Looking for a way out...

[Nasarat]

Hi Fred

Tell me, in your own words and your own time: what would ‘obtaining, experiencing freedom’ be like? And what would ‘feeling at home’ be like? Remember we are not interested in teaching material here, nor what you feel I want to hear. Just a description, as plain as it comes.

I want to get rid of all conditioning, we bounded from the very birthday. I mean everything from our responsibilities to the concepts as our names for example. Even life itself, because nobody asked us to be born. We just put to the earth-life, given bodies,names,race,parents etc., and must survive. I see no free will here absolutely. We are just pawns in somebody's game. Our life is complete farce and lies and we know nothing. We are fully limited by our perceptions. We don't even know, what the tree is besides our perceptions tell us.
Our knowledge about ourselfs again is a lie. We think we know, who we are, though we don't, except thoughts-concepts, we believe is real.
Altruism is complete bs. The ego absolutely can't be altruistic, no it can love unconditionally, there is always egoistical thought driving our motivations. Like sunglasses hindering vision.
I see, that everything ego touches becoming a lie. I want to be free of all lies.
I found out, that the core problem of lies and suffering lyes in our misperception about our little, scary ''self''.
So,here we go...)

What would ‘feeling at home’ be like

I think of going to be at peace with myself.
I wish, that feeling ''not at home'' gone.
Tired of it

I would like you to have a look at the following list, which is from the FAQ section of our site. It deals with expectations. Contemplate each of these one by one, Nasarat, let them work their way through, observe any reaction, and let me know what comes up. Maybe sensations in the body? Fears? Desires? Maybe some release? Maybe nothing for some of them?

Read through it...
When I first time read it, it felt a little bit disappointing. After a while I get used to the thought: it's not going to be, as me is expecting. Though, expectations still here. I think it's natural to have a hope for better.
Yet, it feels I don't want any expectations. I'm fed up with everybody saying me it's not what you want or think ), so I'm just staying open to any possibility.

Cheers
Nasarat

[Freddi]

Hi Nasarat

Thanks for your detailed, if a little ranting response.

I want to get rid of all conditioning. I mean everything from our responsibilities to the concepts as our names for example. Even life itself, because nobody asked us to be born.

Who or what is wanting to get rid of conditioning? Can you look at your present experience and tell me what you see?
What is wrong with conditioning? Who or what is labelling it as ‘bad’?
Getting rid of conditioning/concepts is not what is on offer here, any more than getting rid of dark clouds, headaches or spiders. Life will continue to do what it does, with its highs and lows, hot and cold, left and right, good times and bad times. And there is no ‘you’ that can stand apart from it and select just the good bits. Is it OK if life continues just the same?

We are just pawns in somebody's game.

And whose game would that be?

I think of going to be at peace with myself. I wish, that feeling ''not at home'' gone. Tired of it

You say that ‘feeling at home’ is being at peace with yourself. Could you be more specific? Are you at war with yourself, right now? Look deeply into this question, stay with it for a while, and tell me what you find.
What is feeling 'not at home' like?
For this I am going to ask you to look at your present, most immediate experience. Look at what is happening right in this moment. What is ‘not feeling at home’? Is it a sensation in the body? A knot in the stomach maybe? A tightness in the chest? Describe it as clearly and simply as you can. Like a little child who has no idea what it is and tries to describe symptoms.

I'm just staying open to any possibility.

Good, that’s the spirit :-)

Warm wishes,

Fred

[Nasarat]

Hi Fred
Sorry for a little ranting answer, it's gone unedited after I pressed 'submit' button accidentally)
I see some of your questions as same, so I'll answer all at once, if it's not same, please tell.

Who or what is wanting to get rid of conditioning?
Who or what is labelling it as ‘bad’?
And whose game would that be?

I'd like to answer it's me. And who and where that me? Hmm, would you question, if there is separate entity in the body I easy see no no, however, if asked about separate 'I' 'my' mind gets stuck. Don't know why. It seems, that 'my' mind reacts differently to the 'I' vs 'entity'.
When I'm looking for separate entity it still feels, there is 'I'(doer) looking for an entity. And when looking for the 'I' mind shuts up or resistance arises.
I did a quick research on that and found out, from one awakened woman, that it still feels as 'me-doer', because there is no separation between awareness and the 'doer'- feeling and that left me wondering, do 'my' mind tricking himself?! I mean, when looking for entity, what is really happening is that 'my' mind trying to get rid of that doer-feeling, to separate from it, as if he is separate entity himself...Have you experienced that?....I hardly can put it in words. Hope you understand something

Can you look at your present experience and tell me what you see?

I see monitor, table, tv, wall, mirror, window, trees, it's sunny, door, chair, cap, bed, books, knife, cd-recorder, legs,arms, lump in from me.

What is wrong with conditioning?

I find hard to asnwer this question. It just feells wrong.

Getting rid of conditioning/concepts is not what is on offer here, any more than getting rid of dark clouds, headaches or spiders. Life will continue to do what it does, with its highs and lows, hot and cold, left and right, good times and bad times. And there is no ‘you’ that can stand apart from it and select just the good bits. Is it OK if life continues just the same?

Ok, I see,the problem here not life itself, but believe in the separate 'self- doer'

You say that ‘feeling at home’ is being at peace with yourself. Could you be more specific? Are you at war with yourself, right now? Look deeply into this question, stay with it for a while, and tell me what you find.
What is feeling 'not at home' like?

I would like to ask you: Have you experienced feeling 'been not at home' or 'missing home', that you don't belong to where you are ?
It's not, that I'm at war with myself... Hmmm..it just a feeling of missing something. That's all I can say about it.

For this I am going to ask you to look at your present, most immediate experience. Look at what is happening right in this moment. What is ‘not feeling at home’? Is it a sensation in the body? A knot in the stomach maybe? A tightness in the chest? Describe it as clearly and simply as you can. Like a little child who has no idea what it is and tries to describe symptoms.

Like it, let's get technical. So, right now i don't feel, that 'missing home' feeling. Really. It comes, when it comes and goes on it's own accord. Anyway, remember that it's like tension in the chest and throat like some unpleasant emptiness inside with thoughts popping in 'I want to go home'.

Cheers
Nasarat

[Freddi]

Hi Nasarat,

if asked about separate 'I' 'my' mind gets stuck. And when looking for the 'I' mind shuts up or resistance arises

That’s normal. The mind cannot deliver the answer to this. Ask that question again, ‘who is this ‘I’ that wants to get rid of conditioning’? And let the feeling of resistance stay around for a while. Sit still with it. What if it was your key, your door? Don’t avoid it, invite it and welcome it. Let it speak to you. Is it trying to protect something? Maybe there is a fear behind it? Have a good look and see what you find, not with your mind, but with your heart. What is that feeling of resistance telling you? Be as honest as you like.

I did a quick research on that and found out, from one awakened woman, that it still feels as 'me-doer', because there is no separation between awareness and the 'doer'- feeling

Please do not concern yourself with whatever someone else, teacher or guru or book or whatever, has to say. Don’t trust what I say either, always check for yourself. Question every assumption that you come across. You are your own authority, the only one.
Can you put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation? Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

What is wrong with conditioning?
I find hard to answer this question. It just feels wrong.

Can you spend some more time with this? ‘Wrong’ is a label, not a feeling. What we aim for here, is to clearly see the difference between what is happening, in your moment to moment experience (the seeing, the hearing, the smelling, the tasting, the feeling and the thinking), and what is not happening, the labels, the stories, the content of thoughts. If you say ‘it just feels wrong’, that is not real. We need something tangible, something identifiable as experience. Look deeply into this question: what is experienced before the label 'wrong' is applied?
Imagine you are outside, and you see a big structure, brown and green, wiggling and whistling in the wind, that is direct experience. Then the label ‘tree’ comes up, but the sound T-R-E-E or the squiggles (letters) on the screen bear no resemblance at all with the experiencing of it. Are you with me?
You can do this as often as you like, even for a few seconds, get out of the mind stream and come back to your breathing, your tactile sensations. While out in nature, for example, observe, smell, touch, feel, listen. See how the labelling machine quickly claims the experience as its own, does the judging (good or bad), the selecting, etc.

Warm wishes,

Fred

[Nasarat]

Hi Fred
This is trully deep questions, especialy first one, so I'll answer them one at a time.
Sorry no citating from mobile.
1. The mind gets still for a few seconds after questioning. I know, that stillness is the answer, though it seems the mind cannot accept it and gets irritated....Im trying to look at irritation it dissipates...Get stuck here, what next?
Not much free time today.

Cheers
Nasarat

[Freddi]

Hi Nasarat,

Get stuck here, what next?

No ‘next’. Just this question. Do spend some time with it. If you do not have much free time today, come back to it when you do.
I’ll ask the question again. It is important to stay with this, especially if there is resistance, and not to move on to ‘what’s next’.

So the first question again was: ‘who is this ‘I’ that wants to get rid of conditioning’? Sit still, ask that question, let the feeling of resistance stay around for a while or let the mind get irritated, it does not have the answer.
Don’t fight it, invite it and welcome it. Let it speak to you. Is it trying to protect something? Can you see a fear behind it? Have a good look and see what you find, not with your mind, but with your heart. What is that feeling of resistance telling you? Be as honest as you like.

Warm wishes,

Fred

[Nasarat]

Had 40 min free time.
Did it again. What I see now is that resistance and irritation stoped arising at all. I ask question, mind keeps getting still for a little, then thoughts popping up. I don't see any fear, no it protecting something. After a while I fall asleep. What am I doing wrong?

Cheers
Nasarat

[Freddi]

No one is doing anything wrong, ever.

So what is the answer to the question? Do you see an 'I', a separate entity that wants to be rid of conditioning?

Fred

[Nasarat]

Definitely there is no entity, well, that I still here, I mean me). It's just a feeling isn't, how to get rid of it? Arghh...again,who want to get rid of it?
That's frustrating
Watching frustation and it's dissipates...this is realy viscious circle
Stuck

[Nasarat]

Fred, using word "separate" is somehow crucial? Why not just "entity" or "I" without "separate"?

[Freddi]

Hi Nasarat,

OK one new little rule, just for you. Don’t shoot from the hip. When you read my post and questions, note them down, and take some time off to let them permeate. Stay with them. Don’t type an answer straight away, that would almost certainly be a mind answer. And no more than one (at the most two) post per day.

1)

Definitely there is no entity, well, that I still here, I mean me). It's just a feeling isn't, how to get rid of it?

So you see nothing there, at the end of that question. It’s just a feeling. Good seeing. But why this need to get rid of it? Who could get rid of it? Can you get rid of clouds, rain or a knot in the stomach? Is it OK for this feeling just to be there, acknowledged as ‘just a feeling’?

2)

Stuck

So, you’re stuck. Is that true? Question that thought. Look carefully. Can you get up from your chair, walk around? Can you go outside and look at the sky, the buildings? Can you hear the birds or the children play? Then where or how are you stuck? In your thinking? Is that real or unreal?

One exercise for you today (apart from the two questions above):
A notebook will be useful.

a. Sit and close your eyes. Now, taking your time, where does ‘Nasarat’ seem to reside, here and now? What size, location, shape and qualities does ‘Nasarat’ have? When you have considered all this carefully, make notes. Then let me know what comes up.

b. Eyes open now. Look out from those eyes at the computer screen, or at something else. Where is 'you', where is the 'looking' and where is the 'thing looked at'? Where are the distinctions between these? Are they clear? Have a good look and let me know what you find.

Remember to keep your responses in your first-hand experience in the present. No jargon or teaching material here. Take your time, give me just what comes up, with 100% honesty.

Warm wishes,

Fred

[Nasarat]

Hi Fred

OK one new little rule, just for you. Don’t shoot from the hip. When you read my post and questions, note them down, and take some time off to let them permeate. Stay with them. Don’t type an answer straight away, that would almost certainly be a mind answer. And no more than one (at the most two) post per day.

It's not shoot from the hip, Fred. I did it few times and saw it's not going to change, while I'm stuck. So, that was my report to you...I'm not arguing, so why wait till the next day to report same?

So you see nothing there, at the end of that question. It’s just a feeling. Good seeing. But why this need to get rid of it? Who could get rid of it? Can you get rid of clouds, rain or a knot in the stomach? Is it OK for this feeling just to be there, acknowledged as ‘just a feeling’?

Looking at this feeling. Yes, it's just a dim feeling. But must say, I'm still here looking at this feeling.
All the same isn't it: who is looking...etc?

So, you’re stuck. Is that true? Question that thought. Look carefully. Can you get up from your chair, walk around? Can you go outside and look at the sky, the buildings? Can you hear the birds or the children play? Then where or how are you stuck? In your thinking? Is that real or unreal?

It feels, as if I can do everything you've mentioned.

a. Sit and close your eyes. Now, taking your time, where does ‘Nasarat’ seem to reside, here and now? What size, location, shape and qualities does ‘Nasarat’ have? When you have considered all this carefully, make notes. Then let me know what comes up.

I feel, I'm in the head. Looking through eyes. It feels very strong. I feel, as if, I'm the body, though somehow not 100% clear. Like I'm not the body at the same time. I know it strange, but that's how I feel.

b. Eyes open now. Look out from those eyes at the computer screen, or at something else. Where is 'you', where is the 'looking' and where is the 'thing looked at'? Where are the distinctions between these? Are they clear? Have a good look and let me know what you find.

I'm in the head and computer is in front of me...where are the distinctions? ...Hmm...I Can't answer that. Can you please elaborate or explain this, please?

Fred, can you answer this, please: The word "separate" is somehow crucial? Why not just "entity" or "I" without "separate"? I see it, as significant, if not strategic point to understand. Thank you

Cheers
Nasarat

[Freddi]

Hi Nasarat

The word "separate" is somehow crucial? Why not just "entity" or "I" without "separate"? I see it, as significant, if not strategic point to understand

This is not about understanding, and you can’t think your way to liberation.
Is it crucial to you, whether we use the word ‘separate’ together with ‘I’, ‘entity’, or not?

1)

It's not shoot from the hip, Fred. I did it few times and saw it's not going to change, while I'm stuck. So, that was my report to you...I'm not arguing, so why wait till the next day to report same?

Sensing some resistance here. What I am saying is that if you answer too quickly, the question may not have time to do its work. If you stay still with the question, you allow your immediate and intimate experience to come through. And if you ‘feel’ stuck, all the more reason to stay with it for a while. Are you with me? Can you agree to that?

2)

I feel, I'm in the head. Looking through eyes. It feels very strong.

What does that ‘feeling’ translate into in your most intimate and immediate experience? ‘I’m in the head’ is a label, an interpretation of something experienced, through your senses. Can you look into that and be more specific?

3)

I'm in the head and computer is in front of me...where are the distinctions? ...Hmm...I Can't answer that. Can you please elaborate or explain this, please?

Let’s throw a different light on this. Consider this carefully. You are looking at the computer screen (or something else), where are the ‘observer’ (Nasarat), the ‘observing’ and the ‘observed’(the screen)? Can you draw imaginary lines between them? Is the ‘observed’ limited to the outline of the screen?
What about the space between you and the screen? Is that ‘observer’ or ‘observed’?
Look at your hands, your feet, are they ‘observer’ or ‘observed’?
What about the end of your nose? Is that ‘observer’ or ‘observed’?
Where is the observer? Can you see an observer anywhere? Or is at all observed, in one seamless movement?
When we say the sentence ‘Nasarat is looking at the screen’, what is REALLY happening in direct experience?

Again, take your time to contemplate this. Check if it is the same with other things you see around you, sounds you hear, tactile sensations etc. Let me know what you find.

Warm wishes,

Fred

[Nasarat]

Hi Fred

This is not about understanding, and you can’t think your way to liberation.
Is it crucial to you, whether we use the word ‘separate’ together with ‘I’, ‘entity’, or not?

....I didn't write 'to understand the liberation'. I need clear pointers. Why don't you just answer my questions?... Yes, it's important to me, I've told you that.

Sensing some resistance here. What I am saying is that if you answer too quickly, the question may not have time to do its work. If you stay still with the question, you allow your immediate and intimate experience to come through. And if you ‘feel’ stuck, all the more reason to stay with it for a while. Are you with me? Can you agree to that?

I'm ok with that, btw I was going to ask you to query one question per day, it's working well for me, however, I disagree with you on 'the stuck' point. It's very personal and you never know, what to expect until it happens.

I'll answer the rest later. I feel I need to spend more time with it

Cheers
Nasarat

[Freddi]

Hi Nasarat

I didn't write 'to understand the liberation'. I need clear pointers. Why don't you just answer my questions?... Yes, it's important to me, I've told you that.

I am not here to answer your questions, just to give you pointers.
No single word is crucial, ever. What is it about the word 'separate' that seems loaded for you?
Still sensing some resistance/defensiveness here. Would you like us to investigate this feeling together? What is behind it? What are you experiencing when you feel defensive?

I look forward to your later reply and will only give you one question/exercise per day.

Warm wishes

Fred