Skeptical but Open

[fuzz1961]

They say the role of the teacher is not to answer the questions but instead to question the answers. Thanks for the teaching.

[besupax]

Hi Pete,

My personality/ego/separate self created the coping strategies (thoughts) necessary to hide my vulnerabilities and still meet as many of my basic and intrinsic needs as well as my wants, as possible.

From your present perspective, was there ever a separate self that was able to create anything? Is there anything now that has intrinsic needs and wants?.

besupax wrote:
In regard to question 5 please provide more details from your current experience. E.g. what happens between being hungry, having 3 food options, and finally cook or buy one of them? Is there a chooser there? Also, what goes on when you are falling asleep? Is there at any time a `me` needed or involved in deciding/controlling?

In the 2 days since this experienced occurred there have been many experiences. None of them have been anything different than the days prior. What has changed is the perspective from which I see them. The squirrel is still the squirrel but yet now I see it as an expression of life. In the same vein, my reactions to seeing the squirrel are also an expression of life. These 2 days have been amazing. Seeing from this perspective (I can almost hear your question already, what is seeing...this expression of life is seeing) is like seeing through new eyes.

Please look at the question again. I do need you to answer the questions in detail from your current experience. Let me know if the question is not clear to you.

Warmly,
Susan

[fuzz1961]

May I inquire as to the intention of continuing? If the effort is for my benefit, we can stop. If it is for your benefit, I will be glad to continue as it would be nice to share my gratitude for this gift. If it is to satisfy others, then there is no need to continue as the point was for me to cross over a threshold. Perhaps the threshold I crossed is of a different perspective of others but it is sufficient for me (the life expression of me). It has truly helped me see and be from a new place. It is a new stepping stone for continued growth.

Thanks again.

[besupax]

Hi Pete,

I am sorry for the confusion. Remember that I told you in an earlier post that I will forward your answers to the 5 final questions to other guides to see if they have any more questions for you. The questions I posted last came up from other guides. We all just want to make sure that you are all the way through and didn`t get halfway stuck. Once there will be no more questions on the final 5, you will receive an invitation to join our FB groups for support and exchange. Should you wish to guide on the LU forum, you could also do that - once the confirmation is done.

Does that make sense?

Warmly,
Susan

[fuzz1961]

Greetings -

From your present perspective, was there ever a separate self that was able to create anything? Is there anything now that has intrinsic needs and wants?.

No, there has never been a separate self able to create anything. Life creates. Even intrinsic needs and wants are life expressions.

In regard to question 5 please provide more details from your current experience. E.g. what happens between being hungry, having 3 food options, and finally cook or buy one of them? Is there a chooser there? Also, what goes on when you are falling asleep? Is there at any time a `me` needed or involved in deciding/controlling?

The options are there as a result of life happening, choosing happens as a result of life happening. There is no chooser nor is there a need for a chooser. Nothing and everything goes on when falling asleep. There is no true me, there has never been a true me, and there never will be. What there is is an expression of life that has a label of me.

Here are your final questions:

1. Is there a separate entity "self", "me", "I" at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2. Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3. How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4. What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5. Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your
current experience.

6. Anything to add?

Does the review team what any further clarification of these questions?

Blessings,
Pete

[besupax]

Hi Pete,

you are doing great! Almost done...

the point was for me to cross over a threshold. Perhaps the threshold I crossed is of a different perspective of others but it is sufficient for me (the life expression of me). It has truly helped me see and be from a new place. It is a new stepping stone for continued growth.

Now, please find the person who crossed the threshold. Also, could you please describe the threshold? Can the threshold be found in direct experience? What is the continued growth you are talking about here?

There is a Zen saying that the birds have no desire to be reflected in the lake, the lake has no desire to reflect the birds, but it still happens. The birds are reflected, the lake reflects, although the desire exists neither on the part of the birds nor on the part of the lake.

Warmly,
Susan

[fuzz1961]

Greetings -

Now, please find the person who crossed the threshold.

My word, this is getting old. When is it ok to use the word me without having to change the terminology to 'expression of life'?

Also, could you please describe the threshold?

Threshold is the terminology used by Liberation Unleashed. For me, please save the who is the person question again, was the realization that both internal and external formations were expressions of life. Additionally, beliefs, ideologies, personalities, ego's, etc were also expressions of life. Even the thoughts that are recognizing that the thoughts are expression of life are being recognized as expressions of life.

Can the threshold be found in direct experience?

I (the expression of life with a label) does not understand the point of the query. What is there to experience anything directly? What is experience? Is experience something that exists outside Life?

What is the continued growth you are talking about here?

This observation (see my last answer) (observation - another expression of life) is in of itself a opportunity for further introspection (continued growth). Believing that gaining insight into the concept of no-self is the end of the search for truth is a self-imposed (expression of life) limitation of capabilities. Life itself constantly reveals itself to be limitless and as expressions of life we have the same potential.

Good night,

Pete

[besupax]

Dear Pete,

from the way you expressed gratitude I understand that you are satisfied with the result of this process. Great!

However, I also sense that you are frustrated with the ongoing inquiry. There is nothing to lose here. Once seen through the illusion it is not possible to forget. Am I right?

Can you tolerate a little more discomfort and stick with me? Let's make 100% sure that you are all the way through and didn't get stuck in a concept of no-self.

There has been a major shift. That is very very obvious. Sometimes it is hard to communicate the "new experience" of not being seperate.

However, seeing no self is not the same as *agreeing* there is no self. We aren't looking for agreement or a new strongly-held belief. What we are looking for is acknowledgement of how Life Happens when there is simply no self at all.

That is why I'd like a direct answer from your direct experience to the following question (without conceptualizing please):

Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

Warmly,
Susan

ps: to find the words for "no self" here in the forum might be also helpful for communicating it to friends and family shoud you want to

[fuzz1961]

Good Afternoon -

This message seems riddled with contradictory messages. Whatever I am is confused and frustrated over the contradictions. For example:

Once seen through the illusion it is not possible to forget. Am I right?

What is an I?

Can you tolerate a little more discomfort and stick with me?

More 'you' and 'me'. It seems 'you' can use the term but 'I' cannot.

Sometimes it is hard to communicate the "new experience" of not being seperate.

Using the terms I, me, my, etc.. carry a different perspective but apparently only others are allowed to use the term to communicate.

Let's make 100% sure that you are all the way through and didn't get stuck in a concept of no-self.

Seeing there is no-self was the gate. Passing through the gate was the understanding and seeing and bringing that understanding/perspective and integrating it back into daily life. This is not a concept, it is.

What we are looking for is acknowledgement of how Life Happens when there is simply no self at all.

This contradicts the statement above regarding being stuck in the concept of no-self. That said, nothing differently happens. Life is as it always is.

That is why I'd like a direct answer from your direct experience to the following question (without conceptualizing please):

Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control?

There is no intention, decision, free will, choice, or control. The best example to share is the 5 minute no I exercise.
Typing
Feeling
Thinking
Typing
etc..
That is 'my' direct experience. Same stuff as always but perceived differently.

[besupax]

Dear Pete,

the direct pointing process causes a shift in perception and not a shift in personality. There has clearly been a shift in perception on your side.

What is puzzling here is the defensiveness that is behind most of your answers. Is that a character trait? Is there something you need to protect?
As I have explained before it is not the use of language that needs to be handled differently. It is the looking that needs to be done. If I point back to your answer that only means that there is more looking needed there. I want a clear answer from your direct experience (right now and not from 2 weeks ago).

There is no intention, decision, free will, choice, or control.

Yes! Absolutely!!!

But - imagine I was your best friend or your teenage daughter. How would you `prove` to me from your experience, so that I, who has never before heard anything like that, that this is true? I, as your best friend won`t just take for granted a statement `there is no intention...`. I want to know, how do you know?

You could have copied the statement above, that`s why I am looking for your words to describe your experience. And I know it is hard to describe a `no` something. So please give it your best shot.

On this forum, your words are the only way to make it evident that you have seen. For you, your experience is all you need. And I can`t and won`t take that away from you. So, nothing to lose.

Would you feel more comfortable if another guide does the last bit of the final question(s) with you?

Warmly,
Susan

[fuzz1961]

I want a clear answer from your direct experience (right now and not from 2 weeks ago).

Does life want or do you want? None of the responses are from two weeks ago.

fuzz1961 wrote:There is no intention, decision, free will, choice, or control.

Yes! Absolutely!!!

But - imagine I was your best friend or your teenage daughter. How would you `prove` to me from your experience, so that I, who has never before heard anything like that, that this is true? I, as your best friend won`t just take for granted a statement `there is no intention...`. I want to know, how do you know?

The truth is the truth and requires no 'proving'. If that is what Liberation Unleashed is looking for then the purpose of the organization is flawed and I want no part of it. Knowing is knowing and requires no proof to anyone or anything. How can you prove life is life? If you know, Prove it. To my knowledge the human race has been trying to do just that for thousands of years and has yet to succeed.

You could have copied the statement above, that`s why I am looking for your words to describe your experience. And I know it is hard to describe a `no` something. So please give it your best shot.

Thanks for the trust...nothing I wrote was copied or rewritten from another source. I wrote as the directions requested, open and honest.

Would you feel more comfortable if another guide does the last bit of the final question(s) with you?

I wish this exercise had not turned out this way but it is life being itself just as my wishing it wasn't so is also life just being. Similarly any character traits are all just life expressions. Neither good or bad, they just are. As for finding another guide, what do you think would be the benefit? Based on this experience it would be difficult for me to use this process to help others so why should I go on? As you said my experience is all I need and I have that. For reasons that only life can comprehend I cannot communicate it you in a manner that is satisfactory. I'm ok with that.

I look forward to your reply,

Pete

[besupax]

Hi Pete,

this thread has turned into a discussion rather than dialog, using the direct pointing method.

An overwhelming number of guides all say that there is definitely more work to be done. None of those guides have a vested interest in you either SEEing or not SEEing. They all come from a place of compassion and want the best for you.

Unless you are interested to continue looking, with the help of direct pointing, I have to end that thread here.

Let me know.

Warmly,
Susan

[fuzz1961]

Good evening -

You are correct, this thread has turned into a discussion rather than a dialog. I apologize for that. If there is another guide that is willing to work with me I'd like to continue looking.

Thank-you,

Pete

[besupax]

Hi Pete,

that`s good news! I`ll find you a new guide.

All the best,
Susan

[vinceschubert]

G'day Pete, vince here.
Gee, things were going great up to a certain point, then something happened. Reading your thread there was a mood change when you got pissed off about the use of I/me/expression of life.
i'm not worried about the language as there aren't words to adequately portray some of what we are talking about.
Please tell me how life-ing is for Pete yesterday and today ?
Also tell where and what you think went wrong (if anything) ?

vince