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[Jello]

Is there any self, any you, to be found in this sensing, prior to concepts?

Only the knowing of it all.

Yes, there are what we call colours, and the shapes that are formed between different colours.

But, in direct experience, can you even experience (a) colour as in any way separate from seeing?

Not separate from seeing. The seeing is the colour and the colour is the seeing.

That's my experience too. But, as with the previous point, the thought (if one arises) that says look at the immediately previous thought, itself just arises unbidden and so you don't know it's coming anyway, as you've seen.

Yes a thought follows that moment of seeing, a thought that reflects on the previous thought train.

Very good question. Because the table thought is the I thought. That's strange, it's like every thought is a self thought in some respect. Every thought reaffirms the self as the centre of all experience.

You're absolutely on the right lines here, but can you say a bit more about what you're saying in these statements and how they relate to your direct experience.

Every thought is to uphold the sense of a 'me' and an outside world that is a certain way. A table is not seen as it truly is, but as an object, and a perception of how that object fits in to the story of 'me'. I know the object from the story of my relationship with all different tables over my lifetime. I have an emotional understanding of the table that is not real, it is a story. Not sure how else to explain.

It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?

How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing?
Try all kinds of stuff.

Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?

Look to see whether, when 'you' do these things there is sometimes a thought, just after that says, 'I did that.'

Are all actions automatic?

This is becoming increasingly clear. It is all running on automatic. There are all kinds of different thoughts, some say, I did that, others say 'I should do that', 'I ought to do that', I should've done that, ,maybe I'll do that', and so on. Sometimes the ongoing dialogue is stronger and harsher than other times, more believable etc etc. Sometimes it is a real solar storm.

Will continue to look more into this today. Crazy stuff!

Excellent guidance Pete, this is revealing a lot!

Jon

[moondog]

Hi Jon,

Is there any self, any you, to be found in this sensing, prior to concepts?

Only the knowing of it all.

Precisely. And the knowing of it all is none other than awareness.

But, in direct experience, can you even experience (a) colour as in any way separate from seeing?

Not separate from seeing. The seeing is the colour and the colour is the seeing.

That's right, there's just seeing, just experiencing.

Every thought is to uphold the sense of a 'me' and an outside world that is a certain way. A table is not seen as it truly is, but as an object, and a perception of how that object fits in to the story of 'me'. I know the object from the story of my relationship with all different tables over my lifetime. I have an emotional understanding of the table that is not real, it is a story. Not sure how else to explain.

No need to explain further. That says it well.

This is becoming increasingly clear. It is all running on automatic. There are all kinds of different thoughts, some say, I did that, others say 'I should do that', 'I ought to do that', I should've done that, ,maybe I'll do that', and so on. Sometimes the ongoing dialogue is stronger and harsher than other times, more believable etc etc. Sometimes it is a real solar storm.

I'm really pleased that you can see - in direct experience - that there's no one anywhere running the show, no 'little man' hiding behind the curtains, or behind your forehead, but just life living itself in this moment.

Will continue to look more into this today. Crazy stuff!
Excellent guidance Pete, this is revealing a lot!

Yes, it's good to keep looking, looking, looking. It's my pleasure to help you to look, and in the right places.

Let's move on to choosing/deciding. I always find that there's quite an overlap between this and actions and controlling but, if anything, that helps to deepen the so, here goes:

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) raise my right arm' come after the event itself?

Also, can I ask you to have a look at the following short video clip from BBC Horizon - The Secret You on Neuroscience and Freewill: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3AiOS4nCE . It demonstrates scientifically that our decisions and choices are made a full 6 seconds before we think we make them, i.e. before a thought arises saying, "I decided to do this." There is no substitute for looking in direct experience, but this is excellent scientific corroboration for what is to be found, or rather not found, in direct experience.

Pete

[Jello]

Yes, it's good to keep looking, looking, looking. It's my pleasure to help you to look, and in the right places.

Great. I had a strange day yesterday, had a lot on. It was quite apparent when I got home that this body mind is like a complex processing machine. It all just happens automatically. There is no controller, only observed.

Let's move on to choosing/deciding. I always find that there's quite an overlap between this and actions and controlling but, if anything, that helps to deepen the so, here goes:

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) raise my right arm' come after the event itself?

Wow, I really don't know. I can't find the chooser. Thoughts play around the experience, but what it is that makes this body mind do what it does, when it does, I've no idea. It's like I've no choice when the arm is actually lifted.. It seems to spring forth from some intention. It's energy.

Also, can I ask you to have a look at the following short video clip from BBC Horizon - The Secret You on Neuroscience and Freewill: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3AiOS4nCE . It demonstrates scientifically that our decisions and choices are made a full 6 seconds before we think we make them, i.e. before a thought arises saying, "I decided to do this." There is no substitute for looking in direct experience, but this is excellent scientific corroboration for what is to be found, or rather not found, in direct experience.

Wow. And six seconds isn't a short amount of time! The I we think we are is a story of choice, right and wrong, and so on. All perceptions make up this story too. I must say I was noticing this yesterday, so much so that I realized the mind was processing and the body was re-communicating before I even had a chance to think about it, so to speak. How could I be making any of these decisions?

Jon

[moondog]

Hi Jon,

Great. I had a strange day yesterday, had a lot on. It was quite apparent when I got home that this body mind is like a complex processing machine. It all just happens automatically. There is no controller, only observed.

It's good that, even when busy or stressed, when the illusion of a separate self can tend to be at it's strongest, you were able to see that everything, i.e. all experience, simply just happens, just is what it is.

Wow, I really don't know. I can't find the chooser. Thoughts play around the experience, but what it is that makes this body mind do what it does, when it does, I've no idea. It's like I've no choice when the arm is actually lifted.. It seems to spring forth from some intention. It's energy.

It's amazing to see that happening isn't it. What we call decisions arise all the time, seemingly out of nowhere. Of course, they always have; it's just that, without looking in direct experience, there is a believed, unquestioned assumption that, 'I chose that', 'I decided that should happen' etc. This never was, is or could be the case, and yet life always just unfolds in the only way that it can.

Wow. And six seconds isn't a short amount of time! The I we think we are is a story of choice, right and wrong, and so on. All perceptions make up this story too. I must say I was noticing this yesterday, so much so that I realized the mind was processing and the body was re-communicating before I even had a chance to think about it, so to speak. How could I be making any of these decisions?

Great, you seem to be seeing this clearly and ever more deeply. I'm really pleased with how this is going for you.

So, you've looked for a self in thinking, seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, feeling, smelling, doing, controlling, choosing and deciding and no self, no you, has been found present or doing anything. One area we haven't yet looked at is the body, and whether the self is the body, or is in the body. From direct experience:

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Pete

[Jello]

It's amazing to see that happening isn't it. What we call decisions arise all the time, seemingly out of nowhere. Of course, they always have; it's just that, without looking in direct experience, there is a believed, unquestioned assumption that, 'I chose that', 'I decided that should happen' etc. This never was, is or could be the case, and yet life always just unfolds in the only way that it can.

yes it's that it goes unquestioned for so long that's the worrying part! It is becoming increasingly clear that it's all happening automatically.

Great, you seem to be seeing this clearly and ever more deeply. I'm really pleased with how this is going for you.

Thank you, yes I'm pleased too. It's all really quite bizarre mind you.

So, you've looked for a self in thinking, seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, feeling, smelling, doing, controlling, choosing and deciding and no self, no you, has been found present or doing anything. One area we haven't yet looked at is the body, and whether the self is the body, or is in the body. From direct experience:

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

Awareness experiences the bodily sensations, and mental thoughts. I suppose there is nothing to say these thoughts/sensations are coming from the body, although, for example, I can both FEEL my fingers typing, and SEE the colours of them dancing around, it's like one sense supports the other to prove that it's the body. I'm not sure the body experiences anything, but it is all experienced somehow.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Yes this makes sense. Though body also refers to that which is seen, i.e hands typing etc, the arms that always seem to be doing stuff at the bottom of the screen, or the skin coloured reflection in the mirror etc. If I see my hand pinching the skin on my other arm, I will also feel a sharp sensation. One corresponds the other. Is the body a story too? :s

jon

[moondog]

Hi Jon,

Awareness experiences the bodily sensations, and mental thoughts. I suppose there is nothing to say these thoughts/sensations are coming from the body, although, for example, I can both FEEL my fingers typing, and SEE the colours of them dancing around, it's like one sense supports the other to prove that it's the body. I'm not sure the body experiences anything, but it is all experienced somehow.

Yes, it's as if the conventional image, our concept, of the body is comprised of and reinforced by this combination of various sense arisings appearing at the same time. But, as you've seen, there's no 'body' as such in direct experience, just these sense arisings.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Yes this makes sense. Though body also refers to that which is seen, i.e hands typing etc, the arms that always seem to be doing stuff at the bottom of the screen, or the skin coloured reflection in the mirror etc. If I see my hand pinching the skin on my other arm, I will also feel a sharp sensation. One corresponds the other. Is the body a story too? :s

Good observations of 'your' direct experience. Clearly, as you can't even find any body (or indeed anybody) in direct experience, in turn, there can be no separate self in or as the body. The body is, as you suggest, just another story, albeit a very convenient one for everyday communication etc.

Well Jon, that's all the various areas of experience looked at, and you haven't been able to find a self in any of them. So, let's just have a look from a slightly different perspective.

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?

Pete

[Jello]

Hi Pete. Got in very late after a long day today so will have to reply tomorrow afternoon now. Excellent stuff though!!

[Jello]

Hi Pete sorry for late one.

Well Jon, that's all the various areas of experience looked at, and you haven't been able to find a self in any of them. So, let's just have a look from a slightly different perspective

.

What experiences?

no idea. Experience is only known. It is not known by what it is known. This knowing could be called 'I', but I don't know what 'I' is.

What thinks?

Awareness thinks. All objects, however subtle, appear as the knowing of them all. It's as if the very knowing twists and stretches itself to create appearances and imaginings before relaxing back into objectlessness..

What does?

Nothing. It flows seamlessly.

What is aware?[/b]

The same thing that experiences. Although it does't appear as a 'thing' at all

Jon

[moondog]

Hi Jon,

Great answers.

Experience is only known. It is not known by what it is known. This knowing could be called 'I', but I don't know what 'I' is.

It seems clear from all that you've been saying to me that you don't at all mean that this knowing that becould be called 'I' is in any way, shape or form a separate self-entity but, just for the record, and to absolutely sure, can you please confirm that to me Jon. (It sounds like you're referring to what could be called awareness or consciousness and indeed you appear say as much in your next answer.)

Anyway, this seems like a good time just briefly to review everything we've done so far, to see if you need to revisit any aspects to look in more depth for any self lurking about somewhere in the shadows.

As always, in direct experience:

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

It's a bit if a long list of questions but the answers can be brief unless, of course, there's something you want to examine some more. It doesn't look to me as if there is much, if anything, but basically, we just need to tidy up and identify any areas that need to be looked into a bit more deeply, or clarified.

Nice going Jon.

Pete

[Jello]

Hi Jon,

Great answers.

Experience is only known. It is not known by what it is known. This knowing could be called 'I', but I don't know what 'I' is.

It seems clear from all that you've been saying to me that you don't at all mean that this knowing that becould be called 'I' is in any way, shape or form a separate self-entity but, just for the record, and to absolutely sure, can you please confirm that to me Jon. (It sounds like you're referring to what could be called awareness or consciousness and indeed you appear say as much in your next answer.)

When I think about this 'I', it appears in the mind as a very spacious nothing, so still something. But this is just the mind's conceptualization of something that can't be conceptualized. No entity whatsoever can be found, even though it is assumed that intentions spring forth from somewhere. There is no controller here. It feels as if knowing is coming to re-find itself as blissful objectlessness.

This objectlessness still gets a little mixed up with identification though. So for a while, this knowing may think itself to be a limited, yet somewhat awakened, body-mind. Jon still lives his life and gets involved in the story. Jon still worries about stuff too.

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Not as an object, no. It is only known that it is known. It is undeniable that experience is happening, but to what, is unclear and impossible to find. Freaky. . . .

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

No because thoughts and decisions just happen. The story is like an attempt to control what can't be controlled, and this causes great discomfort.

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Thank god the self I though I was, never made decisions. . . Frightening. No, I trust the flow now.

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

This one is a bit more sticky. It feels as if awareness is thinking. But awareness certainly isn't an object. Awareness feels like 'me', but this 'me' is unable to do anything but be a fly on the wall, so to speak. So how could awareness be thinking? No idea where thoughts comes from, what the hell they are, or for that matter what any of this is. But I know it is known. Damn.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Yes.

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

It feels like they are made to arise from somewhere. What that is I've no idea. By the body? No. Body is a dream, these senses are just intruding on the dream.

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

No but there is a story of one, and the feelings of nervous system contractions and tensions that come with it. It is a bit like groundhog day. You know you are in it but you can't get out of it.

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Not really. The mind has to have something to conceptualize I suppose. It doesn't answer what the mind is or where it comes from though, nor where anything comes from. Why is there experiencing at all? Anything conceived as an entity, is only an imagining.

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

Only that it still plays out and identification happens on a daily basis. Some aspects of experience burn more than others, are more believable and addictive than others. Mind is still playing with itself, creating uncomfortable stories. They don't seem to fall away. It's like a locomotive that has lost control.

Jon

[moondog]

Hi Jon,

When I think about this 'I', it appears in the mind as a very spacious nothing, so still something. But this is just the mind's conceptualization of something that can't be conceptualized. No entity whatsoever can be found, even though it is assumed that intentions spring forth from somewhere. There is no controller here. It feels as if knowing is coming to re-find itself as blissful objectlessness.

That's a lovely way of describing it.

This objectlessness still gets a little mixed up with identification though. So for a while, this knowing may think itself to be a limited, yet somewhat awakened, body-mind. Jon still lives his life and gets involved in the story. Jon still worries about stuff too.

Yeah, no worries, this is just what happens. It takes a while for such strong habit to start to lose their energy and power so that they, often gradually, fall away.

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

Only that it still plays out and identification happens on a daily basis. Some aspects of experience burn more than others, are more believable and addictive than others. Mind is still playing with itself, creating uncomfortable stories. They don't seem to fall away. It's like a locomotive that has lost control.

As I said above, it takes a while for such old, strong habits to unwind. But each time they are seen for what they really are, they do. For each of us, it's different, and takes it's own time.

Anyway, it's very clear to me that you're ready for the final questions, so here they are. When answering question 5, please give specific and very recent examples from direct experience. Once I get your answers, I'll put them forward for other guides for any comments. Then I'll arrange for you to get access to various aftercare and other groups on Facebook and the LU site. Have you got a Facebook name? If so, either let me know here or, if you prefer, PM it to me.

Always from direct experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen?

Please give specific examples from your recent experience.

6) Anything to add?

Pete x

[Jello]

Anyway, it's very clear to me that you're ready for the final questions, so here they are. When answering question 5, please give specific and very recent examples from direct experience. Once I get your answers, I'll put them forward for other guides for any comments. Then I'll arrange for you to get access to various aftercare and other groups on Facebook and the LU site. Have you got a Facebook name? If so, either let me know here or, if you prefer, PM it to me.

Excellent! No I'm not on facebook unfortunately, not a fan. Can I do it on this site?

Always from direct experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. Not a separate entity. There is only a very alluring dream of one. There is no central point of experience, no singularity. Just openness and waves of experiencing, and constricted story feelings that feel 'real'.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It's basically just a very lucid, very dense and physical dream state.

First there are thoughts and perceptions. These appear as subtle and transparent images that seem to be made up of the same thing that is aware of them. These are visual, and auditory, i.e imagined and storylines. They label all experience, put it into it's place in the story of 'I', by projecting it outwardly and forming a belief about it. They are often extremely fast and overlooked. These thoughts and perceptions seem to be directly related to the tensions and emotional patterns in the body. The tensions and patterns are made up from the spectrum of feelings and sensations throughout what is perceived as the body. The real body is this spectrum of sensations. It is the tight sensations that give that really separate self feeling, and that feed the thoughts, making them much more believable. It is a tight and constricted feeling, the one of being separate. It is expansive when objectlessness happens and infinity is felt.

It is almost like a runaway computer program. But when awareness snaps back into knowing itself, it is seen for what it is. This almost ironically seems to have an effect on the story, improving it.

It's all very matrixy. There is just different states of consciousness arising within objectless awareness. Where these come from, why they happen, how anything appears at all is beyond me.

Imagine falling asleep with the TV on, and with a cool breeze on your feet. The dialogue from the TV and sensation of cold feet will bleed into the dream, and the dream will make up a story from what is being experienced. The felt sensation of the feet might not even be perceived as cold in the dream, or even coming from the feet. It is just a sensation and the dream interprets it how it does. Perhaps the dialogue will be dreamed as you speaking to a polar bear living in france, who knows, the psyche does what it does. This is what is happening in the waking state, only it is a different, denser, state of consciousness we are in here. Who knows where all of this is actually coming from.

In the past I have woken up from a dream, into another dream, thinking within that dream that I was awake. I only realized I was still dreaming when that dream became frightening and mysterious, and I forced myself to wake up again, perhaps into yet another dream, I can't remember. But I woke up eventually into what I think of now as a memory of 'the' waking state. I'm not sure there is just 'one' waking state but a multitude of different states that get grouped under one heading - the story of me.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Things are becoming looser. It's difficult to care about much. Things get looked into deeply. I feel more reconnected, sometimes absolutely empty, which gives rise to energy it seems. There seems to be some existential desperation happening in the mind. There is an inner letting go, and an embracing of my primacy. Nothing needs to be done..

More tomorrow hopefully

Jon

[moondog]

Thanks for your answers Jon.

They're really good.

Looking forward to the rest tomorrow.

Pete

[Jello]

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

There just seems to be some kind of gravitational pull towards 'awakening'. There is no 'me' looking, even though it feels like there is. Thoughts are quick and deceptive, but as more of them hit the light of awareness, the pull gets stronger and builds momentum.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen?

Please give specific examples from your recent experience.

I was meditating yesterday. I never plan to meditate or set an end time, but I noticed yesterday the meditation was only over when enough 'believed' thoughts come in to say it's over. We identify with the stories about the things we have to 'do' in our lives. They make a believable and engrossing game to play. Awareness it seems gets so engrossed it loses itself in the game, like a child who forgets himself whilst playing with friends.

It is becoming clearer and clearer that there never was a choice. It's almost like it is all so delicately laid out and interwined with the whole universe. It feels like there are greater 'forces' at play. Could it really be that it is all unraveling out of nowhere?! It is becoming clear that I have been fascinated with only the outer, denser vibrational realities, attaching to stories and being intoxicated by material form. As I surrender these, more subtle realities become apparent within experience. Subtler and more imaginative realms of thought, lighter and deeper bodies of feeling and sensation. As awareness drops the stories it has lured itself into, it is realized that no 'one' ever had any control whatsoever. A re-sensitization happens, inner movement is revealed in the light of awareness, outer movement is allowed to continue automatically without fear.

This apparent 'doing' creates emotional blockages and tensions throughout the body and subtle bodies. These are felt in experience as a general contracting of the nervous system and all of the symptomatic pangs of that. I feel like I can control these inner energies too, but even that is a deception that is preventing awareness from sinking deeper into itself.

The only thing that seems to cause discomfort in experience, is this apparent self that is always needing to do something to change something, rather than just fully be ok with what is, right now. Like a tape loop of the mind, self throws out the harmony into discordance where ever it appears.

6) Anything to add?

Just that your guidance has been fantastic Pete, and that I'm very grateful for you taking the time. Things are becoming clearer and clearer.

Jon

[moondog]

Hi Jon,

Many thanks for your very full and wonderfully interesting answers to the questions. I'm really pleased that you have been able to see through the illusion of a separate self so clearly

I'll now ask the guides to have a look and will let you know whether they have any queries to clarify anything, as they often do. It's a good idea to check whenever you can, to keep the flow going if necessary. It can take a day or more, or it can be quicker.

There is a group on the LU site, and you'll be invited on to that once the guides have done their thing. The FB groups are more active and comprehensive, and can be helpful and supportive for people like you that have just gated. You can even sign up to Facebook under an assumed name if you wish. But, in the end it's, clearly up to you. If you change your mind and do want to join, just let me know.

I'll get back to you soon when I hear from the other guides.

Pete x