Zen Of Chaos-this is your thread

[Rohit]

"if there is an infinte I, or god, or creator, or aliens, spirit, universe, or simple evolution, or whatever made this place then that's pretty dull and rather pointless. If we are all players and the world is the stage then why bother creating something that leaves no element to the player?

I'll give you a story: Imagine you own a very valuable jewel which is so valuable that you place your trust in it so that should you fall upon hard times, it will look after you. It's so valuable that you can have it as your security. You don't trust anybody. So you have a safe inside your house and that is where you put your jewel. Now you have been working hard for a number of years and you think you deserve a holiday. So now, what to do with the jewel? Obviously you cannot take it with you on your seaside holiday. So you buy new locks for the doors to your house and you bar your windows and you alert your neighbors. You tell them about the proposed holiday and ask them to look after you house — and the safe in it. And they say they will, of course. You should be quite at ease and so you go off on your holiday.

You go to the beach, and it's wonderful. Marvelous. The palm trees are swaying in the wind, and the spot you've chosen on the beach is nice and clean. The waves are warm and it's all lovely. The first day you really enjoy yourself. But on the second day you begin to wonder; the neighbors are very nice people, but they do go and visit their children. They are not always at home, and lately there has been a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood. And on the third day you've convinced yourself that something dreadful is going to happen, and you go back home. You walk in and open the safe. Everything is all right. You go over to the neighbors and they ask, "Why did you come back? We were looking after your place. You didn't have to come back. Everything is fine."

The next year, the same thing. Again you tell the neighbors, "Now this time I am really going to stay away for a month. I need this holiday as I've been working hard." So they say, "Absolutely no need to worry, just take off. Go to the beach." So once more you bar the windows, lock the doors, get everything shipshape, and take off for the beach. Again, it's wonderful, beautiful. This time you last for five days. On the fifth day you are convinced that something dreadful must have happened. And you go home. You go home, and by golly, it has. The jewel is gone. You are in a state of complete collapse. Total desperation. Depressed. So you go to the neighbors, but they have no idea what has happened. they've been around all the time. Then you sit and consider the matter and you realize that since the jewel is gone, you might as well go back to the beach and enjoy yourself!

That jewel is self. Once it is gone, all the burden of looking after it, all the fears about it, all the barring of doors and windows and heart and mind is no longer necessary. You can just go and enjoy yourself while you're still in this body. After proper investigation, the frightening aspect of losing this thing that seemed so precious turns out to be the only relief and release from worry that there is.

[ZenOfchaos]

Examine your decision to come here. Can you separate it from the preceding events in your life? How did they lead up to it? Trace the time line back as far as you can.

the decision to come here came from looking at spirituality stuff which came from illness which came from x,y, and z. It can't be separated from the preceding events in any meaningful way because this is the reality as it is now. But could it not have been different if any one decision was different?

Remember a time when "you" intended to do something, but didn't. Remember a time when "you" intended to not do something, but did.

every day!

You will never discover who "you" are. What we are doing dissolves the concept of "I" in its entirety because "there is no I that you are," so You will never discover who "you" are, you will discover only that "There is no you and never was".

you know I had this little experience yesterday. Think it was more of a mental clarity in understanding than any deep
realisation. I couldn't get my head around LU saying there was no you at all and yet other people and spiritual teachers would refer to "I" as the true I or true self, consciousness, awareness, or simply "I am". I think I understand how the two can be mutually compatible. As I sat in the clinic waiting I had a sudden insight that awareness (or whatever word you want to use) is always there and there just happens to be this thing (zoc) attached to it because zoc is needed as the piece of hardware for which to have consciousness/awareness. the personal stuff that is felt in awareness is not owned by awareness itself. Likewise all the thought, pain, feelings, etc aren't personal to zoc but arise in the space of awareness and then the mind identifies with the stuff in awareness and believes it is it! God, i explained that terribly! It's been a long day. You'll probably shoot it down, ha. But it felt right and still kinda feels right. Just know that I am not saying that I am awareness in a 'selfing' way, it's not even saying I exist at all. Its more in line with ET saying that we are the universe expressing itself as human for a little while. Does that make sense? Anyway....it was just an insight that felt clear at the time. Thought i'd throw it in the mix.

what are you afraid will happen, if no-you turns out to be the truth? Are you afraid to think that you have no control?

yeah. I'm afraid that if i don't have control then this form zoc could be doomed to live this life in suffering and it'll be kind of like "yup, there's no me. life still sucks.Not a thing anyone can do. enlightened and in fear because that's the way this mind is."

Here's where you are mistaken. Life is uncaused. Its beyond the limited scope of the 'cause n effect' thing.

Everything in the physical world is linked in terms of cause and effect by the human brain. It does this to make sense of things. Pretty useful. But counter productive to recognizing the notion of no 'you'.

Because you're used to thinking "X" causes "Y", you fail to see that everything in your experience is generated without having a central cause, i.e., a 'self'.

Stop using cause and effect as a tool to 'resolve' this 'no you' thing. Look at the reality of things.

Makes sense now?

But isn't that what guides at LU say? That you did Y because of X, not because of YOU but because of cause and effect. Put your hand in the air. whichever hand you chose was not YOU choosing but there were factors in the sub-conscious that caused you to pick that particular hand, or neither.

could you explain a bit more please. i may be picking up what you're saying wrongly.

[Rohit]

yeah. I'm afraid that if i don't have control then this form zoc could be doomed to live this life in suffering and it'll be kind of like "yup, there's no me. life still sucks.Not a thing anyone can do. enlightened and in fear because that's the way this mind is."

You need to jump into that void. Jump into the nothing. All the liberated have had this moment, its a scary prospect, but a necessary action. There is not other way to the truth I assure you. You won't lose anything, mate. This isn't scary. You won't vanish and disappear. You'll just see the pattern that there was never anything to call I. And that recognition frees you, it ceases this worry of what'll happen to a non-existent you. It lets you be fully integrated with the world you're in, no-resistance, just perfect acceptance of what is, because there's nothing to be afraid of, not even fear itself.
Take a look, mate. There never was a you. There isn't one now. The brain just assumes there is, because it sees a correlation between the memories it has and the experiences it is having, and it thinks that there's a cause for that correlation: you.
It's not your fear, mate. It's just fear.

could you explain a bit more please. i may be picking up what you're saying wrongly.

Every moment you are being exposed to multiple stimulus through all your senses. There are always sounds, sights, smells and sensations of temperature and texture that your senses are registering. Whether you are aware of it or not, your attention is constantly being called by different thoughts that have apparently nothing to do with the situation at the moment. In fact that is not correct, all thoughts are connected to a current situation, but the trigger was so quick or in the background that you did not consciously notice it.
There's an experience of knowing, there's an experience of typing on a keyboard, and there's an experience of trying to understand what "no self" means.
Now, what do they have in common? One thing: they are experiences.
An experience does not have to be caused by an experiencer. And there doesn't have to be an experiencer at all. All these experiences exist, but there IS NO EXPERIENCER.
The impression that there's an experiencer, is an experience. But, even then, THERE IS NO EXPERIENCER experiencing that.

I'm going to give you a quick exercise. For EVERY thought/feeling that arises, break it down into components. If there is an "I" involved anywhere in the thought (even if it thinks it's the "owner" of the thought), then do the following:

Look at an object in the room. Such as your keyboard. Don't think too much of it, it's just an anchor to reality. Take the component, such as "I", and compare it to your anchor. Does it exist in the EXACT same way?

Do this for EVERY thought that passes by. Do you feel doubt that it's working? Compare THAT thought. And then THAT thought. And that one and that one. EVERY THOUGHT that passes by. Compare it to your anchor.

The thought exists. It is being experienced. Does the subject of the thought exist?


Once you do that for a while, expand beyond thoughts. Look at your experiences.

Everything in your life, everyone you know, everything you have experienced. Use this exercise on EVERYTHING.

Is there any consistency, with all of it?

[ZenOfchaos]

just checking in

It lets you be fully integrated with the world you're in, no-resistance, just perfect acceptance of what is, because there's nothing to be afraid of, not even fear itself.

this wold be nice. at present i'm afraid of not getting this, of never being liberated, of living life through "me", through ego. Since you had posted this that particular fear of losing control has done a runner.Once that void presents itself again I will jump in.

I'm going to give you a quick exercise. For EVERY thought/feeling that arises, break it down into components. If there is an "I" involved anywhere in the thought (even if it thinks it's the "owner" of the thought), then do the following:

Look at an object in the room. Such as your keyboard. Don't think too much of it, it's just an anchor to reality. Take the component, such as "I", and compare it to your anchor. Does it exist in the EXACT same way?

Do this for EVERY thought that passes by. Do you feel doubt that it's working? Compare THAT thought. And then THAT thought. And that one and that one. EVERY THOUGHT that passes by. Compare it to your anchor.

The thought exists. It is being experienced. Does the subject of the thought exist?


Once you do that for a while, expand beyond thoughts. Look at your experiences.

Everything in your life, everyone you know, everything you have experienced. Use this exercise on EVERYTHING.

Is there any consistency, with all of it?

still doing this exercise. it's useful.

sorry for the lack of response over the last few days. since starting the new post I get up early drive for hours and get home exhausted. i try and use the time in the car to look at selfing or to be mindful or listen to talks. but i can't find a self, although from looking tonight i think the strongest association with a "me" is the voice in my head. i see that the voice just appears (and takes over) and i look for an owner but no owner. but still no real seeing.


p.s. Jeff if you're still around I hope everything has gone well for you and the wife.

[jeffdilbeck]

Hey ZOC,

Everything went very well. Glad to see you are still looking at it.

It took me a while to really put the realization to practice.

Is it useful to ask 'who wakes up'?

Do you think that liberation will make life easier for a you?

Have you considered that the organism that has been growing, and all of it's sense/awareness network are what makes the constantly changing energy labeled ZOC, that this energy, which is not static, and it's sense of identity, is nothing more than a useful illusion, that is there as you want, and can be put down when you don't?

What could be more liberating than that?

Use the 'you' when you want, see that it is not real when you don't need it.

When you are upset, look inside, see nothing, feel how much space is there in that nothing, is that nothing everywhere?

Is it beautiful?

Check this for me, friend.

Sending love,
Jeff

[ZenOfchaos]

Everything went very well.

Glad to hear it

Is it useful to ask 'who wakes up'?

no-one. i see it as an awakening of mind to itself.

Do you think that liberation will make life easier for a you?

In a way yes. for this mind it would be the absence or marked reduction in depressive negative and fearful thought. liberation from fear in all its guises would be wonderful.

Have you considered that the organism that has been growing, and all of it's sense/awareness network are what makes the constantly changing energy labeled ZOC, that this energy, which is not static, and it's sense of identity, is nothing more than a useful illusion, that is there as you want, and can be put down when you don't?

yes, but the battle is controlling that on/off switch!

When you are upset, look inside, see nothing, feel how much space is there in that nothing, is that nothing everywhere?

Is it beautiful?

Check this for me, friend.

Sending love,
Jeff

i'm not upset at the moment but I looked inside and felt space. it is beautiful and peaceful.

can you give me a pointer.

When i turn attention inward when looking for self/me, I see nothing and the inquiry stops there. How do I take the looking deeper?

[jeffdilbeck]

Remember ZOC that when you are satisfied and able to answer some questions without doubt, and to the satisfaction of other guides watching, that you will be added to aftercare for deepening and dealing with the things that pop up after awakening.

Keep this in mind. Looking inside and seeing nothing is the 'end of the road' for stream entry.

So you've seen it? You looked inside, saw nothing, and now you want to go deeper?

:)

Put it to practice. Next time something you don't like happens, look back into that beautiful void.

Would you like to answer the questions now, or later?

Jeff

[ZenOfchaos]

Remember ZOC that when you are satisfied and able to answer some questions without doubt, and to the satisfaction of other guides watching, that you will be added to aftercare for deepening and dealing with the things that pop up after awakening.

Keep this in mind. Looking inside and seeing nothing is the 'end of the road' for stream entry.

So you've seen it? You looked inside, saw nothing, and now you want to go deeper?

:)

Put it to practice. Next time something you don't like happens, look back into that beautiful void.

Would you like to answer the questions now, or later?

Jeff

"without doubt" is a factor here. Its so very difficult to truely know where I am, so to speak.

I asked the question because I fear I am looking inside seeing nothing and stopping there and I'm like "is this it? what next?". doesn't feel like the seeing is going deeper into the experience, into real clarity.

I know ego doesn't exist. I understand the egos function to create and strengthen a sense of identity. It still rises up and is a cunning fox, but i can at most times see through it and not get entirely sucked in by it. But I haven't made this leap to seeing no "me" altogether, nor into the stream of life, although I think that I have done on occassion. notably after direct pointing for a day and a half (the one where you point to yourself and see nothing. that was an amazing experience). To clarify the "no me altogether" statement I get that ego doesn't really exist but can't quite go with life just happening all by itself. That probably sounds stupid given that we have looked at exercises on thought and action. I'm not quite sure where its sticking. Possibly just experientially or in dropping the illusion of control like Rohit and I discussed recently.

must run, but that's roughly where things are at. =)

[jeffdilbeck]

Have you seen through the illusion of the I?

I know that seems like a silly question right now.

But just try it.

Yes or No.

Have you seen through the I?

[ZenOfchaos]

Have you seen through the illusion of the I?

I know that seems like a silly question right now.

But just try it.

Yes or No.

Have you seen through the I?

Hmmmn... I think I have to air on the side of caution and say no.

Only because it still feels like "i" am living life. Oh oh, I thought of a good analogy. It's like watching a magic trick and knowing its a trick but because I haven't seen how its done, haven't seen the sleight of hand, I still get taken in by it. I'm waiting for that "so that's it" moment.

Listening to adyashanti a while back it felt like I had the non-abiding awakening he talks of.

[jeffdilbeck]

A decision is made, then the I pops up and takes credit for it. Remember?

How to lose the feeling of volition? Is that what you are asking?

It just has to be seen through.

PS-we have all the patience in the world, ZOC, but reading Adya and building abstract expectations will not give you freedom.

[jeffdilbeck]

Also, when you say "It still feels like I am living life" can you just write a little essay (no more than three paragraphs) about what that means...

A few bullet points to consider.

What makes the feeling of I who lives life?

Where is this 'spirit' located who lives life through a body, separate from life?

If the I is 'energy', is me-ness stored within that energy?

Look at this from a scientific perspective, as I think it will be helpful.

After addressing these, what makes it TRUE that there is an actual I who lives life?

What makes ZOC think that the goal is eliminating the self vs just seeing through it?

Why would that be freeing, and to what?

[ZenOfchaos]

A decision is made, then the I pops up and takes credit for it. Remember?

How to lose the feeling of volition? Is that what you are asking?

It just has to be seen through.

PS-we have all the patience in the world, ZOC, but reading Adya and building abstract expectations will not give you freedom.

yeah i remember. maybe i was too quick to agree or the experience wasn't deep enough. Often I will notice something the body is doing or mind is thinking I will say to myself "I did not choose to do that or initiate that". Also if i try to watch thoughts they will just pop up and that is noticed too. I dunno, guess it's the more complex thought and decision patterns that I need to look at closer.

[ZenOfchaos]

Also, when you say "It still feels like I am living life" can you just write a little essay (no more than three paragraphs) about what that means...

A few bullet points to consider.

What makes the feeling of I who lives life?

Where is this 'spirit' located who lives life through a body, separate from life?

If the I is 'energy', is me-ness stored within that energy?

Look at this from a scientific perspective, as I think it will be helpful.

After addressing these, what makes it TRUE that there is an actual I who lives life?

What makes ZOC think that the goal is eliminating the self vs just seeing through it?

Why would that be freeing, and to what?

"It still feels like I am living life"

There is a knowing that this mind/body is alive. Without doubt, unless I really am hooked up to the matrix. But based on sensory experience there is definately life. I don't know about the grand scheme of things with consciousness and awareness and all that. i could write a spiel but it probably represents other peoples ideas and thoughts of my own. What I do know is that there is awareness of life from the perspective of this character zoc. Thoughts from zoc, inner feelings from zoc, emotions from zoc are all experienced in awareness localised to zoc. Each person and animal will have that personal localised awareness of what goes on inside their mind/body. I can't even place this aliveness yet i know it because here everything is.

I cannot find a tangible self inside. Nothing I can say is a controller or manager. Maybe there is a spirit or energy inside but it can't be a "me" because it makes no sense to have a spirit then another me or the me as spirit yet we can't find it either or it doesn't directy communicate with the mind. Its illogical to say me is a spirit.

not eliminate self because i can see the use of it (for social functioning, getting a mate, and survival). Seeing through it would be fine because you could then use it instead of being it. But to see through it and to be able to use it as a tool then isn't that a 'you got it or don't got it' thing? rather than some kind of skill that you get better at?

[Rohit]

The realization may not be there "every second", but knowing it happened and KNOWING there is no self will always be there, and its this knowing that is the most important bit of enlightenment.

It's not something that goes away, and it's never going to be "covered up", because there's nothing to get covered up.

What's happening is that you think there's no you, but still have the belief that there is a you. You can't get rid of this belief by thinking harder about no you, instead, raise your skepticism.

Test it out, throw out all of your beliefs and thoughts on this matter, and approach it scientifically. Right now, what you see of life, is it true that there isn't a real thing that life happens to.

Dig deep, make sure you really see the answer to this.