Dance with me - A request for guidance

[John86]

You're galloping ahead of me, I'd still like to respond to your 5am post, and I definitely need to investigate this 'centre/centre-less' business more, but not with this tired mind, and tomorrow looks like it's going to be busy as well. We'll see what happens. :)

[otterrivers]

ok :)

[John86]

all through life you have been living the life of an imaginary character that only exists as the content of thoughts. there is not a "me". So even this character which seems to have fallen for the illusion of "I" and is seeking to see through ....this character that goes back and forth between seeing no self and doubting the seeing... it isn't real. at all. in the slightest! it's just like "luke skywalker" a character. made up of a collection of pictures in mind. stories of "why I am like this" etc.

As I read these words 'seeing' happens - a shift occurs, and I 'know' what you are saying, and everything has a different life force for want of a better expression, then as attention focuses on writing these words the old familiar life force returns - and so it switches to and fro. This sensation has happened a few times over the last month, but is not permanent.
(It reminds me of Van Gogh's 'Chair' - almost 'super real')
Yes, there is no self in any of it.

Regarding centre/centre-less:
<Reverse it: body is within experience. that, I can prove in DE. > OK I just managed to make that conceptual leap

But I'm not getting those final 3 paragraphs (starting from <breathe in and smell the air>): I understand the centrelessness, that's fine, yet it feels like you"re pointing to something else> trying to find a conceptual space for the billions of other awarenesses

[John86]

I suspect that the finding of conceptual space for billions of other awarenesses won't be even be necessary, but cannot see how yet! Ouch! that is so contradictory!

<...how is this or that or the other situation experienced when seen as being without a central self?">
Yes, looking forward to exploring all those situations and stuff!

Some early memory fragments are getting through to do with the learning of self. Interesting.

[otterrivers]

I apologize if I didn't speak clearly enough. that is always a possibility here. :)
let's focus on the seeing that happened.

what is the shift that occurred? explain the difference.

if you were to explain this shift to someone who had not realized it, but was curious, what would you say?

[John86]

The experience is short-lived, and like a dream the details soon fade. The most memorable impression is how everything was animated differently, for instance my hands became impersonal hands, animated in an impersonal way. yet all was animated with the same force, there was a feeling of non-separation.
I cannot attempt to describe the feeling of the state of consciousness at the time - for instance cannot say whether or not I felt a particular lightness of being, but I labelled it 'shift' because that definitely seemed appropriate.

This condition was different to what I saw when performing my 'getting-up' routine this morning, which I think could be described as being more present - my awareness took a step back and just observed (and was amazed at) all the complicated actions of getting washed and dressed that were happening automatically, seemingly without any instruction from the conscious mind.

[otterrivers]

yeah this is the shift. don't get stuck in a belief that this should always remain. awareness goes where it will.

"my awareness" do you have awareness? what has it? just pointing back at the gate. I know it is likely you were just using the word "my" in a rhetorical sense. but I would be a bad guide if I didn't check. ;)

morning is a great time for this. mental conditioned thinking doesn't usually kick in fast enough and there is sometimes a window there where noticing is just noticing without conditioned thoughts claiming the experience.

[otterrivers]

there are some "final questions" we usually like to ask at this point if you feel ready. it isn't an exam, there are no right answers. just kicking your tires haha. pouring water in the bucket and seeing if it leaks.
But first, it is very important that you confirm that YOU feel you have seen there isn't a self.
So when I ask this it isn't doubting you, I just want to know. Have you seen? is it clear to you that there was never a self in life?

[John86]

<yeah this is the shift. don't get stuck in a belief that this should always remain. awareness goes where it will. > Great! :)

<"my awareness" do you have awareness? what has it? just pointing back at the gate. I know it is likely you were just using the word "my" in a rhetorical sense. but I would be a bad guide if I didn't check. ;)> Sure. Awareness just is. There is no self to hang it on.
It feels like the conditioning is going to need load of work. OK, I'll just chip away at it.

<morning is a great time for this. mental conditioned thinking doesn't usually kick in fast enough and there is sometimes a window there where noticing is just noticing without conditioned thoughts claiming the experience.> OK.

<there are some "final questions" we usually like to ask at this point if you feel ready. it isn't an exam, there are no right answers. just kicking your tires haha. pouring water in the bucket and seeing if it leaks.> Sure. Start kicking!

<But first, it is very important that you confirm that YOU feel you have seen there isn't a self.> YES! I confirm that I have looked and seen clearly that there is no self.
<So when I ask this it isn't doubting you, I just want to know. Have you seen? is it clear to you that there was never a self in life?> Hey, stop mucking about, I do understand what you are saying.:)

[otterrivers]

I just wanted you to confirm you had seen without feeling that I was saying I felt you had not. (since that came up before).
Here are the questions for you john86:
some of them you have already answered, but please answer again as if it is the first time. :) feel free to elaborate. even rant a bit.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

[John86]

Sorry to delay, there's some procrastination here, and tomorrow looks busy.

[otterrivers]

take your time. :)

[otterrivers]

After seeing, many circumstances may arise which test this. like life is saying "are you sure? what about this?". falling for habitual illusion/getting lost in story again, is all just part of the dance. it happens or not. it means nothing if you don't attach a meaning.
keep an eye on what tries to grasp the seeing of no self. does it have a reality, or is it just a habit of thinking?
self looks for any new belief/conclusion to land on and set up a new base. anything to keep it from being seen as just a tendency in thought. (this is an anthropomorphic metaphor. self does nothing, there is no self. you see what i'm pointing at though?)
just wanted to say this.
when you are ready, you'll answer the questions and we'll talk more. enjoy! ;)

[John86]

After seeing, many circumstances may arise which test this. like life is saying "are you sure? what about this?". falling for habitual illusion/getting lost in story again, is all just part of the dance. it happens or not. it means nothing if you don't attach a meaning....

Thanks for that. It looks very much like that is going to be reflected in my responses.

[John86]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is and never has been a 'self'. Nonetheless 'self' type thoughts remain as frequent as ever. The difference being that now these thoughts are sometimes noticed.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

'Self' owns a car, has a wife and family, has a body, thinks thoughts and experiences things. and is constantly making choices and doing things. All the world is seen in relation to self. As with billions of others, the idea of 'self' is accepted as a matter of course, it's reality is hardly ever questioned. Why ever should it be questioned? There it is, an evident truth.

Yet we're not born with this concept, nor with any other concepts. They're all learnt. It's an extraordinary feature of our make-up. We are predisposed to adopt modes of behaviour and systems of thought from whatever culture we happen to spend our formative years in, including a predisposition to learn belief in self.

If we carefully investigate 'self', without relying on anything anyone has told us, and notice what is happening right now, directly, before conscious thought, with our senses, it can be seen and experienced that there actually is no self. Self cannot be found anywhere. It is found to be a concept that has been learnt, and has been given credence by, and is sustained and constantly reinforced by the people around us, and our culture and language.

Self is then seen to be an illusion. It is seen to be merely a framework of thought. Where it used to be that 'self thinks thoughts' it becomes simply 'thoughts'. Thoughts arise. Thoughts are experiemced. There is no control over the content of thought, at all. Instead of self experiencing something it becomes simply experience. Life happens and is experienced. And the world is not seen in relation to self. There is no longer any separation, no self and the rest of the world. There is no centre.

The possibility that the concept of 'self' is an illusion has not yet entered mainsteam western culture, and our language reflects this ( I'm assuming the other mainstream western languages are the same). The concept of self is deeply embedded in our language, and the everyday use of language constantly reinforces this idea, not only in communicating with others, but also within our own minds as the constant chatter which is conscious thought. If 'illusion of self' becomes generally accepted one would expect language to change accordingly.