I Need an Experienced Guide

[NoOneHome]

Hi Ilona,

Great! Now look at what is looking.

When I look at what is looking, I don’t see anything.

What is that seeing is happening to?

It is not happening to anything.

What happens when you ask these questions?

It reduces the degree to which I identify with the “me” that my thoughts refer to.

Brent

[Ilona]

:) ok, let's try a different question, what is the I that is looking and does not see anything?
Sit with closed eyes for 10 min and look for the I. What do thoughts come to? What do sensations happen to? What is behind sensations?
Write more, not just a sentence.

Sending love.

[NoOneHome]

I can't determine from direct experience what is looking. I can only speculate that
the brain must be what is looking.  It is what controls the body.  But the brain is not a self.  It is just responding to conditions that exist. 

It is raining.  The sound of the rain is appearing, but not to anyone that I can find. The same is true of the sounds coming from the kitchen. 

Thoughts also appear but not to anyone.  I keep having thoughts about myself.  It is confusing because when I look I can't see a self, but there is still a belief it is there. 

There is nothing behind the sensations.  They are happening but are not attached to anything. 

[Ilona]

Excellent, you are staring at it.
Here is bahyia sutra, look at all through this lens, spend time with it, see what it means in experience

In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
betwixt the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.

The question "what is looking " is not meant to be answered. What is the experience that arises when this question is asked?

Sending love.

[NoOneHome]

Here is bahyia sutra, look at all through this lens, spend time with it, see what it means in experience

So I reviewed the bahyia sutra a bunch of times and looked at experience through that lens some for a couple of days. It didn’t really do anything for me.

On the other hand, yesterday I spent some time looking closely at the “I” that kept coming up, and that seemed to help. I focused primarily on how it was just a thought. Of course, I’ve given that a lot of attention in the past, but yesterday it really seemed to be hitting home. I also looked at how the “I” often shows up as a label, pretty much always after an experience, sensation, or thought of some type. The other thing I noticed yesterday was that strong feelings of anxiety, anger, or whatever, could arise and just pass through without having to be attached to a me concept.

For some reason, I was able to see through the illusion yesterday, like I saw that the self was a thought, and it didn’t go away, but it was clearly fake. Like seeing that the Santa Clause at the mall has a cheap suit and a fake beard, although he is clearly still there, sitting on his chair.

The question "what is looking " is not meant to be answered. What is the experience that arises when this question is asked?

Right now there is just a big open space that arises when I contemplate this question. The clear seeing that started yesterday has persisted through today. I’m skeptical that it will continue, because too many times in the past I’ve been in a similar situation. But it is nice to finally feel like I’m making a little progress. I was getting pretty discouraged.

Assuming the illusion will reassert itself with force, I plan to try to focus my attention on looking again at how the I is a thought as described above. Hopefully with some repetition I can train myself to see through the illusion consistently.

[Ilona]

Great! Yes, you are looking at the right direction. The open space, keep looking at it, resting in it.. Good stuff.

Have a look, what is that is making progress? Is there I to make progress? Where does this I come from? Is there I in the empty space?

Don't make any assumptions how it should be, just see what is as it is. What does this illusion stick to? How does it affect what is happening? Just watch, without trying. And write what you see.

Sending love.

[NoOneHome]

Ilona,

Things are still looking relatively clear, but I've been crazy busy this week and haven't had much time to write you. I hope to have some time tomorrow.

Brent

[Ilona]

Looking forward to read your report!
Have a lovely day!

[NoOneHome]

Hi Ilona,

The open space, keep looking at it, resting in it.

I have been.

Have a look, what is that is making progress?

There is no one here to make progress now.

Is there I to make progress?

The “I” is clearly just a thought or label.

Where does this I come from?

It comes from wherever thoughts come from.

Is there I in the empty space?

No.

What does this illusion stick to?

There doesn’t seem to be anything for it to stick to now.

How does it affect what is happening?

The illusion doesn’t affect what is happening.

Just watch, without trying. And write what you see.

The last few days I’ve been going through life without feeling like there is a me there. It has been weird. I’ve had fewer thoughts about the “me” but still many. I haven’t been getting invested in the thoughts about myself. Things still happen that are bothersome, but they haven’t led to lasting emotions or thought patterns. I’ve still felt anxiety about some issues, but it has been less intense and more brief. It is like the energy that feeds personalization of life events has been running very low.

If I don't really pay close attention to the situation, then things just sort of hum along. If I look closely at the lack of a self in my current experience, then I feel very present and tuned into everything around me.

I’ve been waiting for this clarity to leave, but it has been quite constant since Sunday evening when it showed up.

Brent

[Ilona]

Awesome! Looks like the line has been crossed! Woo hoo!
Can you say, you are ready for he final questions? If not, is there anything else that is wanting to be examined first?

Much love

[NoOneHome]

Ilona,

I am ready for the final questions.

Thanks,

Brent

[Ilona]

Sweet! Here they are :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.

[NoOneHome]

Hi Ilona,

I will post some answers later today. In the meantime, I need some technical advice. Lately when I have tried to send private messages they often get stuck in my Outbox. There is one stuck there right now that I tried to send yesterday. I'm not sure how to fix that, or who to ask about it. And since my PMs aren't working properly, I felt that posting you was the most efficient way to ask for help.

Thanks!

Brent

[Ilona]

Hi Brett, the messages,are in outbox, till they are read by receiver. It's working.

Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk

[NoOneHome]

Hi Ilona,

Thanks for clearing up my confusion about the Outbox.

Here are my answers to the final questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is nothing like that here, and there never was. It was a daydream that lasted many years.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion is the belief that the body is an entity or contains an entity, and this entity makes decisions, implements the decisions via actions, and perceives things. The illusion is manifested in many ways, but perhaps the most important is the belief that thoughts about the “I” or the “me” are true statements about the entity.

The person’s life revolves around protecting the false entity, maximizing its pleasure, and minimizing its pain. Since the entity is false, the time that is spent to achieve these goals is wasted to some degree. Habits and skills that are unnecessary are developed, objects are aquired, experiences are sought, etc., and much of it is to satisfy an illusion. You can’t satisfy an illusion, which is why lasting satisfaction is never achieved while the illusion is believed.

I think the illusion of separate self begins in early childhood when older people impose the concept of separation on a developing child. Parents, teachers, and others tell the child that the child is separate from the other people. The child is instructed to think of their body as separate from other people’s bodies and other objects. They are told to take responsibility for their actions, not hurt others, respect others’ wishes, and leave others’ stuff alone.

It would be interesting to see what happens to someone who is raised in a manner that avoids this. I don’t know if it is possible, and it may cause problems, because believing in a separate self may be necessary for dealing with the practical issues of the world until a certain level of maturity is achieved.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Illusion really is the best description of the sense of a separate self, because it really feels like an illusion has been seen through. It is like “what was I thinking? There is obviously no entity here.” It is like that story where some guy in a poorly lit room sees a snake and freaks out and then turns on the light and realizes it is just a stick lying there. You think back to when you thought it was a snake, and it seemed so real. But now you look at the stick and can’t feel scared of it.

I see that the thoughts about “I” and “me” are just thoughts, and don’t refer to anything real. They are still happening quite a bit, but I just don’t believe them any more. I’m still experiencing irritation, frustration, and anxiety at times, but they don’t feel like they belong to anyone. In some ways, the anxiety about some work issues has been stronger than normal the last couple of days, and I have still invested more time than I would like trying to address it. It may be that some of my mental habits are fighting for their life as I get used to this new understanding that the anxiety and other feelings don’t actually belong to anyone.

Despite the presence of some strong feelings, I haven’t been bothered much by things that I used to take personally. A lot of things have been bouncing off me instead of sticking.

After a few days of seeing that this clarity was pretty solid, I thought maybe I should wait longer before asking for the final questions, just to be sure. But I couldn’t see the point in waiting any more, because I couldn’t picture going back to believing in an entity.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was on Sunday when I was looking closely at the sense of “I” that was there. I was frustrated that I hadn’t been making progress on this investigation. So I really focused on how each time the “I” asserted itself, it was just a thought. There was no actual connection between the “I” thought and the experience of the world. Seeing that the “I” is just a thought was not something new, but this time it just broke through a wall.

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience

Intention is just a thought. Like any other thought, it is unclear where it comes from or goes, and there is no control over it.

Decisions are made, but not by some entity. They happen automatically.

Free will is a logical impossibility (as I’ve discussed in earlier posts), but more importantly, it is irrelevant because it is only meaningful if there is an entity that can make decisions.

A choice is just a decision or action based on a decision, and is thus something that happens automatically and not by an entity.

Control is another illusion. It requires an entity and free will, but there is neither.

I don’t know for sure what makes things happen, but as I discussed in an earlier post, I suspect that it may just be a physical process unfolding in a probabilistic manner based on the rules of physics and the current set of conditions. But that is speculation. It is unclear to what degree reality is even decoupled from the mind, perception, and consciousness.

I certainly don’t make anything happen, because there is no I. Given that, I can’t be responsible for anything.

Examples, hmm…

There is a water bottle sitting on the desk. It has some water in it. I picked it up and drank it. Why? Because you wanted an example and so I had to make a decision of some sort, and I had previously planned to finish the water. The conditions were right, so the drinking happened.

Earlier I yelled at the dog to quit bugging me. Was I responsible for that? He was the one who was bugging me. I was already in a bad mood because I spent too much time on a Saturday stressing about a work issue. The work issue is due to complications at work that I didn’t create. My inability to deal better with the stress is due to genetics, my upbringing, and all the experiences I have had. Everything can be traced back to conditions over which I have no control (both because "I" don't exist and because even if "I" did, control is not possible without free will). That is true in every situation and isn’t even limited to the case of there being no entity here. The lack of an entity just makes it doubly impossible for there to be control or responsibility. (I know that the assertion that there can't be responsibility will bother on moral grounds some people who haven't seen through the illusion of a separate self and who believe in free will, but it is an unavoidable fact of life.)

6) Anything to add?

I would like to thank you, Ilona, for all the time and effort you have put into my investigation and Liberation Unleashed. You have been awesome. LU is an incredible resource. I would also like to thank everyone else who contributes to this community, and anyone who has been following this thread and pulling for me.

I also have a very special thank you for DianaM, who was my first guide. Diana really got me far down this path and has continued to be very supportive of my efforts. I highly recommend Diana to anyone who is looking for a dedicated and caring guide.

Sincerely,

Brent