Ingen-Sat seeker, continuation of guidance

[roaringsilence]

What if THIS is all there is?
In its full ordinaryness?
Could it BE this boring moment? Could it be this thought that says "this isn't it"?

What is all this when YOU are not there?

[Sat Seeker]

Dear guides,
Thank you for the responses.
I need to take a little more time to answer your questions.
It is a strange situation now, I'm not sure if I see, but I cannot say that I understand it only intellectually. I have seen before , glimpsing, but it seems like effort is needed again and again, as life is lived almost all the time from the "I" point of view (without a clear knowledge that it's a lie).
Today, for example, when I LOOKed, I couldn't see clearly that there is no self. The label "me" followed by sensations, was believed. It also felt as if DE has less power, or that there was less ability to LOOK. There is expectation to feel something spiritual, to be happy, while life is quite neutral and flat.
When "no self" was glimpsed I felt something, the silence of an experience without an "I" was beautiful. But now when it is not glimpsed, the "I" interfering the experience gives a samsaric taste to it.
Have a nice weekend. Will write more tommorow.
L.D

[Sat Seeker]

Dear Ingen and Peter,

IS there someone waiting for them to dissapear?

No, there are thoughts. I'm not sure if they are even verbal (and almost unnoticable), but with the verbal message "I want the upleasant sensations to dissapear", then again unpleasant sensations from second resistance, and again "I want it to dissapear" . This is a bundle of resistances that labeled as "suffering". The "I want" is referring to itself, it is just a part of thought bubbling "I". But I really have to contemplate effortfully and ask guided questions to see that there is no one beyond this resistance bundle, and there is a desire to be free of this kind of suffering. I always have this concern that I reply to answers here after making efforts to see that this is true, but it does not represent my habitual perceptions that dominate "my" life. I find that my mind is not so skilled to determine what is true and what is false when it comes to beliving in thoughts, there is a struggle to figure out.

When you are watching a film, how often in the course of the film do you remind yourself that it is just a film? Especially when it is a really good and convincig one?

Yes, it happens that the movie seems to be real and creates strong emotions.
But I know during the movie that I am the watcher of it, so I expect to know that there is "no self" without doubt and without the need to LOOK, remember, or verify again and again...in the same manner that I know that the table is not me, and I don't need to contemplate on that, and never fall into this dellusion...
Is it a fair expectation in the LU process? I have already given up temporary the expectation for eternal bliss ;)

He already knows and it is for him to see. Sometimes its time to let go."
Which is actually not so easy after some months of pointing and pushing. But she is right. And the river flows as it does.

If Rita is reading this....what is the difference between know and see?
Ingen, I'm very grateful for your time and patience with me. It's ok that the guides have expectations, it can be even benificial to the the one who seeks for truth, to push more.
Yes, the river flows as it does. I wish to see and be clear about it, I don't control this stubborn mind.
There is some stickiness, clinging, forgetfulness or fear in my mind that I can't even figure out. But the positive thing is that this mind became much softer and accepting over time. I'm sure that this process had a big effect on my life already, and I'm very thankful for that.

Hi Peter,

What if THIS is all there is?
In its full ordinaryness?
Could it BE this boring moment? Could it be this thought that says "this isn't it"?

Yes, I can accept the ordinariness of it. I just know that I still put labelings and beliefs on THIS, so what actually exists is not the same as perceived through this ignorance.
I'm aware well now that it is about undressing ideas. Most of my spiritual search I tried (kind of unknowingly) to dress reality in ideas and labels to feel a spiritual pleasure. The other direction is not easy, due to this long time habit. But I know that I will never go back to impose ideas on reality...
As I see it, boring and ordinariness are ideas. My desire is to see beyond ideas, or to be clear that ideas and labels, or any kind of name and form, do not define what IS. It is ordinary in the sense that it is not new. It is not fireworks, but the same reality seen from a different angle (like a magic show, when you know how the tricks are operating).
I find myself sometimes thinking "expereince is not reality", "I will never get enlightened", and now I see that these are only thoughts, ideas about reality that create bad sensations in the body, and this is a significant change that I can notice (before, such thoughts could easily lead to an anxiety attack).

What is all this when YOU are not there?

Just an amazing infinitely complex movie manifesting....
I see it at times. But most of the time, when the "I" label is labeled as real, there is a point of view of contraction, and all the focus is on this "I" and its small desires and resistance. The point of view is not really changed in reality, it is always as it IS, but this superimposition of a personal entity creates an experience labeled as suffering.

As I told Ingen in facebook, I am very determined to continue this process until it is clear. I have a big trust in LU, in the method of pointing, and the authenticity of the guides here.
I will keep LOOKing and posting, probably once in a few days, when I want to share or have questions.
I have a little fear to do it alone, I don't want to lose the momentum, but I think it would be fine at least to try and to see where it leads. I also find it very helpful to read threads with questions and LOOK, even though these questions were covered before. What do you think about it Peter?

Sending you both my love and gratitude, and also to the other guides that helped here...

[Ingen]

I find that my mind is not so skilled to determine what is true and what is false when it comes to beliving in thoughts, there is a struggle to figure out.

I think it is safe to say that it all is false/unimportant.

There is some stickiness, clinging, forgetfulness or fear in my mind that I can't even figure out.

That is just how it is. Mind is sticky, clinging, forgetful, fearful... Let it be.

as you say:

Just an amazing infinitely complex movie manifesting....

... without a watcher. There is only the movie.

I see it at times. But most of the time, when the "I" label is labeled as real, there is a point of view of contraction, and all the focus is on this "I" and its small desires and resistance. The point of view is not really changed in reality, it is always as it IS, but this superimposition of a personal entity creates an experience labeled as suffering.

You DO see it! You just don't want to admit it (yet).

[roaringsilence]

dear LD,
this mind can be very stubborn, it can litterally stand in the middle of New York and deny it is in New York.
This happened to me also and I took long walks and argued with the mind, trying to make it give in to the obvious.
I think it's good if you now become your own guide for a while, we'll still be here if you need us.
Look at the enlightening quotes app maybe?

I don't know if it will do anything for you, but here is my own guiding process with Ilona.
I feel pulled to share it with you so I'm gonna give in to that.
Let us know what goes on with you from now on. Trust your inner wisdom.

http://markedeternal.blogspot.se/2012/0 ... re-is.html

[Sat Seeker]

Dear Peter,

Thank you so much!

You understand what is going on in "my" mind (the example of New York was great), and it was encouraging to read your post.

I will read your thread with Ilona soon.

So I keep investigating, LOOKing, and educating this stubborn mind, and will share here...

Big gratitude!

[roaringsilence]

Do you really deep down want the truth no matter what?
Or do you just want it if it corresponds with your thoughts?
Can you take a long Deep look at that?

All the best
Peter

[Sat Seeker]

Dear Peter,

Here again after a period of independent investigations...

I answer your questions:

Do you really deep down want the truth no matter what?
Or do you just want it if it corresponds with your thoughts?
Can you take a long Deep look at that?

After doing the process of LU, a lot of the fog of "what is true" has disappeared, and there is a wish to live in truth. So, according to what I understand/see now, I wish deep down to live in truth.
Before the investigation with LU, I gave more importance to the projections of the mind, but later on the importance of truth became more obvious.
I think that there is still confusion about bliss. Very often a longing to experience divinity/bliss arises (because of memories of such bliss from my spiritual past, and testimonies of enlightened teachers), and an assumption that "I" that needs to get it. But this bliss, as the mind imagines it, is not present now, and there is pain there in that gap, and then the frustrating understanding that I'm still in confusion and still believe the "me" that needs to get bliss.
I feel that my correspondence with Ingen shaked this stickiness a lot, and I see the crack in these painful "I desire" thoughts - they are based on the assumption of "I", and a result of believing a voice in the head.
This is stubborn and probably requires more investigation and shaking... anyway,I can tell now that I want liberation from all illusions, and I am willing to confront this illusion of desiring bliss, or (the way I interpret...) "Sat Chit Ananda".
So I would say that expectation is an obstacle, it's not living in the NOW. But on the other hand, I know that I'm not happy.I just rarely feel joy, and the experience is mostly flat. Is this just a voice that is better to ignore? or should I investigate it?
Or maybe this unhappiness is a pointer that I'm not in the right track? there is a confusion about this feeling of unhappiness, and it is probably influenced by being with teachers that talked a lot about bliss, love etc., while I do not experience that at all (and used to experience it very often in the past...). It's a feeling that maybe I miss something, a greater truth that leads to bliss. Sometimes there is a doubt that realization of "no self" is not exactly the realization of "who am I" that Ramana and Advaita teachers talked about, that "who am I" produces a better experience. I know, that's silly, but I need to be honest about what's going on in this mind :)

regarding your mail:

This stickiness of the I that you refer to, see if you can sort of back out of the entire picture, almost like falling backwards.
And see that all of the objects (body, mind, thoughts, objects, world etc) in the mirror is just there and none of them is YOU.
They just appear in the sky as clouds, shifting and moving.
And maybe you need to get a feeling for this also while working, sitting in the park and not only at sessions when quitely at home. It's like an energetic shift that happens at one point and not so much an understanding by the intellect. It's a felt thing, like the whole universe sighing and relaxing.

Yes, that's the way I've been investigating it lately, by seeing that in each moment there are the channels of direct experience and nothing else beyond it. This is very helpful.
I have just noticed that I have a fear regarding the "shift". There is a fear that this process is beyond "my" control, or not scientific, an uncertainty that clarity will happen, and that I can find myself investigating forever without the grace of really "getting it". I recognize sometimes that this is a story too, so I don't get too tense about such thoughts.

is there fear of seeing this at all?
does the mind have ideas that it will disappear or something like it?
What is the doubt that you carry?
Can you try to pinpoint the place where youy feel stuck?

Right now, and as a result of investigations, the fear is not strong as it used to be. I don't think the mind fears to disappear. Maybe the biggest fear is to be dissapointed, to find that somehow suffering remains, or that the results of this investigation in my case are not radical. There is a fear that the mind will not be able to accept and live in truth. That leads again to expectations...mind is demanding a complete freedom from suffering and illusion...

The doubts and stuckness -
1. As I wrote in the mail, there is a stickiness about sense of self. The thought or image of "me" is so immediate and slippery, that it's hard to notice that it is only a label. Usually I just feel that this is "me" and tend to believe it.
Since I have noticed it's a sticky part for me, I just observe this "I" sense and try to see it's components of DE. I never tried to do it persistently, and actually see through this vagueness (probably because of fear...).

2. During investigation I often have a doubt about assuming that direct experience is real. I feel discomfort about it, because direct experience is a labeling too, and the thing that we call direct experience, or "hearing", "seeing", "thinking" etc. cannot be defined by those words. I mean, I feel that I lie when I give such an importance to DE. But on the other hand, I know that it is a very efficient way to see the illusion of thoughts (and of course the "I" thoughts").

3. There is a tendency to believe the voice in the head. I wish to see thoughts as a radio channel, that is not "mine" or "personal", and to not relate to the mind as a master...but it doesn't happen.
And regarding to the "I" illusion, I don't see clearly that a thought or an image is not reality (even though I understand that intellectualy).
I'm not sure which exercise can help with seeing the nature of thoughts more clearly. The immediate answer is meditation. But when I meditate, I lose concentration very fast (or fall asleep), and actually don't see the thoughts passing like clouds. I'm actually having a long time issue with meditation - I always expect something - to see all objects clearly, and when it doesn't happen I feel frustrated and stop meditating.
Perfectionism can create lots of troubles :/

4. There is a stickiness about assuming that I experience this life, that this process with LU is for "me" to get liberated, that there is a seeker that fails again and again to get it. Making it personal.

5. There is a confusion about awareness. There is a habit to try and grasp that I am awareness, or that all there is is awareness, but I don't see that clearly. I don't see objects as awareness...I probably still seperate between awareness and objects and get confused about it...long time habit...and I know that mind only creates this separation, but forget it

Having said that, I do feel a "shift" in my life, just probably not the LU shift. It is mostly a shift about emotions. When they arrive, I can see quite clearly their components, as sensations and labeling. And there is more surrender in life, and significantly less resistance. This guidance created a change in my life - the sting of suffering has been removed, and life is easier.
From some reason, the "I" illusion has not been seen in a similar way, there is more stickiness there. Probably because the element of awareness that joins the party of sensations+labeling.
I do see that awareness is not personal, but mixed with sensations it seems like this, and I automatically believe the reality of this labeled combination.
I also see more frequently the "all inclusive" illusion, which means that there is only NOW, this experience, and that the story of a seeker is BS too. There is a progressive clarity about the "I" as an illusion, but still some stickiness about few things.

Best wishes,
L.D

[Sat Seeker]

Hi Peter,
Still there?
I keep investigating everyday, but I'm not sure how it goes. Sometimes, it becomes more clear, sometimes it seems like LOOKing is getting more difficult (in the sense that thoughts cover clear seeing), or that what I've already seen faded. At times I feel fear to be alone with that, a fear that the habitual tendency is to "figure it out" with the mind more than to LOOK, and a fear that I get used to the questions, and be less effected by it.
I don't want to lose the momentum...

There are some identities that accompanying me, and I notice that I maintain them, specially at work - about my personal skills, and what people think about them. Maybe the mind is afraid to lose these identities (but there is a willingness to drop them as well).
Right now I think that control and sense of self are less issues, but it is mostly a problem with thoughts - I know intellectually that their nature is self-reference, that they are actually voices, but I keep believing them and trust them.
The thoughts trust other thoughts, and I'm not sure how to really get the message that there is nothing behind it, and to break this circle. This is very frustrating.
About a 1-2 years ago, I had a little realization when I saw clearly that "me" thoughts were never alive, but just a dead output. After that it started fading, so I looked at thoughts everyday in order to grasp the message again, but mind never wanted to accept it, and at some point I just stopped trying. When I remember that, I'm concerned that mind will keep denying in this process too. Truth is simple, and yet, this mind is not willing to make the step, and do not trust it enough...

Best wishes,
L.D

[roaringsilence]

Hi LD,
I'm still around, have had a busy period here.

[Ingen]

Two years and a few guiding sessions later. I'm posting Sat Seekers answers to the final questions here, for the record:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There in no such real entity and never has been, other than thoughts about such an entity (many layers of thoughts about an "I", some are more connected to experience like "I feel a sensation", and some are completely abstract and nonverifiable like "I am a special person").
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of separate self is the illusion that there is a real "me" somewhere that is experiencing, thinking, doing, while when looking at it, it can be seen that there are just things happening without a "me". It seems that thought story about a "me" seperates a certain part of experience like thoughts, sensations and certain sights, and connects it to one entity "me", and other pieces of experience is "other".
All thoughts, and sensory objects, are known by awareness, but thought creates a story that awareness is another feature of this imagined entity. Besides being a deep ingrained habit, there are facts that gives power to the illusion - for example, experience is always seen from one person p.o.v, thoughts say "I" very frequently without a differentiating doing and knowing, certain deeds followed by certain thoughts ("I will take this stick" and the stick is indeed taken), wanting and rejecting are followed by sensations that strengthen their effect, body states like anasthesia are connected to awareness, and so on.
Now, the "I" is not always automatically believed to be a real self, there are situation where the "me" seems to be believed easily if not investigated - when there is significant physical pain, or bad emotions, or in social situations when the "me" seems to be more solid. The illusion starts when the "me" thoughts are believed to be real.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It is freeing to see this, there is less mental suffering or depression than before. Thoughts lost some of their power. However, not much has changed in life, the change is very subtle, more in the attitude than in experience itself. There is no feeling of happiness as I have expected, and there is still sometimes a wish for experiential shift. However, then I investigate again to see that this wish is nothing but a thought without anyone behind it.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I have inquired over two years daily and slowly it deepened and it keeps deepening. There was no last bit, just many insights.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
All of those things are ideas about a "me" that can do anything. Thoughts and doings work in cooperation and give the feeling of control. But when inquiring there is no evidence to believe that, everything is just showing up already formed and known, and then thought just says afterwards "I did it", "I decided". I am not responsible for any of those. Concrete example - there is a thought "I will clean the house today", then later "Oh, I procrasinated again, the house will never be cleaned like that". But both thoughts just showed up. There is no real entity that is responsible for them, and cleaning, which is nothing but moving images and sensations, can be either known or not. I (awarness) am not involved in any of this. However, my experience is that this is deeply ingrained belief and it still appears daily in certain situations, and needs to be seen again and again in order to really be assimilated.
6) Anything to add?
Thanks for the questions and for your caring. I enjoyed answering them