Hi - brief awakening yesterday

[Canfora]

(I know / there is the awareness that I am trying too hard!)

No, you are not. There is no I there trying too hard. That is just a story about a you there trying too hard, thoughts just happening. The "thoughts storm" came from nowhere and it will go away, like clouds in the sky. What happens if you allow All that is going on? What happens if the resistance stops? What is there behind All that is happening? Be curious, look! Is it a you? Is a you there? Can you find it? Or there is only This going on, This amazing experience? What do you see if you look to reality - not to the content of thoughts?

[bejahu]

The "thoughts storm" came from nowhere and it will go away

Yes! This is what is happening!

What happens if the resistance stops?

After reading this, I sat down and looked into the resistance. I got to the bottom of part of it and there was a huge feeling of release, and for a little while there was clarity and no self. Then more thoughts came in. However, that's built my confidence a bit (can I have confidence? lol). The best thing, it seems, is to sit down with a pen and some paper and look at the resistance / confusion to isolate thoughts and see through them, rather than waiting for them to reveal themselves.

I also get some relief from allowing myself to be overwhelmed by the thoughts / junk.

This amazing experience?

There is a petulant feeling that I didn't choose this (which is probably debatable...) and that I'm kind of trapped here. This is a thought too... (The thought of Pema Chodron's book 'The Wisdom of No Escape', which I haven't read, keeps coming to me. Sometimes accepting there's no escape feels freeing and sometimes there's the thought / feeling like an angry teenager. I allow myself to feel childish and immature!

Is it a you? Is a you there? Can you find it?

Trying to look for a 'me' at the moment seems to intensify the thought storm. When there isn't thinking, there plainly isn't a 'me' (like earlier this morning).

[bejahu]

'I' can't HAVE confidence, but there can be a feeling of confidence.

[Canfora]

for a little while there was clarity and no self. Then more thoughts came in.

Did the thoughts made the self that wasn't there before pop from its hiding place? Where was it hidden?

When there isn't thinking, there plainly isn't a 'me'

And when there is thinking here comes the me? What is this me? The "voice" that seems to be in the head? Look at that, is it a me? Are thoughts about you, you?

'I' can't HAVE confidence, but there can be a feeling of confidence.

Is confidence needed? What for? Are you trying to convince yourself that you don't exist?

[bejahu]

bejahu wrote:
for a little while there was clarity and no self. Then more thoughts came in.

Did the thoughts made the self that wasn't there before pop from its hiding place? Where was it hidden?

There were lots of thoughts, and a lot of them were me thoughts, but I still can't find a me that owns them or anything.

When there isn't thinking, there plainly isn't a 'me'

And when there is thinking here comes the me? What is this me? The "voice" that seems to be in the head? Look at that, is it a me? Are thoughts about you, you?

It's not that a 'me' kind of comes back or stops hiding. These are just thoughts, some are very forceful thoughts and there are a lot of them. When there are masses of thoughts, they keep getting my attention / distracting me from being able to have a few seconds of space to look for a me - or clearly see that the me thoughts aren't me (meanwhile, I know that these are just thoughts). When there is space between the thoughts and I am able to look for a me, there is no sign of one. The thoughts that are about me *aren't* really about me, they are about thoughts about me, SO MUCH JUNK!!!

I sincerely feel, right now, with undeniable but tranquil thoughts (ie there are definitely thoughts, but they are fairly quiet and they aren't grabbing my attention with big headlines about how useless I am) that there is no self. If there is still a self, I'm completely missing it. There are a heck of a lot of me thoughts sometimes, but I know that they are just thoughts, even though they can be utterly overwhelming (they fill up all the space in awareness).

bejahu wrote:
'I' can't HAVE confidence, but there can be a feeling of confidence.

Is confidence needed? What for? Are you trying to convince yourself that you don't exist?

LOL - I don't know. I am open to the idea that I'm completely missing the point here, but I genuinely cannot see how. The feeling now is that this isn't confidence (something a self could acquire through thought), it's more in the way of being a remission in the constant stream of thought-generated self-doubt. And does there still have to be a self to be overwhelmed by feelings of self-doubt? I don't know. Thoughts of self doubt have been here for over 4 decades, they aren't going to disappear that quickly. They are just thoughts of self-doubt, very familiar, very easy to get drawn into the story of BUT also very easy to see through once isolated.

There are me thoughts that want to yell from the rooftops that there is no self here, there are me thoughts that want to wait as long as it takes until there is absolute certainty there is no self here. Who cares whether or not there is a self? There was a feeling kind of bordering on hilarity. No one cares. There is no one here who cares if there is a self or not.

[Canfora]

And does there still have to be a self to be overwhelmed by feelings of self-doubt? I don't know.

I can see you are really looking. Focus in "the self exists" feeling. See if this remains constant or if its more like something that seems to be turned on and off. Maybe you find out that it is actually difficult to track that feeling for even 10 minutes.

[bejahu]

Focus in "the self exists" feeling. See if this remains constant or if its more like something that seems to be turned on and off. Maybe you find out that it is actually difficult to track that feeling for even 10 minutes.

OK, a big self thought / feeling came in yesterday evening (it was even wearing a suit and tie, lol). I stayed with it and it changed and just disappeared, probably in less than 10 minutes (there wasn't a clock nearby at the time). A whole bunch of smaller self thoughts tried to jump into the space it left, but they were easily identified as very simple thoughts and didn't even need to be stayed with.

:-)

[Canfora]

OK, a big self thought / feeling came in yesterday evening (it was even wearing a suit and tie, lol). I stayed with it and it changed and just disappeared, probably in less than 10 minutes (there wasn't a clock nearby at the time). A whole bunch of smaller self thoughts tried to jump into the space it left, but they were easily identified as very simple thoughts and didn't even need to be stayed with.

:-)

What stayed with the thought/feeling, was it you? What is living life? Is life personal?
What is looking at what is going on? Can you find the looker? Or there is only the looking happening, with no one doing it?

[bejahu]

What stayed with the thought/feeling, was it you?

When I first read this yesterday, I thought "aaagh!"

Conveniently(! ;-) ), there aren't any big self thoughts to stay with right now. After generating thoughts to stay with, there is a feeling of energy rising to kind of encapsulate them (the thoughts), the energy is very permeable - it's not like plastic cling film or sheet metal or anything.

What is living life? Is life personal?

I'm not sure what is living life. It is personal AND it isn't. [Things are just coming together for me at the moment...] ...there is awareness that while things work out for this body, etc, they are also working out for other body, etcs. The feeling that, 'when I get something nice, it means someone else has lost out, therefore it's wrong for me to get nice things' just ISN'T THERE any more. When this space gets things, other spaces get things too (do you need more background or is this something obvious which I just haven't realised before?). This must apply to both parties getting good things that they need, both getting bad things they need and combinations (good is just the example I'm using here). When you need things, you get them, and others get things they need too, it all flows.

What is looking at what is going on? Can you find the looker? Or there is only the looking happening, with no one doing it?

I don't know. There is a feeling of looking, of interest, which suggests someone's doing it... dunno... lol!

[Canfora]

I don't know. There is a feeling of looking, of interest, which suggests someone's doing it... dunno... lol!

Well, look straight at where the doubt is. Stop going in circles and simply look. Why aren't you looking? And if you are looking, why can't you accept what is always there to be seen? How do you think this should be, what is scaring you?

When looking happens is someone there doing the looking? Knock, knock... what's there? Look!
Stop focusing in stories and trying to find meaning just for a moment and look! Any looker in sight doing the looking? Is a me looking at a me? Is a me there to whom the interest belongs? Can this me be found? What is really here, what is experienced prior to thoughts?

[bejahu]

There is confusion here and it's possible this is due to the words chosen to convey what I was experiencing this morning.

bejahu wrote:
I don't know. There is a feeling of looking, of interest, which suggests someone's doing it... dunno... lol!

Well, look straight at where the doubt is. Stop going in circles and simply look. Why aren't you looking? And if you are looking, why can't you accept what is always there to be seen? How do you think this should be, what is scaring you?

There was a feeling of oneness with what was observing. The oneness was not passive (there was a feeling of interest), which suggested the oneness is sentient (and thus that 'someone' is looking). If put on the spot to name this feeling of oneness, I would use the word 'life', but I really, really don't know what it is and I was completely relaxed into the not knowing. There was no feeling of fear and thoughts were minimal. There is no fear here now. There is frustration because, if this isn't looking, I don't have a Blue's clue what looking is - OK, brief sensation of anxiety in the stomach at the prospect of not having a Blue's clue... but also quite funny really.

I don't know what's there. It's probably awareness, life, beingness, all sorts of oriental words perhaps, but I don't know what it is. This is what my post intended to convey.

If this is a story - being aware of awareness looking - it's a story without a story (or at least not much of a story). Now this is a story, wondering what defines a story!

If I really don't know what looking is and am not succeeding in doing it... I'll cross that bridge when life brings me to it!

[Canfora]

There was a feeling of oneness with what was observing. The oneness was not passive (there was a feeling of interest), which suggested the oneness is sentient (and thus that 'someone' is looking). If put on the spot to name this feeling of oneness, I would use the word 'life', but I really, really don't know what it is and I was completely relaxed into the not knowing. There was no feeling of fear and thoughts were minimal. There is no fear here now. There is frustration because, if this isn't looking, I don't have a Blue's clue what looking is

Sorry for the confusion, Beverley, yes, it was a language thingy. When you wrote "which suggests someone's doing it" I pointed to "what is doing it" to help you see it's not a someone. I don't expect you to know what the "what" is, I also don't have a clue. Yes, you are looking, I can see that. Can't you also see that you are? What makes you doubt of your experience? What I say doesn't count, what is important is your own "knowing" of "this is it", your unquestionable clarity. When you asked for a guide you were expecting to achieve spiritual awakening. How do you feel about that now? Are you still seeking for awakening?

[bejahu]

How do you feel about that now? Are you still seeking for awakening?

I feel that, after yesterday, I'm through the gate. (And I recommend shiatsu to everyone!!! ;-) ) There is a feeling that, if this isn't it, I can walk away in perfect contentment and maybe return if / when it clicks to check back in.

What I say doesn't count, what is important is your own "knowing" of "this is it", your unquestionable clarity.

There is a comfortable feeling of having seen what is under all the thinking. There is a knowing that this is it, at least for me.

Thank you for being there. :-)

[Canfora]

I am so happy for you! Yay!

LU has various support groups where, once seeing has happened, experiences can be shared, and support can be had.

First, though, can you please answer LU standart set of questions? Take your time with them (you can respond in instalments if you prefer) and just answer honestly and as fully as you can, from your present experience (i.e. practice rather than theory):

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[bejahu]

I am so happy for you! Yay!

Thank you! :-) It feels good.

LU has various support groups where, once seeing has happened, experiences can be shared, and support can be had.

Good. :-)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. There were lots of 'me' beliefs and 'me' fears that thought they were ME.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It is a collection of thoughts, feelings and beliefs; mainly, in my experience, thoughts and feelings about how to keep Beverley safe. Following thoughts back to when I first remember / feel I remember having them has usually involved getting in touch with Beverley as a toddler feeling very confused and afraid and not understanding what other people were doing. Constantly, rules and guidelines for behaviour were put in place by Beverley in an attempt to stay safe. The foundation of the separate self is probably all these misguided rules and guidelines. Then thoughts, beliefs, etc, built onto the foundation. Later (as a teenager) rebellious feelings really REALLY reinforced all these thoughts and beliefs which it felt my life depended on protecting.

(Is this the sort of detail you're after? Is this enough?)

As I see it now: there is wariness of getting drawn back into it at some point in the future, but no sign of that happening now! Right now, it just isn't there. In the night I was awake for a bit and there was a load of mental noise - occasionally, thoughts hooked me in for a bit, it wasn't a big problem though. If I stop and look for it, I can't find it. When I think 'I can't find it' I feel a slight contraction in my middle because the 'I' doesn't feel right. Thinking 'it's not here' doesn't produce a contraction.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels freeing. A feeling of un-tenseness in the stomach area, if that makes any sense!!! A feeling of expansiveness around and in my body.

The difference from before is that there is less fear around thoughts. I'm not sure. All I remember from the start is a feeling of urgency, especially after I had that brief experience where I really saw how meaningless anxiety is, from a very deep perspective. I wanted that back! I also wanted to feel absolutely sure that I was seeing clearly, and I wanted you to acknowledge that. In the last day or so, that feeling of wanting your approval [blush!] has dissipated and there is contentment with moving forward from this point without 'official' support.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I really feel that I have been looking and seeing (intermittently) for quite a while (I don't know how long, time is passing very slowly this year!!!). There was just so much uncertainty and anxiety about doing it right. What pushed me over was the shiatsu on Saturday - it loosened up tension in my neck, shoulders, etc, so that life energy could flow properly and that's really linked to the feeling of security in seeing that is here now (there is as much certainty as there can be that the shiatsu and improved flow of energy are responsible).

[I will return to No 5 later.]