Hi - brief awakening yesterday

[bejahu]

Can you see a you that can step in to the flow of life or remove itself from it? Is this experienced, this movement in and out of the flow or is this only possible in thoughts - a story about what is happening?

Yes, this is a story about what is happening. It's a story about my anxiety about having a tendency to take on too much and then drop everything, both useful and less useful! [Maybe, when this has happened in the past, it's only been a disaster / whatever because I've believed thoughts telling me it's a disaster / whatever... (Aha! :-) )]

bejahu wrote:
I feel I am being drawn to resume learning Welsh.

Where does this feeling come from? What is at its origin?
Is a you in control of the wants and don't wants? The doing or not doing?

This main feeling is not from a 'me' that I can find. There were a lot of other thoughts about it which were 'me' thoughts - in fact everything apart from the main impulse, I think. The other wants and don't wants weren't controlled by a 'me' though - it was like (to use another thought!) there were a bunch of 'me' thoughts throwing streamers and things to make the initial impulse more dramatic. None of the 'me' thoughts had any substance.

No, I mean do choices and decisions just happen, as the result of many factors or does a you choose and decide?

With regard to deciding what to cook for tea, it seems, on the surface, that I assess what ingredients there are, how long I've got to cook and how hungry I am and then I decide how to proceed.

What assesses what ingredients are available? A feeling of alertness assesses this. What assesses how long I have to cook? There is no 'I' attached to seeing how much time I have until a given point. What assesses how hungry I am? An alert feeling checks on the body to see how hungry I am. There is a feeling of anticipation about eating nice food, but I can't find an 'I' attached to it (LOTS of bits of thought though).

Is a you there, is this you experienced?

When I start typing again, this is just an impulse to type, the body's hands move to the keyboard and typing happens, there is no me here. While I'm looking for the 'me', I can't simultaneously think what I'm going to type about.

If there is no you how do choices and decisions happen?

I don't know, they just do.

:-)

Beverley.

[Canfora]

Maybe, when this has happened in the past, it's only been a disaster / whatever because I've believed thoughts telling me it's a disaster / whatever... (Aha! :-)

This is very nice!
When you look now, can you see the difference between story/thoughts and reality?

If there is no you how do choices and decisions happen?
I don't know, they just do.

Not knowing is a great place to be, very light, very open :)

How about control? Is a you in control of the body, the thinking, what you want to happen now or 10 minutes from now? If you look can you find a controller with the ability to control itself, others or life?
Don't forget to justify your answer with some examples, please - simple things you see happening that point to the answer.

Sandra

[bejahu]

When you look now, can you see the difference between story/thoughts and reality?

I'll be cautious and say that I feel I'm getting there! ;-)

How about control? Is a you in control of the body, the thinking, what you want to happen now or 10 minutes from now? If you look can you find a controller with the ability to control itself, others or life?

There is no 'me' in control of the body, it does its various things without help and I can't stop it doing them. Thinking just happens, thoughts move in and out of awareness. I am feeling a lot more relaxed, right now, about what I might want to happen than I was the other day; I've never had any really clear goals or plans, I just would like to find 'my place' and feel I'm doing something useful - I'm currently feeling more relaxed about this whole thing and also more genuinely open to what 'my place' might or might not be. (Sorry this isn't very specific...) There is no controller.

There is a growing ability to spot the thought (usually pretending to be a 'me') that wants to do things (eg tell distant family members to take a running jump!) and recognise it's just a thought and allow / encourage it to evaporate and then *amazingly* the urge to do things like that just evaporates too. (I keep waiting to find that this is a delusion, it seems so ridiculously easy!!!)

:-)

Beverley.

[Canfora]

When you look now, can you see the difference between story/thoughts and reality?
I'll be cautious and say that I feel I'm getting there! ;-)

Nice...
Let's do an exercise of looking to and describing something that is real :)
Describe a sock that you knitted - how do you know the sock exists?

Sandra

[bejahu]

lol

It seems to me that the sock exists because I can tug it and turn it and it stays basically the same, also my foot gets cold after I take it off. It starts out looking and feeling like a sock and, during and after my investigation, it still looks and feels like a sock.

:-)

Beverley.

[Canfora]

Thank you for answering a weirder question :)

It seems to me that the sock exists because I can tug it and turn it and it stays basically the same, also my foot gets cold after I take it off. It starts out looking and feeling like a sock and, during and after my investigation, it still looks and feels like a sock.

So the sock can be touched - tugged and turned - and warms a cold foot. The sock looks and feels like a sock, it can be seen, smelled, felt,...
The experiencing of the "sock" proves its existence.
What about "Beverley"? Can she also be experienced? Does she exist in reality?
Look for her, can you find the separate self? Can "Beverley" be experienced, like the sock?

Sandra

[bejahu]

What about "Beverley"? Can she also be experienced? Does she exist in reality?
Look for her, can you find the separate self? Can "Beverley" be experienced, like the sock?

I have not found a part of Beverley that can be experienced after I start looking to see if she's real. It can feel very real for a while, but tugging and turning at the experience makes it disintegrate and then I can see it was just a thought, like smoke or water vapour. [Now I'm thinking though that smoke and water vapour exist, even though they disappear / disintegrate quickly. I suppose that there are small bits of water, which is real, that get further apart, and small bits of stuff that makes smoke that get further apart... Are there small bits of Beverley that just get further apart? Beverley thoughts just seem to disappear without any trace that they were ever there - there is never any aftertaste / smell like smoke leaves or dampness like water vapour leaves.]

(I'm not sure if this has clarified the issue or not!!!)

:-)

Beverley.

[Canfora]

(I'm not sure if this has clarified the issue or not!!!)

I'm not sure either :)
Does the separate self exist or is only an illusion?

Sandra

[bejahu]

Does the separate self exist or is only an illusion?

Every time I've been able to look at it (had a few seconds or so time to do so), it has turned out to be an illusion. When I am calm and I try and find it, I come across nothing more solid than thoughts which easily disperse.

:-)

Beverley.

[Canfora]

Every time I've been able to look at it (had a few seconds or so time to do so), it has turned out to be an illusion.

When you aren't looking, is a self present, living life?

When I am calm and I try and find it, I come across nothing more solid than thoughts which easily disperse.

When calm disappears, is a self present, in the midst of the storm?

Sandra

[bejahu]

When you aren't looking, is a self present, living life?

There usually isn't a Beverley, unless there's something going on that triggers Beverley thoughts. There is a feeling that I'm here, a space that's kind of cool outside the body and warm inside it, but it's an 'I' that has much less need to control (or try to control) things than Beverley. If I'm totally not looking at all, like I've just woken up in the morning, I sometimes notice that I've been awake but there hasn't been anything going on (maybe this is what has always happened when I first wake up in the morning, I just haven't noticed before).

When calm disappears, is a self present, in the midst of the storm?

There is a feeling of being here (eg in this chair), and there can be calmness when there are tensions running high with other people. When Beverley thoughts arise... I can't think of the last time I was totally hogtied by Beverley thoughts (sometimes I do what the thoughts suggest I should - like get angry - but realise I'm being prompted by thoughts). There were some when I woke in the night and it took a while for me to get them to evaporate, but I recognised they were thoughts. And sometimes they come up in quick succession so I can't focus on them individually but (mostly...) I realise they're thoughts. [Currently having a lot of thoughts that I'm blowing my own trumpet a bit...! I think what I've typed is true though.]

:-)

Beverley.

[Canfora]

There are lots of "I" in your post! Can you see this I in life?
Have you been looking? Do it now - because this can only be seen now, and it's always now! :)
If there is no I here, why should there be an I in an imagined future?
Take your time. Can you experience an I?

Sandra

[bejahu]

There are lots of "I" in your post! Can you see this I in life?

I noticed that while I was writing it... I wasn't sure whether to change that. It's an 'I' referring to the feeling of being aware of being here, in this chair. There is something that is aware of being here in this chair, typing these words, I don't know what it is, but it isn't Beverley. There is a lot of uncertainty here (about family things), some of which has Beverley thoughts attached, most of which is just feelings in my stomach area. There is some other fear 'If I'm not Beverley, then who am I?' I am starting to arrange to do things outside the house, meeting new / less new people for the first time in *months*... Most of the time, it feels very relaxed not being Beverley.

Have you been looking? Do it now - because this can only be seen now, and it's always now! :)

I look a lot. I am going to look now... There are a lot of 'I' thoughts about things I should be doing instead of 'wasting time' sitting here doing this. I know they are only thoughts, but there are a lot of them at the moment.

If there is no I here, why should there be an I in an imagined future?

I don't know. I feel it might come back.

Take your time. Can you experience an I?

There are a lot of thoughts. They are 'I' thoughts and they are spinning around but they don't seem to be attached to an 'I'. None of the thoughts is about what is happening now. They are mostly about things I ought to get done, things that are happening in the next few days / week, how I'm letting people down / will let people down. Just writing them down like this has helped me feel how silly they are. If I am letting people down, I really don't see how (unless it's by not being able to do magic and make everything perfect for them). There are quite a lot of things going to happen in the near future, but nothing I can't easily cope with when I get to them (obviously, I can't cope with things that are going to happen on Wednesday while it's Monday afternoon) [sigh]. As for getting things done, "things" are getting done!

Feeling a lot looser! I need to write things down more often when I get a lot of thoughts like this.

I do feel a little like this (above) was kind of a psychological exercise to make Beverley feel better... Where is this Beverley? I can't find a Beverley. There is a LOT of narrative / commentary at the moment! (You've probably noticed...)

I just sat and listened quietly to the birds, etc, for a bit (awareness listened ;-) ). The narrative has calmed down! Phew.

Narrative virtually gone now... :-)

Beverley.

[Canfora]

Seeing "no self" is simply seeing that here and now a self can't be found. Even with the narrative, the chatter of the "I" thoughts. That is also just happening, like everything - this includes perfectionist tendencies! :)
It's a seeing of This as This Is It. There is nothing more than This, than Life, than experiencing. No "I" anywhere to be found.

When you say that you look and see no self is this an experience or an intellectual understanding?
What changed since we started talking, if anything?
What should be different, what are you expecting to happen?

Sandra

[bejahu]

Seeing "no self" is simply seeing that here and now a self can't be found.

I am open to there being a self, but, when I look, there isn't one.

this includes perfectionist tendencies! :)

(blush)

When you say that you look and see no self is this an experience or an intellectual understanding?

I've been looking at this a lot overnight and it really seems to be an experience. It's not like 'OK, I've got my head round that', it's a feeling in the body (and there's no sign of a 'me' when I look).

What changed since we started talking, if anything?

There are noticeable gaps where there is no thinking / only very gentle thinking. I am able to give people more space more often (the feeling that 'this is what s/he needs to do, just let them get on with it' comes up a lot). (I find it harder to understand how my husband is completely unable to grasp any idea that there might be no self... although that's perfectly fine in itself...) It's also easier (especially if I write them down) to see through the silliness of thoughts.

What should be different, what are you expecting to happen?

There is an occasional feeling that comes up that there should be a big sign or flashing lights (or something) to tell me that this is real! :-D

:-)

Beverley.