who would like to guide me?

[odemira]

Hi Liv,

It's beautiful to read your words and to see how the illusion of self is gradually being seen through - just an unfolding :)

this mind is compulsive, often it feels like torture. especially when it serves up the worst. in the suffering and wanting it to stop, the reminder is that the wanting it to stop, the wanting to run from it is the same dynamic that is running the thoughts, the 'i' thought. the reminder: this is just the weather happening in this landscape. is a complaint about wheather sane? it makes no sense. it is as it is. it is only in the surrender to what is, in the reminding that there is no self, that this is just the dream as it is. no one making it, no one experiencing it, just experiencing. in that, comparison fails, victimhood and blame whither to sanity. surrender can bleed in.

Yes indeed, once it is truly seen that 'you' are not the thinker of the thoughts, that there is no 'thinker' but just 'thoughts arising automatically', then suffering ends. Have you seen pictures of sea anemones growing peacefully on undersea rocks? If something comes within a few millimetres of them, their tentacles start waving around madly. Once whatever triggered them is gone, the tentacles stop waving. Thoughts are no more than tentacles, waving around madly in response to some trigger.

would it be accurate to say, as fear is so prevalent, the 'i' thought and subsequently all thoughts spinning around this thought or all thoughts based upon an 'i'-thought, which have through habit built up a dynamic that functions like a vortex, 'feel' 'are' threatened by looking for the 'i' thought, by inquiring about the 'i'-thought? and in that this dynamic is being interrupted and loses spin. what was taken for granted before can no longer go unnoticed as illusion.

Yes, inquiring into 'What is this I that feels threatened?', or 'Where is this I?' defuses the fear, because no 'I' will be found in reality, but only in a thought. And a thought is just an automatic happening, a tentacle waving ;)

i guess there is interest in this, because it feels good to take the comulsiveness of thinking and almost constant fear as a sign that the illusion is being discovered and the 'i'-thought losing power. but who needs this hope?

Yes indeed, only the 'I' needs this hope and again 'Where is this I?'

wanting this explanation is again coming from 'me' wanting to see the illusion and wake up and end this suffering... isn't it?

Yes.

and still protection happens right? intuition, prompts, words spoken, movements, actions etc. however this does not need fear in order to function right?

Yes, fear is not needed to protect the organism. If your body was in real danger right now, it would take action to protect itself. If the hand touches something hot, it instantly pulls away. If an object is thrown at the body, the hands move to catch it or the body moves out of the way. Does this require any thinking for it to happen?

in any case it always has to do with the future. while fear is arising what is actually happening is lying in bed or standing, or sitting. in other words not the event that triggers fear. when fear arises from the present situation, still what is happening is standing, sitting, etc.

Yes, fear is always based on a thought about an imaginary future. Tentacle waving. Not happening to a 'you'. Fear is always based on a thought that 'I' might suffer. Again, 'Where is this I?'

Oh, i just lost the last part i wrote and just had a flow of cursing....
(the last part was just lost, which triggered a flow of cursing...) :)

Lol - and what difference in the feeling created do you notice between these two ways of describing the same events? The first is personal, the second impersonal. Which is reality and which is an overlay on reality?

with love
annie

[tsaheylu]

good day annie,

thank you for your post. like the image of the sea anemone.

asking what is it that triggers fear: thoughts triggering other thoughts and so on (image of a computer program). when thoughts are believed, that are carrying stressfull content, the body has a stressful reaction.

it seems that the sea anemone's reaction to a trigger would not be to a thought but rather the body protecting itself automatically. like when an object comes flying toward a human body, it would automatically duck without prior thought.

[tsaheylu]

a seeing of a taking for granted that the sea anemone waving it's tentacles means that the creature is experiencing the emotion of fear. however it could be that this is an automatic protective physical reaction without the emotion of fear...that notion was new.

[tsaheylu]

Not happening to a 'you'. Fear is always based on a thought that 'I' might suffer. Again, 'Where is this I?'

i wan to indulge this example which is happening a lot: my nerveous system is shot. there are certain situtaions that trigger it, such as noise when there is a need for rest. when it is triggered it feels so horribly stressed that there is a death wish, just to finally find peace. this is a totally physical reaction. it feels like the body is suffering tremendeously. in those moments i try to remember there is no 'i' suffering. but it does not diminish the suffering. it feels like there is a dire need for peace and calmness in the body and when this isn't granted there is suffering in the body. also anger arises about having to suffer like this and if it's people creating this noise and commotion, there is anger towards them. this is very intense.

it seems like there is still an identification with the body running strong. i wish to keep looking for this 'i' and inquiring about who 'i' am and whether 'i' am the body to really see the illusion.

Oh, i just lost the last part i wrote and just had a flow of cursing....
(the last part was just lost, which triggered a flow of cursing...) :)


Lol - and what difference in the feeling created do you notice between these two ways of describing the same events? The first is personal, the second impersonal. Which is reality and which is an overlay on reality?

in the first one there is this word 'i', which must be questioned as to what it is, or what 'i' believe it is... otherwise it's just hanging around superfluously in that sentence like an empty calorie. when looked, there is no need for it, because the writing just happens, the losing of data happened, the cursing happened...so the latter description is closer to reality.

[tsaheylu]

indulging in the description of my suffering just now, made my mood sink low. reading this last sentence of yours, which i have been wanting to adress, immedeately uplifts. it brings me back to reality.

What is actually present right now??? Check right now.

breathing heavily, tiredness, heavy eye-lids, typing, hearing sounds, head moving around looking at the environment to describe it, seeing candle burning, seeing water bottle, itching a finger, seeing birds in the sky....and we're back to describing physical sensations...

[tsaheylu]

yesterday i realized that there was still an identification happening with my body. so i looked at it and felt it and asked, ' am i this body'?.. it certainly seems so. then i asked, ' who is beathing' ? ' am i -doing the- breathing ?`
or is beathing just happening? and i watched and 'who is moving' ' am i doing the moving'? and i watched.

i liked this excercise and i will do it more often. the answer is of course already known intellectually. it's about getting it experiencially.

i will end here annie,

for now,

such a delight to have you guiding me here!!! such a gift.

namaste,
liv


p.s. i went back to the incremental posting of one posting session, in order to be able to actually write in the forum as opposed to in a word programm. it feels different somehow...

[odemira]

Hi Liv

a seeing of a taking for granted that the sea anemone waving it's tentacles means that the creature is experiencing the emotion of fear. however it could be that this is an automatic protective physical reaction without the emotion of fear...that notion was new.

Yes, the tentacle waving is an automatic response to a stimulus.
A thought arising to 'the person known as Liv' is also an automatic response to a stimulus. You are not the thinker of the thought. Your analogy of the computer program is a good one.

my nerveous system is shot. there are certain situtaions that trigger it, such as noise when there is a need for rest. when it is triggered it feels so horribly stressed that there is a death wish, just to finally find peace. this is a totally physical reaction. it feels like the body is suffering tremendeously. in those moments i try to remember there is no 'i' suffering. but it does not diminish the suffering. it feels like there is a dire need for peace and calmness in the body and when this isn't granted there is suffering in the body. also anger arises about having to suffer like this and if it's people creating this noise and commotion, there is anger towards them. this is very intense.

Liv, I am concerned about your well being - is there someone near you who can support you? Someone who can help?
I am not sure if we should continue with your guiding, as seeing through the illusion of the self is not a way of escaping life. It offers no magic bullets that will make everything ok. It can be a very unsettling process as people see that all they believed to be true is not so. But please read on...

breathing heavily, tiredness, heavy eye-lids, typing, hearing sounds, head moving around looking at the environment to describe it, seeing candle burning, seeing water bottle, itching a finger, seeing birds in the sky....and we're back to describing physical sensations...

Yes, exactly so. You're seeing it clearly here. This is what we call here Direct Experience. And reading that focusing on this lifted your mood is encouraging, because Direct Experience is always available. Was there an I doing any of these activities, or was it all happening automatically? Glad that you are watching the body - watching your hands do things can be helpful - are they 'your' hands, or just 'hands'?

please let me know about your state of mind, as it is vital for us to be sure that you are ok to continue with our investigations.

with love
annie

[tsaheylu]

hello annie,

i am confused as to why you are worried about me, when there is no me and when everything just is as it is. i worry sometimes however i also know that 'i am believing in a story right now and fear is overwhealming so that i am frozen like a dear in headlights'. however as you said in a previous post...

The fears that are arising can be welcomed, because they are bringing you an opportunity to see through the illusion. When a fear arises, stare it in the eye. Fear is a protective mechanism; ask it what it is protecting. It depends on there being an I there for its existence. It doesn't need to protect a 'self'; there is no self requiring protection. Seeing through the story of fear, checking if it is true that there is in fact something to fear..

you are reminding me that fear is indeed an opportunity to see the illusion that is being believed just now.

it is this fear that is fanning my desire for truth and constantly shaking me awake. the fact that there is a belief in a 'me' that is buying into the story which is triggering fear, shows that consciousness fell back asleep, yet it wants to wake up, so the dream becomes a night mare.

seeing through the illusion of the self is not a way of escaping life. It offers no magic bullets that will make everything ok.

yes, but there must be a belief in an 'i' in order to want to escape..
the truth is that everything is already and always ok, regardless of the situation, and that wants to be seen.

It can be a very unsettling process as people see that all they believed to be true is not so.

oh good, bring it on! i want this more than anything, to realize the illusion and thoughts based upon illsuion that i am believing, i want the red pill!

:)

yes, who's hands are these typing? i will focus on this for a while, after i post,

bonne nuit annie

[tsaheylu]

p.s.

i just noticed that everytime i described 'my suffering' you asked me if i wanted to continue...

i also notice, that when i am describing my suffering to others there is a part of me knowing that i am making consessions to the dreamcharacter. that there is still a belief that the dreamcharacter liv will get something out of this, or that it is a way to protect 'myself' (a belief in a dreamcharacter to be 'me')...

...i will end here. i must analize further but rather focus on looking for this 'me'...

[tsaheylu]

p.s.s.

perhaps i was hoping in describing my intense physical experience that you would deliver some pointers or questions i could ask when such a situation would arise again, to remind me of truth. eventhough i know myself to allow the sensations, especially when they are feeling like terror. i guess it is nice to have guidance and here it again from another.

in the past when i had total melt downs and i could not stop sobbing and i would even be screaming of emotional pain, i would call my sister. she would just be there, totally still and say, it's totally ok what you're feeling right now. and i would get totally still. she would snap me out of it just with her presence on the phone. and she was the only one i would call, because she did not worry. she felt how good it was. she knew this, because she had been through it herself. and she did not feel a need or want to console me and make it better. all that wanted to happen was to feel this. and i guess the sobbing and screaming came from extreme resistance and a belief 'this should not be so' and a strong belief in 'poor liv'. when these thoughts stopped and the emotions where given space and allowed all was fine again...

hope this is ok with you that i shared this. it just came out like this.

good night :)

liv

[tsaheylu]

there is always an emotion of shame, when there is a consession made in believing in the dream character and going into story about the suffering of the dreamcharacter...like now...

who is ashamed?

it's an endless spinning circle, a vortex...dropping out of thought is the best way to drop out of it. shame is another pull into the habit of believing to be a 'me'...

droping out and looking...

roger and over

:)

so thankful for your inspiration annie

[tsaheylu]

good morning annie,

i commit to no longer write about my suffering.

this morning i notced instead how my thoughts where pulling in and attention latching on to
one problem after another. as it was noticed 'oh look there mind is revolving around a problem,
whichis fictive, because it's either trying to mend something in the past or prevent something in
the future, it's trying to make me right and get others to see that. it's happening like this under
the giude of seeking harmony. when what is really happening is making tee in the kitchen, alone,
and these thoughts as attgention is sucked into the story creating stress. and therealization that indulging in these thoughts will not harmonize the relationships between me and others that where part of the story.
it will just cause more stress. and this happened over and over throughout the half an hour i was making tea
and breakfast alone in the kitchen. each time a thought-story-process was dropped another one quickly slipped in,
first unnoticed and when it was noticed it had almost a comical edge to it as the thoughts where revolving around other people's lives and their problems. i thought, oh that's phenomenal, now that i made clear that the
stories first spinning are not real problems and exited the movie theater in my mind, the next register that is pulled is other people's lives and their problems. this was good, to see how the mind works.

the experience is that i cannot stop thinking from happening. and that when there is a resistance to thinking and a wish for it to stop it becomes even more incessant. however seeing what is really happening, how the thinking dynamic or mind works, this pulls attention out of being plugged into and believing in a movie. when this happens it's like the tv can be on, but there is a freedom not to watch it and the programm no longer is attractive.

although that movie will stop the next is around the corner jumping right into the next available slot.
so this is a practice. at the same time this noticing happens like everything else does.
nevertheless there is a great desire to notice and not to indulge. especially here in the forum sharing in your precious presence, i commit not to indulge in what is part of keeping identification with a seperate 'I' spinning. and if this should happen again, and you catch it, i would love for you to point it out.

clapsing hands in front of my heart* half bow

[odemira]

Hi Liv,

I'm going to answer your posts one by one:

Re why do I check with you about your wellbeing? Because when I read words of you wanting the body to die, then although I know that you are telling me your story, I am still concerned for the story teller.

i want this more than anything, to realize the illusion and thoughts based upon illsuion that i am believing, i want the red pill!

Ok, the red pill it is.

Have you read our disclaimer on www.liberationunleashed.com?

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[odemira]

Dear Liv,

perhaps i was hoping in describing my intense physical experience that you would deliver some pointers or questions i could ask when such a situation would arise again, to remind me of truth. eventhough i know myself to allow the sensations, especially when they are feeling like terror. i guess it is nice to have guidance and here it again from another.

I am here for you, to point you towards the Gateless Gate. One of the things that helps people with seeing through the illusion is practising complete honesty with themselves, seeing the delusion, which you are doing. And I've found it's also important to be honest about asking directly for what you need from others, rather than hoping that someone will guess.

You already know the answer about the intense physical experience - allow it, relax and allow the feelings to be. They are sensations in the body, powerful for sure. And the thoughts label the sensations as terror, and the next thought arises and so on - the story of Liv is created again. When the sensations are free to just be, without being labelled, they pass.

[odemira]

Dear Liv,

when this happens it's like the tv can be on, but there is a freedom not to watch it and the programm no longer is attractive.

Yes! You have seen that the tv program is make-believe, telling a story that is fiction, not fact.

I am delighted to accept your request to point out if your thoughts are spinning stories. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it is just what happens, but in believing the stories do you see how the story of 'poor liv' is created, and you suffer accordingly and keep yourself trapped in that illusion?

What is actually present right now??? Check right now.

Remember that you checked this and found just 'life life-ing'? You can check this any time. It's a helpful practice as it keeps attention focused on the 5 senses.

So let's just check where 'you' are still identified:
1. are you the body?
2. are you the thoughts? are you the thinker?
3. are you the feelings?
4. do you control the body, the thoughts, the feelings?
5. are you the experiencer of the thoughts and feelings? do they happen to 'you'?
6. do you own the body, the thoughts, the feelings?
7. are you the awareness that everything occurs within?

Please just answer a simple Yes or No to each one, and then we'll look at any Yes answers one by one.

with love
annie