What am i?

[Idk]

Hi Rowena,
I did as you said — gave each sensation separate attention, but there were pros and cons. There were moments when it went well, but also times when it was hard to stay focused on one feeling for long; thoughts started coming in and I got distracted by them (or by other sensations). So it’s still a bit tricky to separate the senses cleanly when I try to concentrate on each one individually for a while. And if I just start labelling things right away (sound as “hearing”, body feeling as “sensation”), it still ends up a bit jumbled. I haven’t tried writing it all down on paper yet, though, so maybe I should give that a go.

[Idk]

Oh, I didn’t notice you’d written to me today. I’ll read it now and reply soon

[Noro]

Hi Idk,

I did as you said — gave each sensation separate attention, but there were pros and cons. There were moments when it went well, but also times when it was hard to stay focused on one feeling for long; thoughts started coming in and I got distracted by them (or by other sensations).

Don't worry about being distracted, it is simply what is happening, no pros or cons! Just try and be relaxed and watch how your attention moves around. Keep at it, and gently bring your attention back to seeing or hearing after you have noticed thoughts taking over.

So it’s still a bit tricky to separate the senses cleanly when I try to concentrate on each one individually for a while. And if I just start labelling things right away (sound as “hearing”, body feeling as “sensation”), it still ends up a bit jumbled. I haven’t tried writing it all down on paper yet, though, so maybe I should give that a go.

Yes, when it feels a bit clearer then write it down. It should not be a chore or create some stress. Only open curiosity and a refining of attention.

Warm regards,
Rowena

[Idk]

Hi Rowena,
I kinda understand how I’m supposed to do this practice now. The point isn’t to go through all the sensations one after another as quickly as possible and repeat it dozens of times a day. It’s more about giving your attention to different sensations for a while — fully getting into hearing, seeing, thoughts, smells, etc., and simply identifying them for what they are. And I think it’s better to do this either during meditation or when I’m in a calm state, without rushing, and taking some time between the different sensations. I might have understood it wrong, so please correct me if that’s not the point, but it definitely feels easier and works better this way.

OK, but does a self-image and thoughts about a 'me' proving the actual existence of a separate, independent "me"?

No.

Please answer this question again. Look in your DIRECT EXPERIENCE as to whether you can find a 'someone' separate that is insisting. Where is it hiding

When I try to find it, I can only find thoughts and sensations in the body. So no, it’s just thoughts about “someone.”

What needs understanding? Where is that someone?
It seems like there is a someone is a thought.
It feels like there is a someone is an interpretation of felt body sensation.
Does a thought prove a someone?
Does a body sensation prove a someone?
Can they not be simply noticed as they appear in direct experience? Simply thoughts, simply sensations?

Yeah, I understand all of this, but I can’t just get it in two clicks. I think I just need to practice more regularly and without pushing myself too hard, and let it sink in over time.

[Noro]

Hello Idk,

It’s more about giving your attention to different sensations for a while — fully getting into hearing, seeing, thoughts, smells, etc., and simply identifying them for what they are. And I think it’s better to do this either during meditation or when I’m in a calm state, without rushing, and taking some time between the different sensations.

Yes, that's exactly right. No clear seeing can be done when there is rushing around. There is a moment to recognize, "Oh I'm rushing around" or "I'm lost in thought!" (The "I" referring to no one in particular, just a way of using words). And then there can be a slowing down into a direct experiencing.

The following can be a beautiful way to explore:

EXPLORATION OF THE OPEN FIELDS OF SENSATION

Get comfortable, calm and relaxed, take a few breaths, and then:
Tune in to the VISUAL field and ask "What's here NOW?"
Bring full attention to the visual field with a wide, open viewing, as if the whole body was involved in the viewing, not just eyes. You have this open viewing and you are gently scanning the visual field, looking for nothing, as if it were a tapestry of colors on next door to another, let go even of finding shapes or forms. It is not about what is seen, it is the relaxed open SEEING that is being experienced. FEEL the SEEING.

Atfer you do that for a short while, open attention up to the whole field of SOUND, as if you are opening up your whole body to the sound field, you are FEELING into the sound field, not individual sounds, as if it were one crazy moment of pure free-flow jazz. It might seem a little 'forced' in the beginning, start opening attention towards the field of body sensation, feet on floor, sitting on chair, feeling of 'forced', don't try to do anything with the body sensations, just include all as they are in this whole wide field of sensation.

And if thoughts arise, any thought, even a thought about an "I" seeing or not seeing, they too are simply an arising and falling back in to the field of thought, (consciousness) and back into the whole field of open sensation.

Practice this for short moments (or longer moments of relaxed meditation) throughout your day.

Let me know in a day or so how you get on with this.


Warm regards,
Rowena

And if thoughts return, any thought, even a thought "Oh, I don't get it" they too are simply an arising and falling back in to the field of thought, (consciousness) and back into the whole field of open sensation.

[Idk]

Hi Rowena,
The website wasn’t working yesterday, so I’m writing today instead.
I did this practice throughout the day. I wouldn’t say I did it a huge number of times, but I think I did it a decent amount. After doing this practice, it became easier to distinguish between different sensations. When I put my full attention on seeing, I experienced something I had never experienced before (maybe when I was very young). I completely immersed myself in what I was seeing, and it was honestly quite shocking, considering that I’ve lived most of my life mostly in my thoughts / events. When I shifted my attention to hearing, the difference became very obvious — it felt like two completely different worlds. It was also obvious that the body and what I see are two different things in direct experience. It became easier to distinguish the sensations in my body from what I see as well. So yeah, those are the results I noticed.

[Idk]

And I also want to start doing the practice of watching the “I” again, where I look directly at it and notice what it’s made of, and through that, understand its whole nature. I remember that this almost helped me finish the "journey", but because I stopped doing the practice too early, this “I” came back again. Anyway, I’d like to hear your thoughts on it.

[Noro]

Hello Idk,

I know that the forum has been playing up and it has been difficult to connect. I think there is a lot of invasive "bot" activity that causes problems.

When I shifted my attention to hearing, the difference became very obvious — it felt like two completely different worlds. It was also obvious that the body and what I see are two different things in direct experience. It became easier to distinguish the sensations in my body from what I see as well. So yeah, those are the results I noticed.

I love what you shared here. Please continue!

And I also want to start doing the practice of watching the “I” again, where I look directly at it and notice what it’s made of, and through that, understand its whole nature. I remember that this almost helped me finish the "journey", but because I stopped doing the practice too early, this “I” came back again. Anyway, I’d like to hear your thoughts on it.

Yes, let's go back through some of the exercises again. This is not a linear process, and it often requires a re-visiting to look again.


FEELING DEEPER INTO PERSONAL LABELS -
Exploring the sensation field.
Here we will use labels as pointers into body sensations

1. Look around you and find an object that you value in some way and say "that's mine."
Use "that's mine." as a pointer into body sensations.
Briefly describe any body sensations with the apparent location in the body and the quality of the sensations.
Does a felt sensation point to a "you" as an actual owner of that object, or does it just feel like it does?

2. Now close your eyes and imagine someone in front of calling you by your name.
Briefly describe any body sensations with the apparent location in the body and the quality of the sensations.
Does a felt sensation point to a separate individual or self called by that name?

3. Now close your eyes and imagine someone in front talking to you and calling out "YOU!"
Briefly describe any body sensations with the apparent location in the body and the quality of the sensations.
Does a felt sensation point to a separate individual or self called "YOU" ***

Notice any sensations arising, allow them to be without labelling or creating a narrative and return to the thought/sensation inquiry.

You can do the first exploration with other objects at different times of the day.

Please let me know if anything came up that you would like to share. Please avoid going into any analysis, just share what arose as experience.



THE WORD "I" INQUIRY

Let’s look at thought and the content of thought a little more:
Write the word "I" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU?

Speak the word “I” silently; be aware of any sensations or responses to this word.
Are any of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?

Now say the word “I” aloud.
Is that sound YOU?

Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought YOU?” Is the thought, "I exist" you?

Is the thought "I" you?

Now with the word "ME"
Write the word "ME" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU?

Speak the word “ME” silently; be aware of any sensations or responses to this word.
Are any of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?

Now say the word “ME” aloud.
Is that sound YOU?

Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought "ME" who or what your are?”

Now do the same exercise with the words "I exist."

Is the thought, "I exist" who or what you are?

What happens when you remove the label "I exist" ?

What's left?


Warm regards,
Rowena

[Idk]

Hi Rowena,

Please let me know if anything came up that you would like to share. Please avoid going into any analysis, just share what arose as experience.

In each case, the body sensations were identical. Every time I said something related to the words “I/me/mine,” there was always a sensation in the facial area, and there was also a little bit in the chest, although that’s not too important.

Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought "ME" who or what your are?"

No, they aren’t me. Although in some cases they did point to body sensations, and it’s already a bit harder to see that the body sensations aren’t “me.” But when I was doing the practice where I observed the sensations in the face area, this belief that I am the sensations in the body slowly started to fade away. I mentioned this practice in my previous message, but I didn’t really explain what I meant by it, so I probably wasn’t clear enough about which practice I was talking about. Remember, maybe about a month ago, after going a week or so without any replies, I wrote about all the insights I had when I started doing one of the practices you recommended (the one where you observe the sensations in the face area). I described how I started to understand that when I observe the body, I increasingly just see the body, rather than some kind of “I.” As a result, thoughts also started to be seen as just thoughts. I also described how I came to understand the idea of everything in the world being one.

What's left?

the sensations in the body

[Noro]

Hello Idk,

I do remember, but I didn't actually go back to find the exact thread. But it is great that now you are increasingly just seeing simply the body, without ownership as an "I" or "me". It takes time for this to become obvious, direct inquiry practiced many times is the solvent for this.

Also it can be understood that the idea of everything in the world is one, but this understanding is not the focus of this inquiry, it fits into the category of interpretation, not of direct experience. The only thing that is being looked at here is for absolute clarity that there is no separate self and never has been, that it was an uninvestigated assumption.

Every thought, conclusion, assumption, interpretation, can be re-evaluated through direct inquiry. No teachings should be taken for granted as an actuality. The curiosity to ask "Is this what I find in my direct experience?" is always available and will always lead to clarity.

Without resorting to conclusions found from conventional understanding, (i.e. thinking overlaid onto direct experience, the most seemingly obvious conclusions can be re-evaluated.



MEMORY EXPLORATION
Take a pause in between each step.

Bring up a thought about the past. Take a moment and look at your direct experience:

What makes this thought from the past feel real for you?
Is there any evidence that it actually happened?
What is a memory in your direct experience?
How does it relate to an apparent "you"?
Look very carefully at each sense field and see what you can find that relates to the memory or to a "you"?
Does time feel like a line or a sequence. If so, how is that known in your direct experience?

Now, pause in between each step.
Choose a simple, ordinary memory from yesterday or today.
Say it out loud to yourself in one sentence. Then stop. pause

Now bring the memory up and describe what is actually present *NOW* in your direct experience.
Take your time, and don't tell the story!

You may notice an image
You may notice words or inner talk
You may notice sensation
You may notice mood or flavor

Notice its quality, is it clear or vague.
Does it hold still, or does it shift?

Now notice if there's also a simple feeling of certainty: "this happened."
If it's here, name it as a feeling.
How can you prove that the memory actually happened?
Does a feeling indicate anything to prove that the memory actually happened?

Now do the check out loud:
Is the past event present anywhere in experience?
or is there only this present appearance with some sensations and thoughts with content about the 'past' ?

Now choose a different ordinary memory and do the same again.

When you have time, let me know how you got on.


Warm regards,
Rowena