Hi - brief awakening yesterday

[bejahu]

How did the looking for the self go?

There are thoughts that pretend to be the self, but they are 2 dimensional and disappear when I look at them.

Why do you say "my body"? Do you experience someone inside the body (or outside the body...)?

I experience a feeling of being here. There is a feeling of 'I', but I can't find any story attached to it. When there is something to type, the body types. There is a feeling of awareness within this body, but there is not a feeling of awareness (from this perspective) within the dog's body, or any other body. There is not a story attached to this body, although, if I look for one, thoughts come up.

1 - Where is this you that owns the body? Does it exist?

The feeling that there's awareness here exists. It doesn't own the body, the body is here too.

2 - In that experience of the you trying to stop what is happening, what can the you stop or control?

Acting on the thought to stop and control, this body can be got to not move it's arms, legs, etc, for a short period (not very long, this body finds being completely motionless for any length of time uncomfortable). I don't know who acts on the thought. It feels like the thought (stop / control) is presented and it is acted upon. There must be choice involved because it's an easy thought to not act upon. Who chooses? Life chooses. Does life *choose*, I don't know, it feels like life does, there is a feeling of humour when I ask these things inside.

3 - In that same experience, can you find something that depends of the existence of a you to happen?

I find that these things appear to depend on the existence of life. INITIALLY it seems obvious that, for choice to happen (to obey the thought or to disobey it), there MUST BE a self directing operations. I feel that (this may get me yelled at, lol!) life is a self, but it's not a personal self to me - and it's not just a thought that disappears when I look at it, and it doesn't have a story. I feel it kind of rising up from the Earth, but it probably comes in from everywhere... OK, it does come in from everywhere (and when I say 'come in' I mean come into awareness), but there is an energy of it that seems to come up from the Earth. There is a tendency to imagine awareness is confined to this body, but when I look more closely, it extends outside the body too. The awareness feels the jingling of the dog's collar, as well as hearing it. There is not a Beverley here and things still happen. Things have happened all along without a Beverley - although I have believed in Beverley for a long time. I have put a lot of effort into being Beverley at times (I don't know what that achieved, I can't remember anything really specific).

There is a full day of Welsh today, and (thank you, Sandra! ;-) ) this brain is already slightly numb now... Why is the brain numb? It is necessary to process things I feel into language, which involves thinking and processing by the brain. Things I feel are themselves nothing to do with the brain, but communicating them calls on the brain.

:-)

Beverley.

[Canfora]

I loved reading your post, Beverley. It made me enter a space without thoughts, not sure why. There is still story in it but we all love a good story, methinks :) You talked about awareness but not in a "personal" way... do you think you are the awareness, that awareness is your awareness?

Oh, just remembered what I want to ask you! Can you please describe what is real, here-now? What can you see happening? If there is no self, what is here when you don't focus in the thought stream? Please describe.

[bejahu]

There is still story in it but we all love a good story, methinks :)

This is one area I have concerns in, I have to admit. I was very aware, doing Welsh yesterday, that everyone was having to bring out their stories in order to learn the language; I suppose it's just a case of being careful, in situations like that, not to start taking the story seriously... I am really getting to see how 'self's work! (Including mine, which pops up as habitual thoughts! Some of which I notice *before* choosing whether or not to act on them...)

do you think you are the awareness, that awareness is your awareness?

Oh no, it's not like that at all. If I try to make it mine (I just tried), it just won't let me - it's not fighting me off, it just exists in a different way that can't be made to be mine. I think the awareness that is here is part of the awareness, but this awareness is part of awareness, the awareness isn't part of me.

Can you please describe what is real, here-now?

This is another area I tend to over-think... This desk and chair are real - if I hit them with my hand, I hurt my hand. I've read other people say that thoughts are real, but I have more trouble with that especially now that they (mostly) just feel like thoughts and have no real power over me. Thoughts exist though.

What can you see happening? If there is no self, what is here when you don't focus in the thought stream? Please describe.

There is the weight of this body sitting in the chair, feet on floor, arms on desk. There is the sound of kids playing outside and birds. Noises in the house and more birds flying by outside. A slight breeze coming through the window. A tree, houses, etc, outside. Lots of other things like that. There is a calm feeling, thoughts subsiding... (I will go and do this some more - unwind my mind!)

:-)

Beverley.

[Canfora]

This is one area I have concerns in, I have to admit.

What happens to the concerns if you look to what is happening now?
Look, what are the concerns made of?

I suppose it's just a case of being careful, in situations like that, not to start taking the story seriously...

Entering the story happens, seeing that is a story also happens, sooner or later. Is this something that can be controlled? What can you see here, with the ability to turn the story on or off?

I am really getting to see how 'self's work! (Including mine, which pops up as habitual thoughts! Some of which I notice *before* choosing whether or not to act on them...)

What does this choosing? Look to this *choosing* and describe what you see happening, please.

I think the awareness that is here is part of the awareness, but this awareness is part of awareness, the awareness isn't part of me.

Confusing! Does awareness have parts? Are you an impersonal part of a bigger awareness? Does awareness have boundaries, can you point at them or touch them?

This is another area I tend to over-think... This desk and chair are real - if I hit them with my hand, I hurt my hand. I've read other people say that thoughts are real, but I have more trouble with that especially now that they (mostly) just feel like thoughts and have no real power over me. Thoughts exist though.

Why do you say thoughts have no real power over you now?

There is the weight of this body sitting in the chair, feet on floor, arms on desk. There is the sound of kids playing outside and birds. Noises in the house and more birds flying by outside. A slight breeze coming through the window. A tree, houses, etc, outside. Lots of other things like that. There is a calm feeling, thoughts subsiding... (I will go and do this some more - unwind my mind!)

What is this I that you're talking about? In your description of This there wasn't an I in sight. What made the I "pop" suddenly in the Nowness?

[bejahu]

bejahu wrote:
This is one area I have concerns in, I have to admit.

What happens to the concerns if you look to what is happening now?
Look, what are the concerns made of?

The concerns aren't here / now. There are a lot of thoughts about 'succeeding' or not with regard to getting away from the idea of a separate self. The concerns are thoughts.

Entering the story happens, seeing that is a story also happens, sooner or later. Is this something that can be controlled? What can you see here, with the ability to turn the story on or off?

I can see that something to do with learning, especially in a group of people, triggers MASSES of thoughts in me. SO MANY thoughts going so fast, the mind barely even slowing down - feeling like I couldn't even draw breath, let alone isolate them as thoughts! Finally, this morning, I (or who / whatever!!!) decided to just let the thoughts overwhelm me, and the feeling of pressure lessened, then I isolated a couple that I traced back to early childhood and saw through them... There is no feeling that this can be controlled (I WOULD LOVE TO BE ABLE TO DO SO!!! lol - aagh! :-S ). There is some anxiety that mixing with people & learning are things that I simply can't cope with - it turns the story on too much. There is also a feeling that this is something I have to do, I really have to be able to get more practise in this, it helps me see trigger / whatever thoughts and deal with them. (Lots of 'I' thoughts, lots of story, lots of thoughts that there is a huge amount of pressure on me to do / achieve things in a certain way...)

Mixing with people doesn't turn the story on, learning doesn't turn the story on (although it does encourage thoughts!); thoughts turn the story on, thoughts that I believe in to varying extents - unquestioned / unchallenged thoughts.

bejahu wrote:
I am really getting to see how 'self's work! (Including mine, which pops up as habitual thoughts! Some of which I notice *before* choosing whether or not to act on them...)

What does this choosing? Look to this *choosing* and describe what you see happening, please.

This is something I've been looking into since writing this! There is, kind of, being dragged along with the thought; noticing the thought and then walking along with it; or, noticing the thought and taking a step back from it. Being a self (it seems) is like being tied to a wild horse (made of thoughts) and being dragged along with it. Thoughts are dragged along with thoughts. (These thoughts are tricky things... another thought... :-s )

bejahu wrote:
I think the awareness that is here is part of the awareness, but this awareness is part of awareness, the awareness isn't part of me.

Confusing! Does awareness have parts? Are you an impersonal part of a bigger awareness? Does awareness have boundaries, can you point at them or touch them?

I doubt awareness has parts. I don't feel awareness is impersonal - it's not 'mine', but it is a kind of intimate feeling. It feels like one big lake of awareness, no boundaries.

Why do you say thoughts have no real power over you now?

If I said that of right now, it wouldn't be entirely true - there is a lot of thought buffetting going on! However, a lot of the time, recently, thoughts are recognised as thoughts and aren't starting solid feelings *so much*, if they start feelings, the feelings are more transparent and easier to link with the thought which caused them, and easier to see as just thoughts / feelings. (A little story ;-) : feelings *tend to be* like being in a stained glass room instead of being in a concrete bunker!)

bejahu wrote:
There is a calm feeling, thoughts subsiding... (I will go and do this some more - unwind my mind!)

What is this I that you're talking about? In your description of This there wasn't an I in sight. What made the I "pop" suddenly in the Nowness?

The realisation of how focussing on awareness was making the torrent of thoughts less oppressive-feeling. Probably the thought that feeling calm is good, feeling overwhelmed by thoughts is bad, therefore I need to continue to do something that is rectifying the situation. As it stands, though, deep core thoughts about who Beverley is and what she needs to do to protect herself were / are at the root of the mind activity. Being calm for a few minutes doesn't help me see through the junk thoughts causing the feelings of chaos.

[Canfora]

You are doing a great job; your posts are getting clearer and clearer. Do you notice that you are finding the answers on your own, just by looking?

There is no feeling that this can be controlled (I WOULD LOVE TO BE ABLE TO DO SO!!! lol - aagh! :-S )

Yes, if this could be controlled people would choose to be in a state of bliss all the time, I suppose. What you are starting to do is the cleaning of years and years of conditioning. Well done.

Probably the thought that feeling calm is good, feeling overwhelmed by thoughts is bad, therefore I need to continue to do something that is rectifying the situation.

What can you see here that can rectify this or that? Can you find a you that can make life go the way it wants? What can you see here that isn't just happening, that depends of the existence of an you? When you look and can't find a you, what remains that can change the flow of life because it wants to?

[bejahu]

Do you notice that you are finding the answers on your own, just by looking?

I sometimes feel this is happening, when I step back from thoughts.

What you are starting to do is the cleaning of years and years of conditioning. Well done.

Thank you. I'm just wondering how much of this junk there is!!! lol

What can you see here that can rectify this or that?

Nothing. 'Me' thoughts tend to make things worse!

Can you find a you that can make life go the way it wants?

There are 'me' thoughts that want to know what's going to happen, rather than 'me' thoughts that want things to happen in a certain way. I am confident (based on past experience) that things tend to work out for the best, especially in retrospect. There is no me here that has any control over any of this! There is only believing thoughts and not believing thoughts. I don't know if not believing thoughts makes life 'happen' any differently, but it certainly feels a whole lot better.

What can you see here that isn't just happening, that depends of the existence of an you?

Nothing. If this body, etc, ceased to be, things would still keep happening just as they are (except for obvious things like my funeral, etc).

When you look and can't find a you, what remains that can change the flow of life because it wants to?

When I look and can't find a me, there is nothing here that wants to change anything. 'I' thoughts are the only things wanting this, wishing that, wanting something else to go away...

:-)

Beverley.

[Canfora]

Very nice answers!

Lets play with this:

When I look and can't find a me

Where can the me be found? Look for it and tell me what you see :)

[bejahu]

I realised there never was a 'me', a 'Beverley' - just 'me' thoughts. I can't see how there could ever be a 'me', although 'me' thoughts will probably continue indefinitely.

Where can the me be found? Look for it and tell me what you see :)

(

Very nice answers!

This is somewhere the me can be found... I have something to live up to now! semi-lol)

There is a lorry outside, when awareness is just aware of the lorry, there is just awareness and the lorry. When my attention wanders back to your question, I start to be aware that there are 'me' thoughts kind of waiting at the edge of awareness to jump in. Trying to focus on these thoughts (what they are), without trying to see what they're about, makes them disappear. The 'me'ness of thoughts starts to happen if I need to say what I'm doing now, but these thoughts, like 'I'm typing' just float off when they're no longer needed.

I'm not sure if I've answered the question...

[Canfora]

I'm not sure if I've answered the question...

I think you did.

I realised there never was a 'me', a 'Beverley' - just 'me' thoughts. I can't see how there could ever be a 'me', although 'me' thoughts will probably continue indefinitely.

By reading your last posts I don't think that - if you look for it - you can believe again in a you, even if you want too! Ready for the 6 standard questions? 100% sure there isn't and there will never be a you to be found? Even with the thoughts about the you and the unfolding story of the you? If you are not sure, you need to tell me where we are going to look for this you next, Beverley.

Just noticed the word "realised" in your sentence. What do you mean by this: "realised"? [ your very curious guide needs to know! :) ]

[bejahu]

By reading your last posts I don't think that - if you look for it - you can believe again in a you, even if you want too!

OK, you know more about this stuff than I do. :-) I suppose a feeling of more certainty would be nice, that seems to be what you're implying. (Have I ever been certain of *anything*? Except dogs... [back into the 'I' thoughts!])

How can there be absolutely no story if life is unfolding and life is doing things through me and I'm telling people about it? Does having no self mean never communicating with other people again (except about bare essentials)? If things are being done and I tell you about them, then a 'story' is bound to be unfolding. There is guilt for using the words 'I' or 'me' ( :-s ), but using the terms 'this body', etc, sometimes feels really true and sometimes feels really affected.

Just noticed the word "realised" in your sentence. What do you mean by this: "realised"? [ your very curious guide needs to know! :) ]

It just felt obvious suddenly.

I feel guilty for tying up so much of your time! Sometimes there really and clearly is no self, and sometimes there are so many 'I' thoughts that I don't know which way is up!

If you are happy to continue, I am finding this process invaluable (whether I officially become a no-self or not!) :-)

Beverley.

PS

If you are not sure, you need to tell me where we are going to look for this you next, Beverley.

Feeling confident there's lots of self to dig into in this post! ;-)

[Canfora]

Feeling confident there's lots of self to dig into in this post! ;-)

lol

I feel guilty for tying up so much of your time!

It's not "my" time and I also find these kind of conversations invaluable. You are very, very welcome.

OK, you know more about this stuff than I do. :-) I suppose a feeling of more certainty would be nice, that seems to be what you're implying. (Have I ever been certain of *anything*? Except dogs... [back into the 'I' thoughts!])

What counts here is your no, there is no I, not what I know/think. Take your time, how could this happen any other way? And this isn't about knowing, what we know changes constantly. Its more about putting what you think you know to the side and looking at reality without eyes clouded by what you think is real. It's about seeing with clarity what is always here, always available, This.

How can there be absolutely no story if life is unfolding and life is doing things through me and I'm telling people about it? Does having no self mean never communicating with other people again (except about bare essentials)? If things are being done and I tell you about them, then a 'story' is bound to be unfolding. There is guilt for using the words 'I' or 'me' ( :-s ), but using the terms 'this body', etc, sometimes feels really true and sometimes feels really affected.

Do you expect the story to end? What is wrong with the story if it is seen as a story? Can you see the story happening here-now? Poof, the moment it starts it's already gone :)

And what is wrong with using language? How would people relate without language? I understand why you are saying this. After seeing that labels can never convey what they point to and that language helps to keep the illusion in place I also found difficult to speak as I used to do. It happens to many people. That uncomfortableness goes away, fortunately :)

I suppose a feeling of more certainty would be nice, that seems to be what you're implying.

What is *certainty* made of in your experience? What could make you feel certain that you don't exist? How do you expect that to be like?

Have I ever been certain of *anything*? Except dogs...

What can you see about "no separation" if you look to a dog? Is the dog separated in any way from life? Do the same with you. Are you separated in any way from life? Don't think about this. Look and tell me what pops up.

[bejahu]

I feel guilty for tying up so much of your time!

It's not "my" time and I also find these kind of conversations invaluable. You are very, very welcome.

Thank you. :-)

What counts here is your no, there is no I, not what I know/think. Take your time, how could this happen any other way? And this isn't about knowing, what we know changes constantly. Its more about putting what you think you know to the side and looking at reality without eyes clouded by what you think is real. It's about seeing with clarity what is always here, always available, This.

There is a lot of confusion here at the moment. I am getting caught up in the story of 'There are so many things I have to do...!' etc. I have become aware this is happening now, at least. There is much more calm than there was yesterday.

Do you expect the story to end? What is wrong with the story if it is seen as a story? Can you see the story happening here-now? Poof, the moment it starts it's already gone :)

This is what I had been feeling - the story is fun, and sometimes a bit important, as long as nobody takes it too seriously and realises that sometimes it's complete fiction. It's an essential part of bonding and building relationships. The story flows, problems only start when it gets stuck.

What is *certainty* made of in your experience? What could make you feel certain that you don't exist? How do you expect that to be like?

Thoughts seem to be challenging me about whether anything exists and whether things are really as I think they are. (Extreme example: yesterday I was walking the dog and this big fear thought came up that maybe I was only imagining I was wearing clothes. Luckily, this one went away quickly.) Yesterday, there were thoughts about whether I exist at all - if anything exists here at all.

What can you see about "no separation" if you look to a dog? Is the dog separated in any way from life? Do the same with you. Are you separated in any way from life? Don't think about this. Look and tell me what pops up.

Dogs just do what feels good to them. The language here suggests dogs are separate selves... If something smells good, dogs smell it, if running feels good, dogs run, if sleeping feels good, dogs sleep. It's unlikely that they think 'is this unhealthy for me to sniff?' or 'if I run over here, will ... happen' or 'I can't sleep now, it's only ... o'clock'. There is flow with what is appropriate in the moment. In contrast, thoughts (sometimes) separate me from life. When there aren't thoughts, there is just walking, knitting, tidying up, etc (and everything feels much nicer).

:-)

[Canfora]

There is a lot of confusion here at the moment. I am getting caught up in the story of 'There are so many things I have to do...!' etc. I have become aware this is happening now, at least. There is much more calm than there was yesterday.

I can see that you are expecting to reach a "better" state in an imagined future, where there is no confusion or getting caught up in the story going on. Confusion happens, getting caught up in the story also happens. To what? Is it to a you? Can you find this you or only the experiencing of thinking going on, here-now, that is labeled as confusion, story?

I read this LU quote today and I think it can be of use to you:

"The most important thing is that this is not the end of the road. It’s the first step of an awakened, authentic life. While the belief in a separate and real “you” may be gone, chances are, a big part of the go-based structure built on top of that belief is still in place. How big, only you can know. It is likely that at some point doubts will come up, reactions that may be considered “not useful” will happen, and (possibly deep) negativity will arise. The important thing here is that all these things used to cling to, and be fueled through, the idea of self, which is now seen as an illusion. So whenever thoughts or emotions come up that are judged to be negative, don’t avoid, don’t fight, don’t argue. Just stay with them, and watch them happen and unfold. It’s not personal, so it has nowhere to stick to. This kind of cleanup is obviously not a pleasant process, but you’ll likely realize that it actually works. All you have to do is take your hands off the steering wheel and let things burn when they are set on fire."

In contrast, thoughts (sometimes) separate me from life.

No they don't. There is no you that can be separated from life, is there?
Have a look now, don't be afraid. Can you see this you, can you see separation? Look for them... What is really going on? Stay with What Is for a while and tell me what you see.

[bejahu]

I can see that you are expecting to reach a "better" state in an imagined future, where there is no confusion or getting caught up in the story going on. Confusion happens, getting caught up in the story also happens. To what? Is it to a you? Can you find this you or only the experiencing of thinking going on, here-now, that is labeled as confusion, story?

There is a feeling that all these thoughts are focussed in the head, specifically in my brain, boiling away... If I stop and look, the thoughts are not just inside the head - although there's still the boiling feeling in my brain (not heat! just furious bubbles). I had got used to the idea that there wouldn't be a feeling of certainty, but then this feeling of uncertainty seemed to become an issue and I kind of latched onto the idea that that must mean that seeing through the self means there is some certainty, and not just while there is absolute absence of self and having a self makes no sense.

It is likely that at some point doubts will come up, reactions that may be considered “not useful” will happen, and (possibly deep) negativity will arise. The important thing here is that all these things used to cling to, and be fueled through, the idea of self, which is now seen as an illusion. So whenever thoughts or emotions come up that are judged to be negative, don’t avoid, don’t fight, don’t argue. Just stay with them, and watch them happen and unfold. It’s not personal, so it has nowhere to stick to. This kind of cleanup is obviously not a pleasant process, but you’ll likely realize that it actually works.

This is what's happening here now: getting stuck in story / thoughts, (gradually!) fully realising it's just story / thoughts, and seeing through it / letting it go. It seems necessary, certainly with the most determined thoughts, to see exactly what the thought is so it can be challenged. There are a bunch of thoughts at the moment and I isolated and challenged a couple this morning, but there are more that haven't been identified. At some point, they'll be identified and I'll deal with them. Once they've been identified, challenging them and seeing through them is relatively easy.

No they don't. There is no you that can be separated from life, is there?
Have a look now, don't be afraid. Can you see this you, can you see separation? Look for them... What is really going on? Stay with What Is for a while and tell me what you see.

There is so much turmoil, so many thoughts vying for attention. I remember the last time this happened, the other day, the core thought was identified and seen through and the others subsided. Sometimes I look for a 'me' and there is a fairly solid me thought - this morning there was a me thought in the shape of my body which kept insisting it was a self because it had clothes and shoes... this was all it had to offer, and it was definitely a thought. If I look for a 'me' now, I get a voice yelling 'Who the hell do you think it is with all these d*mn thoughts in their head?', but this is just a voice thought, there's nothing else there.

Feeling a little more focussed now. All I can see is this body, in the middle of other bodies (cat, dog, chair, etc), with awareness in it that is being tied in knots by thought. There is no separation. The cat and dog and this body are the same sort of thing as the chair and bed. As for this awareness... this body is taking it downstairs to do some knitting and try to get these thoughts to settle so I can see what they are.

(I know / there is the awareness that I am trying too hard!)