The Gate

I'll do the exercise and report back. Thanks a lot for being so patient with me.

Great, thanks.

We already looked at thoughts to some extent. We saw thoughts arise automatically on their own – depending on various “external” and “internal” conditions. So what makes thoughts “your thoughts”? What is claiming them? What owns them? What makes conditioning “your conditioning”? What makes perception “your perception”, etc…

Negative thoughts make me feel sad and disappointed. As I feel sad when perceiving something negatively, I think its my perception. I get a slight headache on perceiving that someone has perceived me negatively.
The sad feelings I get from negative thoughts make me feel the thoughts are mine, and real.

I'll write more after finishing that experiment.

I did this exercise of labeling experiences in terms of verb. It felt unnatural, many times I forgot to do that throughout the day, but again got back to doing it, as I remembered that that had to be done. The act of labelling in terms of verbs didn't feel natural.

Also, I realize that most of the time, it isn't the experience that hurts, it's the thought (which comes split second after the experience, again and then again, and also later on after hours, days, months, or even years) that hurts.

I realize that even 'I' is a thought. My conditioning is a thought. In short, everything I experience is a thought. And I feel quite light realizing this. I don't know how long this is going to last, but I feel quite light.
Still, this sense of being a separate individual hasn't gone. I do take myself as a separate person while talking to people, while riding my bike etc. I still do feel many emotions as my own.

Hi Sparsh,

Talking without personal pronouns may indeed sound strange to most people and to be fair it is not necessary. It was only an exercise, an experiment to see that pronouns are not needed. They are just a language tool.

Also, I realize that most of the time, it isn't the experience that hurts, it's the thought (which comes split second after the experience, again and then again, and also later on after hours, days, months, or even years) that hurts.

Great insight.

I realize that even 'I' is a thought. My conditioning is a thought. In short, everything I experience is a thought. And I feel quite light realizing this. I don't know how long this is going to last, but I feel quite light.

Wonderful. There is a nice video from one of the members of our community that might be useful about direct experience and thoughts. I recommend you look at it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB2Itt5KQU8

Still, this sense of being a separate individual hasn't gone.

Is there an expectation that this sense of being a separate individual shouldn’t be? What is that sense? Is that what you are? What else “should” be different than what already is?

I do take myself as a separate person while talking to people, while riding my bike etc. I still do feel many emotions as my own.

So again, what is it that assumes ownership? Sensations come and go, thoughts come and go, identities come and go, feelings come and go, emotions come and go … Are you that coming and going or are you that which doesn’t change? What is it? Where is it?

Kind regards
Milan

I'll reply soon. Please bear with me.

Is there an expectation that this sense of being a separate individual shouldn’t be? What is that sense? Is that what you are? What else “should” be different than what already is?

Yes, there's an expectation. It's the sense that I shouldn't take things personally, I shouldn't be hurt, I shouldn't feel bad etc. I realize that these expectations too are thoughts. Still, I do get hurt. Even the expectation that I shouldn't be hurt is a thought. I'm kind of lost.

So again, what is it that assumes ownership? Sensations come and go, thoughts come and go, identities come and go, feelings come and go, emotions come and go … Are you that coming and going or are you that which doesn’t change? What is it? Where is it?

It's the sense of 'me' that assumes ownership. Everything changes. Nothing is permanent. I realize that I am a thought too. Still, I view myself as a separate entity.
I know this expectation too is a thought. Still, there's this feeling. Again, I'm lost.

Hi Sparsh,

Yes, there's an expectation. It's the sense that I shouldn't take things personally, I shouldn't be hurt, I shouldn't feel bad etc. I realize that these expectations too are thoughts. Still, I do get hurt. Even the expectation that I shouldn't be hurt is a thought. I'm kind of lost.

Yes, “should thoughts” are a great recipe for suffering. In reality life happens regardless of what we think and believe. Seeing through the imaginary “I” does not change that. Life still happens. The habit of thinking “this shouldn’t be so and so” is simply result of conditioning. As you begin to realize that thoughts are just spontaneous arising that has nothing to do with you, you gradually begin to see that these thoughts are empty and have nothing to do with reality. So there is no need to listen to them and believe them hence you can relax and enjoy what is.
The same goes for thought “I’m kind of lost”.

It's the sense of 'me' that assumes ownership. Everything changes. Nothing is permanent. I realize that I am a thought too. Still, I view myself as a separate entity.

In direct experience, what is sense? Look at many various forms of sense, for example: “sense of this is good”, “sense of this is bad”, “sense of this is me”, “sense of this is what I am”, “sense of that’s rubbish”, “sense of that’s not me”, etc… What is the difference between them?

What is the difference between a thought “this is me” and feeling “this is me” and sense “this is me”?
Are you really that sense of ‘me’?

In the flow of experiencing what is that "separate entity"?

I know this expectation too is a thought. Still, there's this feeling. Again, I'm lost.

So again, is there an expectation that “this feeling” shouldn’t be anymore?

Again, straight from direct experience, can you let me have your response to the following statement:

'I' is just a thought..so it can't be a thinker, doer, witness or anything at all?

Just looking from a different perspective and, needless to say, from direct experience:

With "you" revealed as a thought story, what remains?
What experiences?
What thinks?
What does?
What is aware?

Kind regards
Milan

Thanks Milan for your kind help. I'm already seeing some burdens lift off of me.
I'll be replying soon.

In direct experience, what is sense? Look at many various forms of sense, for example: “sense of this is good”, “sense of this is bad”, “sense of this is me”, “sense of this is what I am”, “sense of that’s rubbish”, “sense of that’s not me”, etc… What is the difference between them?

'Sense' is conclusion. Sense of good/bad/rubbish, me/not me, etc are the conclusions drawn based upon the experiences. All these senses
are judgements based on perceptions. All these judgements are based on conditioning. There's no innate difference between them.

What is the difference between a thought “this is me” and feeling “this is me” and sense “this is me”?

Thought 'this is me' takes into account my body, my facial expressions, my past experiences etc. Feeling 'this is me' is a feeling of my existence. Like I'm feeling my hands on my bed, and there's a feeling of ownership of my hands. Sense 'this is me' is the feeling of me being a separate entity.

Are you really that sense of ‘me’?

There is a feeling of ownership with every experience I encounter. Feeling light, there is a feeling that I feel light, feeling sad, there is a feeling that I feel sad, . . .

In the flow of experiencing what is that "separate entity"?

I am a separate entity. I experience all kinds of things. I feel happy, sad, peaceful, frustrated etc. I perceive it when some people look at me with disdain.

So again, is there an expectation that “this feeling” shouldn’t be anymore?

Yes, there's an expectation that I shouldn't be hurt with negative experiences.

Again, straight from direct experience, can you let me have your response to the following statement:

'I' is just a thought..so it can't be a thinker, doer, witness or anything at all?

There is a sense of ownership in feeling/perceiving/doing etc. I think of 'me', and it is a thought. I think of a bad experience from past, and I feel hurt.
I am sitting on my bed, and there is an ownership of my body.

Just looking from a different perspective and, needless to say, from direct experience:

With "you" revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?
What thinks?
What does?
What is aware?

I am not able to see myself as a thought story, so I can only answer these questions based on thinking.

If 'I' am a thought story, there's nobody to think/feel/experience anything. Only experience remains without an owner.

Nothing experiences.

Nothing thinks.

Nothing does.

There is nothing that can be aware.

To me, the thoughts still are personal. They are based on what I experienced in the past.

Hi Sparsh,

Thanks for all answers. From what you've written I would like to return to explore senses more closely. Since sensing with our 5 senses is happening simultaneously (seeing, touching, hearing, etc...) at the same time and mind is painting its interpretation on top of that, that tends to create a "composite image" or interpretation that we mistaken for what is being perceived. That "composite image" or interpretation can be simply wrong sometimes.

An interesting example for that could be various optical or other illusions. For example this rubber hand illusion video shows how easily can our perception be tricked: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxwn1w7MJvk

If you try this illusion on yourself, you'll be surprised how you actually believe that the rubber hand is your own. So even when you know intellectually that the rubber hand in front of you is not yours and you know what is being done to create this illusion it still "feels" as though that rubber hand is yours. There is unmistakable sense of ownership.

So let's try to do some more experiments with senses. Sit comfortably, close your eyes and simply listen. Hopefully there'll be some sounds in your environment. Just listen. Ignore other senses for a while. Also ignore whatever associations those sounds might trigger, like labeling of sounds, identifying them, trying to understand what made those sounds, and all other mental activities. Just focus on sound itself.

In direct experience, is there a dividing line where the sound ends and you begin?
Is there a sound and "hearer" or is there only hearing?
Is there a sense of ownership in hearing alone?

You may do the same with other senses as well and apply same questions. Just make sure you do this only one sense at a time.

This sense of ownership or "this is me or mine", is it present all the time everywhere or just sometimes somewhere?

Please, play with that for a while. See if sense of ownership is really present in every experience as part of that experience or if sense of ownership is just another experience within this flow of experiencing?

Kind regards
Milan

In direct experience, is there a dividing line where the sound ends and you begin?

I don't see a dividing line between ending of sound and beginning of me. All experiences are happening simultaneously.

Is there a sound and "hearer" or is there only hearing?

Hearing sounds I'm always aware of myself. Hearing sounds I'm hyperventilating and hearing the sound of my exhalation. There's hearing of sounds and hyperventilation and uptightness going on simultaneously.
I do lose myself in sounds sometimes, but it doesn't happen often. Right now I'm hearing the sound from TV, and aware of my body's uptightness simultaneously.

Is there a sense of ownership in hearing alone?

Hearing the sounds from surrounding and hyperventilating at the same time, there's no sense of ownership.
But as I think of this ownership, there's this sense that I'm hearing the sounds.

This sense of ownership or "this is me or mine", is it present all the time everywhere or just sometimes somewhere?

This sense of ownership is present sometimes, while not present sometimes. Sometimes, I get lost in senses, and there's no sense of ownership, while other times there is this sense of ownership.

]Please, play with that for a while. See if sense of ownership is really present in every experience as part of that experience or if sense of ownership is just another experience within this flow of experiencing?

Hearing the sounds, there is hearing of sounds as well as awareness of self with hyperventilation/deep breathing sometimes, and there is sense of ownership, while other times, I get lost in hearing sounds, and there is no awareness of hyperventilation/deep breathing, and no ownership.

I try not to disappoint you, but I try my best and have to be honest for this thing to work. I'm sorry if I disappoint you.

Hi Sparsh,

I try not to disappoint you, but I try my best and have to be honest for this thing to work. I'm sorry if I disappoint you.

Honesty and willingness to look is really all that is important in this process. And there is really no need to worry about disappointing me or anyone else. You are doing great and we are getting closer and closer even if it doesn't seem that way at the very first glance.

Everything that we are doing here is really very simple - child like simple. So please approach every exercise and question from that simplest perspective. Let's take hearing for example. Hearing is already happening whether you like it or not. YOU are not doing it. It is simply happening. Sometimes hearing is noticed more sometimes less. Sometimes there is a sense "I'm hearing", often there is not - but that has nothing to do with hearing itself.

So with that hearing exercise I was simply inviting you to look at hearing alone and to see for yourself that hearing has nothing to do with you and you are not doing it. Same goes for other senses.

I don't see a dividing line between ending of sound and beginning of me. All experiences are happening simultaneously.

Okay great, so no separation between alleged "you" and sound? Could you explain a bit more about "all experiences are happening simultaneously"? What experiences?

Hearing sounds I'm always aware of myself. Hearing sounds I'm hyperventilating and hearing the sound of my exhalation. There's hearing of sounds and hyperventilation and uptightness going on simultaneously.
I do lose myself in sounds sometimes, but it doesn't happen often. Right now I'm hearing the sound from TV, and aware of my body's uptightness simultaneously.

Hyperventilation and uptightness? Were you anxious about something? Did you expect something meaningful, important or special will happen?

Mind is used to think in subject object relationship. But is that true in our direct experience? What is hearing, what is hyperventilating, what is uptight, what is lost in sounds, ...?
Surely that "I" or "me" or "self" is pointing to something concrete. So what is it?

Hearing the sounds from surrounding and hyperventilating at the same time, there's no sense of ownership.
But as I think of this ownership, there's this sense that I'm hearing the sounds.

So this sense of ownership is present in thoughts only and not in hearing?

This sense of ownership is present sometimes, while not present sometimes. Sometimes, I get lost in senses, and there's no sense of ownership, while other times there is this sense of ownership.

So, if sense of ownership is not always present that surely cannot be you. What is it that notices comings and goings of this sense of ownership?

Language is structured in a way that presupposes subject and objects. Virtually every sentence reaffirms this subject with personal pronouns or name. So all we are trying here is to examine this assumption about "separate entity" or subject as an acting agent that does things and that things are happening to. We want to actually look and test if this subject is real.

In a way it is similar to a belief in Santa. Probably as a child you believed in Santa or some other fictional character. After all you received gifts from him every year so you had no reason to believe Santa was not real. And also your parents told you stories about Santa, maybe you talked with your friends about him, etc... So you had lots of "proof" about Santa. However one day you learned the truth that Santa was just a fictional character and that is wasn't real. Gifts you received were in facts gifts your parents bought you. So in essence suddenly you realized that Santa was not real and belief about Santa dropped away instantly. But what else changed when dropping that belief? Did life change at all? Was life suddenly different? Maybe in a small and insignificant way. Most likely your life was the same as when you still believed in Santa.

So, just be open to the possibility that this alleged "self" or "I" or "me" is exactly like the belief in Santa and no radical change will happen once that belief drops. On the other hand there might be a new perspective about life and everything.

Please, try to describe as best you can, what exactly do you believe or think this "I" is? What proofs "I"'s existence?

Kind regards
Milan