denise is ready

[DianaM]

Hi Denise, just noticed that you sent another post while I was writing, ooops.

i did not notice the releasing soon enough and can't recreate 'who' released.

No problem, just keep it in mind and be alert to catch it when it happens again.

"thanks for continuing to help me" You're welcome! :)

[denise]

hi diana,
nice exercise, thanks for sharing it.

You have observed body functions and movement, now i ask you to look at how focus happens.
Sit with eyes closed for 15 min and watch focus. Catch what is going on. How does focus move? What moves it? What attracts attention most?
Focus on attention itself and simply watch it in action.
Write what you find.
Also look at this: is there a center which moves focus, or focus moves freely?

attention moves like an untethered boat on a pond drifting in familiar currents, bumping into familiar objects, bouncing off, circling in eddies for a while, stuck on shore a bit, then blown by wind back to it's drifting, occasionally meeting a new obstacle, then drifting past it. thoughts arise, then some part of that thought attracts attention to another. in general as i am currently VERY focused on this inquiry, the thoughts in my head were about people who might be interested in being guided out of suffering. though at some point also there was a chain of thoughts about remodeling the bathroom and how that might go.
the closest thing to a center was that the thoughts were familiar to this life, nothing new or startling, no great revelations or ah-ha moments. focus moved freely kind of like when house straightening up happens here, there is a lot of movement from one room to another as items are picked up and put where they belong and the next misplaced item is noticed and carried to where it belongs and then some little project will be attended to and so on.

Is there an action that "you" control? is there an "i" that is the doer/controller of actions??

i want to say no and believe it but i also want to look at every single action that i perform to make sure it's true. i'm sure i won't have to do this exercise to that extreme, that the tipping point will be reached before it comes to that.
i'm somewhat more relaxed about getting thru the gate as i realized today that i will never give up until it's done. there is no stopping this train.
thanks much, d

[DianaM]

Denise, I liked your description of attention and how it moves freely, interesting analogy with the boat.

the closest thing to a center was that the thoughts were familiar to this life

could you explain more about this?

i want to say no and believe it but i also want to look at every single action that i perform to make sure it's true. i'm sure i won't have to do this exercise to that extreme, that the tipping point will be reached before it comes to that.

Then please do this, keep looking at the actions, take one and describe it as detailed as you did with typing, then post it in your next reply so we can look at it, writing things down is also very helpful.

i'm somewhat more relaxed about getting thru the gate as i realized today that i will never give up until it's done. there is no stopping this train.

YAY!! It looks like curiosity is starting to be bigger than resistance!!

[denise]

hi diana,

the closest thing to a center was that the thoughts were familiar to this life

could you explain more about this?

well, the thoughts that arose were similar to thoughts that have arisen before about people that are known to me. there were not totally unfamiliar thoughts, nothing new really, just a variation on a theme.

Then please do this, keep looking at the actions, take one and describe it as detailed as you did with typing, then post it in your next reply so we can look at it, writing things down is also very helpful.

Sorting Dirty Laundry -
hands turning clothes -action
eyes looking for stains - action/thought
hands applying stain remover - action
thoughts about stains - thought
deciding what pile things go in - thought/action
no sign of an "i" being necessary or present with the dirty laundry.

diana - i tried to look for an "i" today while i enjoyed spring outdoors. spring was quite beautiful and moving. there was thought and action and emotion present here. and separation between nature and denise, not oneness. is 'seeing' like a teeter-totter? do i have to somehow create more "no-i" on one side than "i" on the other?

YAY!! It looks like curiosity is starting to be bigger than resistance!!

how to create more curiosity?

thanks for playing,
denise

[DianaM]

Hi Denise,

well, the thoughts that arose were similar to thoughts that have arisen before about people that are known to me. there were not totally unfamiliar thoughts, nothing new really, just a variation on a theme.

Do you mean that familiar thoughts point to a center moving attention? Or that there was a central topic that thoughts were about? I Just ask to be sure, this phrase confused me a little.

Sorting Dirty Laundry -
hands turning clothes -action
eyes looking for stains - action/thought
hands applying stain remover - action
thoughts about stains - thought
deciding what pile things go in - thought/action
no sign of an "i" being necessary or present with the dirty laundry.

Well done!! What else did you observe with the exercise? Could you find any doer, decider or thinker making any of these steps happen? Keep observing different actions in this way.

"diana - i tried to look for an "i" today while i enjoyed spring outdoors. spring was quite beautiful and moving. there was thought and action and emotion present here. and separation between nature and denise, not oneness. is 'seeing' like a teeter-totter? do i have to somehow create more "no-i" on one side than "i" on the other?"
"how to create more curiosity?"

No need to create more "no-i", how to create more "no-i"? How could that be possible?
Wouldn't "you" need control to create more curiosity? To create or generate an emotion?

Since reality is as IT IS already, you don't need to do or fabricate anything, IT IS as it is already, it has been always here but it was overlooked. Stories about a "no-i" are not reality, only thoughts about it.

[denise]

hi diana,
on may 5th:

Also look at this: is there a center which moves focus, or focus moves freely?

no there is no center, however the focus of thoughts during this exercise, was quite familiar territory.

What else did you observe with the exercise? Could you find any doer, decider or thinker making any of these steps happen? Keep observing different actions in this way.

deciding what pile things go in - thought/action

there is a thought that says "this shirt should go in with the colds" and then the action of putting the shirt in the cold pile happens. i don't think this means there is a decider.

"diana - i tried to look for an "i" today while i enjoyed spring outdoors. spring was quite beautiful and moving. there was thought and action and emotion present here. and separation between nature and denise, not oneness. is 'seeing' like a teeter-totter? do i have to somehow create more "no-i" on one side than "i" on the other?"
"how to create more curiosity?"

No need to create more "no-i", how to create more "no-i"? How could that be possible?
Wouldn't "you" need control to create more curiosity? To create or generate an emotion?

ok, i get it, bad language choice on my part. "seeing through the illusion of 'i' is what is needed."

and now for my temper tantrum of frustration:
i am all about simple - that is why i am at LU and not Course in Miracles or a convent. also i want to see sooner instead of later so i am asking for a technique(s) that i can practice to get me to no-self faster. i'm know you and the other guides try to make 'seeing' as clear as possible, i'm just asking you to plainly lay it out for me - "seeing for dummies". i am sick of searching and about ready to sit in one place until i see and i don't want my brain to explode from going in circles.
i do appreciate all your guidance diana.
denise

[DianaM]

Hello Denise!!

I see that you are feeling some impatience about this but if it helps, I’m sure you’ll see if you continue observing in the way you have, seeing will happen.

i am sick of searching and about ready to sit in one place until i see and i don't want my brain to explode from going in circles.

What is worrying you? Ask impatience what message it has. Does a thought comes saying “I should have seen this by now”? or “I should control this so i can look faster that there is no I”, or "If i haven't seen this by now it means that______ and i should be worried", are you certain that this that thoughts say is true?

Brain won’t help you here, anytime you notice a story about what “you are”, about “the no-I” or “Denise” Ask WHAT is this I that this story is about?

denise wrote:deciding what pile things go in - thought/action
there is a thought that says "this shirt should go in with the colds" and then the action of putting the shirt in the cold pile happens. i don't think this means there is a decider.

Exactly, now keep looking for any evidence that there is a decider that is not a thought. How do you feel now about decisions and actions, do you want us to keep working on this?

denise wrote:"diana - i tried to look for an "i" today while i enjoyed spring outdoors. spring was quite beautiful and moving. there was thought and action and emotion present here. and separation between nature and denise, not oneness.

What makes you so certain that Denise is here and nature is over there? What is giving you the evidence that there is an "inside" and an "outside"? Hearing, touching, sight, smell, tasting, all of them? which of your 5 senses??.

and now for my temper tantrum of frustration:
i am all about simple - that is why i am at LU

This is very simple (not always easy but simple).

also i want to see sooner instead of later so i am asking for a technique(s) that i can practice to get me to no-self faster.

Get you to no-self? First, how does the "i" gets to "no-self"?... But leaving language aside, so far i consider we got a good and fluid rhythm in this investigation. However i can give you some techniques. I will post them tomorrow.
If you want this to move faster, i ask you from now to give top priority to this investigation. reply daily and answer all the questions, if you face resistance or fear, you observe as soon as it happens and let me know. Do you agree to do this?

[denise]

diana,

I see that you are feeling some impatience about this but if it helps, I’m sure you’ll see if you continue observing in the way you have, seeing will happen.

thanks for the encouragement.

What is worrying you? Ask impatience what message it has. Does a thought comes saying “I should have seen this by now”? or “I should control this so i can look faster that there is no I”, or "If i haven't seen this by now it means that______ and i should be worried", are you certain that this that thoughts say is true?

i don't feel worried, i feel impatient in a very physical way. i'm not used to not being able to 'figure things out'. i would have liked to see this already, yes. if i had a punching bag i'd be using it.

Brain won’t help you here, anytime you notice a story about what “you are”, about “the no-I” or “Denise” Ask WHAT is this I that this story is about?

ok i will.

Exactly, now keep looking for any evidence that there is a decider that is not a thought. How do you feel now about decisions and actions, do you want us to keep working on this?

i see that decisions don't require there to be a decider. let's move on.

What makes you so certain that Denise is here and nature is over there? What is giving you the evidence that there is an "inside" and an "outside"? Hearing, touching, sight, smell, tasting, all of them? which of your 5 senses??.

my 5 senses were very engaged with nature and thoughts were drifting @ nature yet there was still a feeling of separateness, a sense of me and it,almost a fear of really allowing myself to merge with nature, to take it all in.

If you want this to move faster, i ask you from now to give top priority to this investigation. reply daily and answer all the questions, if you face resistance or fear, you observe as soon as it happens and let me know. Do you agree to do this?

absolutely. and so i will address the fear i mentioned of allowing myself to merge with nature. this feeling of distance with nature and hesitance to be consumed by nature has been with me the last few years since i figured out that my 'oneness experience' that i told you about in the beginning of this inquiry came through seeing and appreciating nature. last summer i went out by myself in order to see if i could get back to that state, but i couldn't maintain my focus. i want to say that there is a fear of being swallowed up. (i'm laughing at that, i think that fear is real isn't it? the separation gets swallowed up)
d

[DianaM]

Hi Denise,

i don't feel worried, i feel impatient in a very physical way. i'm not used to not being able to 'figure things out'

Can you notice how you’re somehow trying to control the moment of seeing in here? Can you notice the frustration appearing about things not going “your way”? Could this be the reason of impatience? Are you in control of when seeing will happen, am i in control of when seeing will happen? or will it just happen.

”my 5 senses were very engaged with nature and thoughts were drifting @ nature yet there was still a feeling of separateness, a sense of me and it, almost a fear of really allowing myself to merge with nature, to take it all in.”

“this feeling of distance with nature and hesitance to be consumed by nature has been with me the last few years since i figured out that my 'oneness experience' that i told you about in the beginning of this inquiry came through seeing and appreciating nature. last summer i went out by myself in order to see if i could get back to that state, but i couldn't maintain my focus. i want to say that there is a fear of being swallowed up.”

Your observation and description of fears keeps getting clearer everytime, this is very useful. What you mention is interesting, because there is no merging that will happen in the future, just glimpses of WHAT IS. If you say you fear merging with nature it would mean that you are now separate and will merge later. No "state" is permanent, just something that comes and goes in the same way feelings do. And getting to a state is not the goal here as i told you before, you had glimpses already but thoughts and fears may be interfering with clarity. I'm still preparing the techniques, I will post again later or tomorrow. Start observing what i wrote here.

[denise]

hi diana,

Can you notice how you’re somehow trying to control the moment of seeing in here? Can you notice the frustration appearing about things not going “your way”? Could this be the reason of impatience? Are you in control of when seeing will happen, am i in control of when seeing will happen? or will it just happen.

now that you point it out, yes i can see that i am trying to control the moment of seeing, which of course is not possible. it's funny, i have let go of the idea of controlling things in so many areas of my life but missed this. we are not in control of when seeing will happen, or anything for that matter, this is a good reminder of that.

What you mention is interesting, because there is no merging that will happen in the future, just glimpses of WHAT IS. If you say you fear merging with nature it would mean that you are now separate and will merge later. No "state" is permanent, just something that comes and goes in the same way feelings do. And getting to a state is not the goal here as i told you before, you had glimpses already but thoughts and fears may be interfering with clarity.

this is very useful information for me. i didn't really see 'states' as arising and passing like thoughts and emotions do; if i had i probably would have been a lot more ok with my frustration/impatience and not go so caught up in it.
letting go of the 'fear of merging' is similar to when i had to let go of the 'idea of controlling', i can do that. i understand what you are telling me about WHAT IS - i am already merged but have created a mental(fake) belief in separation.
you say getting to a state is not the goal here therefore seeing no-self is not a state. what is it then?
thanks, denise

[DianaM]

Hi Denise,
Can you see that since you imagine that the goal a is permanent state and that has not happened you may imagine this is not going well or that it will take decades and with that that arises more frustration. Relax, it is going well. The goal is to see the illusion as an illusion and see through it, as i said before.

i didn't really see 'states' as arising and passing like thoughts and emotions do; if i had i probably would have been a lot more ok with my frustration/impatience and not go so caught up in it.

Have you ever experienced any state that was permanent/never ending/constant/ not interrupted?

we are not in control of when seeing will happen, or anything for that matter

Can you see the fundamental point here? why don't we control? Guiding is happening in this thread but... Is there a separate Diana here and a separate Denise there, what is guiding you? what is being guided? What is separarte from the rest to guide or to make choices?

Techniques:
This will help you to directly observe through senses, I suppose that when I say observe with your 5 senses you may have wondered... and how the hell should i do that?. Let's start with these two, when you have done the exercises, take notes about them. Post your observations here in the forum.

Observe your senses:
1) Close your eyes for at least 5 minutes, if you have more time available do it for longer (a park is a good place for this). Stay in a place where a variety of sounds are happening, then relax, listen carefully to where the sounds come from, the variety of them, the intensity. When focus is on the sounds please try to find where the sound end and you start. Can you directly experience a boundary, a limit between hearer and the heard??

2) -Get an apple (or any other fruit or vegetable that makes a crunchy sound), place it in front of you and see it, then close your eyes and imagine you hold the fruit in your hands, imagine the feeling of the texture in your hands, it's colors, how light shines on it, etc. Then imagine you start eating it, recreate the flavor, the juicy sensation of biting it, recreate the experience in as much detail as you can.

-Open your eyes, now eat the fruit for real, observe every part of the experience, how it looks, the texture, the taste, the smell, the juicy feeling in the mouth. while you are still eating the fruit, close your eyes for a moment so you can pay attention to the other senses. Also try to find the limits of the experience, focus on the smell can you find the limit between the smell and the smeller, can you find the limit between the fruit being eaten and the taster, where does one start, where does it end? Hear the crunchy sound when you bite it and chew it, can you tell where is the limit between the sound and the hearer of sounds. Explore all your senses.

Also notice this, is the mental recreation of eating the fruit the same as the experience of actually eating it? What differences can you find?

[DianaM]

Hi Denise,

How is the investigation going? got any doubts about my last post? Feel free to ask if you got questions.

Diana

[denise]

hi diana,
the power has been out. i will reply shortly. thanks, denise

[denise]

hi diana,

Have you ever experienced any state that was permanent/never ending/constant/ not interrupted?

no, thankfully.

Can you see the fundamental point here? why don't we control? Guiding is happening in this thread but... Is there a separate Diana here and a separate Denise there, what is guiding you? what is being guided? What is separarte from the rest to guide or to make choices?

this is becoming more clear to me in all areas of my life now. i woke up this morning thinking about not controlling my life and parts of my life that i don't like and really realized that i don't control. i don't yet see that you and i are the same but you are right, i'm sure i will get there soon enough.

1) Close your eyes for at least 5 minutes, if you have more time available do it for longer (a park is a good place for this). Stay in a place where a variety of sounds are happening, then relax, listen carefully to where the sounds come from, the variety of them, the intensity. When focus is on the sounds please try to find where the sound end and you start. Can you directly experience a boundary, a limit between hearer and the heard??

birds, cars, dishwasher...the sounds are all around and sometimes moving through me, i also feel my body sitting here. many times i have felt sounds as well as heard them. sound doesn't really seem to come in at the ear and i remember times when sounds are big like waterfalls that they definitely are a full-body experience.

2) -Get an apple (or any other fruit or vegetable that makes a crunchy sound), place it in front of you and see it, then close your eyes and imagine you hold the fruit in your hands, imagine the feeling of the texture in your hands, it's colors, how light shines on it, etc. Then imagine you start eating it, recreate the flavor, the juicy sensation of biting it, recreate the experience in as much detail as you can.
Open your eyes, now eat the fruit for real, observe every part of the experience, how it looks, the texture, the taste, the smell, the juicy feeling in the mouth. while you are still eating the fruit, close your eyes for a moment so you can pay attention to the other senses. Also try to find the limits of the experience, focus on the smell can you find the limit between the smell and the smeller, can you find the limit between the fruit being eaten and the taster, where does one start, where does it end? Hear the crunchy sound when you bite it and chew it, can you tell where is the limit between the sound and the hearer of sounds. Explore all your senses.
Also notice this, is the mental recreation of eating the fruit the same as the experience of actually eating it? What differences can you find?

i taste/smell the apple, fruit eater and taster have no boundary, the sound and the hearer seem to be the same.
my mental recreation was 'flatter' than actually eating the apple, not as full sens-wise as actually eating the apple.
thanks,
denise

[DianaM]

Hi Denise,

this is becoming more clear to me in all areas of my life now. i woke up this morning thinking about not controlling my life and parts of my life that i don't like and really realized that i don't control.

That’s great!!

birds, cars, dishwasher...the sounds are all around and sometimes moving through me, i also feel my body sitting here. many times i have felt sounds as well as heard them. sound doesn't really seem to come in at the ear and i remember times when sounds are big like waterfalls that they definitely are a full-body experience.

the sounds are all around, where they happen in the body is not clear, ok. Now try it again, close your eyes. Can you find where is the limit between what generated the sound and your body/ear/brain perceiving it? Or are the sound, hearing and the hearer undivided?

my mental recreation was 'flatter' than actually eating the apple, not as full sens-wise as actually eating the apple.

Yes, it is not the same, you can think about eating the apple as much as you want, but it will always be flat compared to the direct experience of eating the apple. That’s why you will never get this through thinking, or intellectual analysis, or making stories, you have to see directly in every place you can to see if you can really experience an "i" directly in any form, this is why many spend years reading about the "no-i" and don't get it. Look what you find behind thoughts. Look if your senses can give you evidence of a “you”

i taste/smell the apple, fruit eater and taster have no boundary, the sound and the hearer seem to be the same.

When you focus on your senses can you see how the limits blur?