

Are you thoughts or sensations
Or are you simply aware of all arising thoughts/sensations?

I am aware of all arising thoughts and sensations...

If you are specific thoughts, then awareness would disappear when those thoughts subside
If you are specific sensations, then awareness would disappear when those sensations pass.

so what is implied here is because awareness does not disappear i must be awareness...

since awareness is constant, i must be it...
"me" appears and disappears but awareness is constant (but only in waking state for me).....

since awareness is there all the time i must be it....instead of thoughts and sensations which appear and disappear..

makes sense....

If you can't pin the 'me' down, then it must be an unfounded, unsupported conclusion. Can u find any real evidence for the 'me' other than a thought conclusion.

No i can't pin 'me' down...other than thoughts saying so...

So look carefully at that assumption,
Is it anything more than a thought?

will check again...i intent to check it when it is felt more strongly.

Are you that thought?

I cant be thought. it appears and disappears.

Thanks Tao...this is helping a lot.

Jiten.

Hi Tao,

I had a triggered day today.

I could notice reactive feelings and sensations without identifying with them as mine. It was not a investigation in proper meditative state of D.E so don't have aha moment. but not getting identified itself was a big change.

just thought of sharing.

Thanks
Jiten

Hi Jiten

so what is implied here is because awareness does not disappear i must be awareness...

since awareness is constant, i must be it...
"me" appears and disappears but awareness is constant (but only in waking state for me).....

Exactly. Though be vigilant that 'I am awareness' doesn't become a belief. If it seems as if 'I am awareness observing experience', then there is still lingering duality.

Here is an exercise for this:
Look at an object in the room.
Where does the object end, and the knowing of it begin?
Is the object and the knowing of it separate? Or is that just an appearance?

Let's also look at the so called waking state.
Does awareness ever sleep, or disappear?
Do you ever sleep? Or is that just an idea, that you know of right now?
Have you ever experienced the disappearing of awareness?

No i can't pin 'me' down...other than thoughts saying so...

I cant be thought. it appears and disappears.

Good, so anything that disappears cannot be 'me',
Because awareness remains

I had a triggered day today.

I could notice reactive feelings and sensations without identifying with them as mine. It was not a investigation in proper meditative state of D.E so don't have aha moment. but not getting identified itself was a big change

Great.
Keep looking into this.
Are any feelings or sensations actually 'yours'?

Glad this dialogue is helping :)

Tao

Hi Tao,

I need more time to work on these two questions... they are very unique and not easy. i dont have answers currently but many questions about questions.

Where does the object end, and the knowing of it begin?
Is the object and the knowing of it separate? Or is that just an appearance?

if object and knowing are same and is just an appearance, then we are implying there is no object as a objective reality. if we say that object and its knowing are just appearance, then it should also disappear even while attention/look is given to them....like thoughts come and go on there own...just pope up and disappear...it is not so with a car.

Does awareness ever sleep, or disappear?
Do you ever sleep? Or is that just an idea, that you know of right now?
Have you ever experienced the disappearing of awareness?

either of the two should be true..everyday when i sleep and then wake-up and watch shows 8 hours passed

1) 8 hours have not passed....its a lie...

or

2) 8 hours passed...but i as awareness was not aware.

i have never experienced the disappearing of awareness...but i have probably experienced coming of awareness(contradicting my statement...even to see coming of awareness..awareness is needed)

Thanks
Jiten

Hi Tao,

Look at an object in the room.
Where does the object end, and the knowing of it begin?
Is the object and the knowing of it separate? Or is that just an appearance?

Where does the object end, and the knowing of it begin?

when I put the question where does the object end, focus goes to the boundary of the object. when I ask "where does the knowing of it begins?...then awareness becomes unfocused......and object seems to be an appearance in the awareness....

Is the object and the knowing of it separate?

unless thoughts comes or awareness gets focused on, object does not appear to be separate....

Or is that just an appearance?

object seems to be just appearance or rather part of the seeing.......not sure if it can be called appearance because it does not disappear.

Does awareness ever sleep, or disappear?

No....because its disappearance is not known/remembered/no memory of it. if awareness disappears what will know it?

Do you ever sleep?Or is that just an idea, that you know of right now?

I "believe" I sleep daily..sometime dreams are remembered...body and attention feel tired at end of the day before sleep and in the morning I wake-up feeling restful and refresh.

but all above is idea I am having right now. but that does not mean I did not sleep? (again idea now). does it?(again idea now).........in D.E of this moment(idea) there is no experience of sleep.

but mind is strongly opposing to this discussion..........

D.E in this moment what is the importance of this? what is not being experienced now has never happened .......... this is what the discussion is being driven at...there is a strong resistance to this....just because something is not being experienced now but is appearing as a thought of "it happened in past".......what should be accepted/believed and what is true?

what is true ............ thought is saying it happened in past...it is not happening now

accepted/believed...........thought is true which is saying " it happened in the past" along with images.

Have you ever experienced the disappearing of awareness?

No..

Thanks
Jiten

so real question is what is the importance of D.E...whatever is not happening in direct experience but is remembered...rather appears as thought/images which speak about past now.....

why does it get believed in?

Hi jiten,

unless thoughts comes or awareness gets focused on, object does not appear to be separate..

Is the object ever separate from awareness? Does thought create real separation?

object seems to be just appearance or rather part of the seeing.......not sure if it can be called appearance because it does not disappear.

What doesn't disappear? The object?
Look at the object, close your eyes.
Where is the object with your eyes closed?
Is it anything more than a thought story?

Does awareness ever sleep, or disappear?

No....because its disappearance is not known/remembered/no memory of it. if awareness disappears what will know it?

Good.
So is awareness ever 'off'?
Or is it always 'on'?

Do you ever sleep?Or is that just an idea, that you know of right now?

I "believe" I sleep daily..sometime dreams are remembered...body and attention feel tired at end of the day before sleep and in the morning I wake-up feeling restful and refresh.

but all above is idea I am having right now. but that does not mean I did not sleep? (again idea now). does it?(again idea now).........in D.E of this moment(idea) there is no experience of sleep.

Exactly, this is what I'm getting at. Can 'sleep' be anything more than a thought story?
Can you find the experience of sleep?
Or just a thought about sleep?
And a thought about 'dreams'?

but that does not mean I did not sleep? (

Is there even an 'I' that does or doesn't sleep?

You said awareness can't sleep. Of course it can't, it is awareness, 'awakeness'.
Can you find anything other than this awakeness, here and now?

mind is strongly opposing to this discussion..........

D.E in this moment what is the importance of this? what is not being experienced now has never happened .......... this is what the discussion is being driven at...there is a strong resistance to this....just because something is not being experienced now but is appearing as a thought of "it happened in past".......what should be accepted/believed and what is true?

'Mind' will appear to be in resistance, because all of its beliefs are on the line.
Thoughts see things from the point of view of a timeline. So ideas like 'past', 'happened', 'true and false' spring up.

Thoughts create a duel appearance, where things can be opposite to each other, black & white, on and off, true and false, known and unknown, aware and unaware and so on.

But despite what appears to be, there is only THIS.
Is there an opposite to THIS?
Or can you only ever find THIS?

what is true ............ thought is saying it happened in past...it is not happening now

accepted/believed...........thought is true which is saying " it happened in the past" along with images.

Is 'past' anything more than an idea appearing now?
Is there anything that is not happening now?
You could say that Woodstock is not happening now
But that is a thought happening now.

so real question is what is the importance of D.E...whatever is not happening in direct experience but is remembered...rather appears as thought/images which speak about past now.....

why does it get believed in?

Does it get believed in?
What believes it?
Isn't it just more thoughts saying other thoughts are true?

Is there such a thing as importance?
Or is importance just another idea?

Tao