Help through the Gate

[MLEG]

Hello Vince,

Everything that constitutes experiencing. Stay with that last part - it is a portal to One-ness

Everything that constitutes experiencing - this seems to encompass the flavour of experiencing that you mentioned previously or as I wrote "the sum of all my senses", but it is feeling like something else is missing. It has taken that milli-second moment of time where stuff is happening, rolling forward, and zoomed in another level ! Im struggling to look so closely.

So I look at the the sum of my senses + ? ? ? =

the ?? , what is the missing piece ?

Past experiences, future expectations, but they belong to the world of thinking, labelling etc, which is not in the moment.

It does seems like there is a link to "absolutely everything that has ever existed in the evolution of Martin", which reminds me of the view that "everything happens for a reason"

but for it to be "to be exactly the way it was" is a little scary - scary i suppose because it implies a lack of control. Fear protecting the idea of an "I'm" in control ?

You also mentioned ONE-NESS. Do you mean At ONE or at Peace with the world ? This implies there is ONE reality. Id always thought each person represented one reality. . everyone living in their own respective bubble, and these bubbles interacting whenever they came into contact. In cities, each morning millions of people are waking up to a million worlds.

Sorry if this post seems a bit garbled, but feeling a bit like "not seeing the wood for the trees"

[vinceschubert]

Morning Martin.

Sorry if this post seems a bit garbled,

No, it's all good. There is some great stuff in here to work with.

"not seeing the wood for the trees"

Yes, this is exactly what it is. You are looking past 'IT'. Making it more complicated than it is. You are not looking for something new and exciting, but rather what was already, always there.
It's mind (thoughts) that want to complicate things. The nature of mind is that it wants to categorize and label everything. This is where the delusion of control comes from.

So I look at the the sum of my senses + ? ? ? =
the ?? , what is the missing piece ?

The missing piece is between the quotes; " ".
Get it ?














There is no missing piece. It's only thoughts that say "it can't be this simple".
It really IS. (This simple)

Past experiences, future expectations, but they belong to the world of thinking, labelling etc, which is not in the moment.

Yes, exactly. They can only be accessed as story. Thoughts. Memory and fantasy.
That's not to say that they are not useful or relevent. They have a place. The are necessary for navigating daily existence and communication. They belong to what is often (mistakenly) referred to as the 'consensus reality'.
It's the taking them as something Real, that leads to suffering.

"everything happens for a reason"

This is another big one. It brings us back to dependent conditions.
Now this is a story... Happenings happen because the conditions that the happening is dependent on, are aligned.
It's a story because it can't be known (in direct experiencing).
'Cause and effect' belong in this same story.
But 'cause' is simplistic and implies a single condition that predisposes an outcome.
When we say "everything happens for a reason", there is an implication that the cause has some intelligence behind it. That there is a bigger plan for the outcome.
This story hooks us into the story of a benevolent architect, setting out 'happenings' for a greater good. It's a babies dummy (pacifier) that leads us to believe in the big bloke in the sky and makes us feel good about what is happening.

for it to be "to be exactly the way it was" is a little scary - scary i suppose because it implies a lack of control. Fear protecting the idea of an "I'm" in control ?

Ah yes, well SEEn (even if you didn't realize the importance of it) Yes Fear is a protective process, and the SEEing of it usually dissolves it.
On the issue of control, what if you never had it ?
If everything that needed to happen, or more accurately, everything that did happen, happened in the presence of the ILLUSION of control ?

You also mentioned ONE-NESS. Do you mean At ONE or at Peace with the world ?

No.

Id always thought each person represented one reality. . everyone living in their own respective bubble, and these bubbles interacting whenever they came into contact. In cities, each morning millions of people are waking up to a million worlds.

Me too...
That is until i read Seth (Jane Roberts) where what he said really resonated. What he said was conceptual, but it serves to illustrate the possibility (at an intellectual level). Here is what he said;
That 'All That Is' (aka God) is everything that exists. (and all that doesn't exist)
Being all that is, there was only one thing that All That Is wasn't experiencing, and that was Less than All. So in order to experience Less than All That Is, All That Is projected a limited aspect of Him/Her/It self as humans and animals and every other form that is known and unknown. In this way there could be experiencing from aspects other than All knowing. (end of story)
So consider this; would those 'projections' be to All That Is, as the waves are to the ocean ?
Are the parts that make up the whole actually separate from the whole ?
The non-dual (advaita) school says "One - not two" to highlight the inadequacy of language. When we say "one", there is implied 'other' than one. They want to emphasise that there is only "One". Not two. (or more)
So if all of existence and all of non-existence 'covers' ALL, is there any past or future, or is it the ever present NOW that is referred to ?
As the wave is apparently finite, but can't be separate from the ocean, is Martin in ANY way separate from All That Is ?

love

vince

[MLEG]

Hi Vince

Dependant Conditions - I was noticing this today out walking and saw that nothing happens without dependant conditions - everything that is happening is preceded by a set of conditions which the "happening" is dependant on - this is evident in nature but less so in relation to "me". for example, the waves breaking on the shore are dependant on the wind that generated them, a reef shallow enough that causes them to slow down, and break etc. The wind blowing is dependant on pressure systems, which is dependant on the sun etc etc.

Everything in interdependent. So all these natural conditions come together and things happens. Seeing this in nature is ok, but in relation to my happenings - not so clear.

Im seeing the idea that there never was any "me" in control - just a projected set of stories which tried interpreting happenings in order to satisfy my mind wanting to make order out of the world. Its quite a relief to be free of this "responsibility".

Is there any past or future - in REALITY no, there is just thoughts about that past, and projections about the future.

All That Is & Less Than All That Is - a difficult one to see

But I am sensing the gist of the meaning - Waves are not separate from the ocean, they appear from and disappear back into the ocean. So, Martin is no different than any other organism on earth - we are not separate from nature, or the world. It is my mind that differentiates.

So where does leave us ? There is no self in control, just a mind, body responding to ever evolving things happening, each of these happenings is inter-related through dependant conditions. Nothing is separate from the happenings, nothing is isolated. It seems like an infinitely complex set of feed back mechanisms.

I wonder does this extend to thoughts and emotions too, not just physical actions.

This interdependency, is this what you meant by ONE-ness ?

[vinceschubert]

Seeing this in nature is ok, but in relation to my happenings - not so clear.

Ok, give me an example of a 'personal' happening that is not dependent on conditions.

Im seeing the idea that there never was any "me" in control - just a projected set of stories which tried interpreting happenings in order to satisfy my mind wanting to make order out of the world. Its quite a relief to be free of this "responsibility".

Yes, very freeing. Not only free from, but free to...

there is just thoughts about that past, and projections about the future.

..and they have a place in daily navigation, but it is easy to see how (for example) a story about the future (or past wrong) can have dire consequences on health or equanimity.

All That Is & Less Than All That Is - a difficult one to see

Ok, this is only story until experiencing happens. It isn't our main focus and often isn't discovered until later in the 'journey'. The seed is sown.

Nothing is separate from the happenings, nothing is isolated. It seems like an infinitely complex set of feed back mechanisms.
I wonder does this extend to thoughts and emotions too, not just physical actions.

What could be excluded from ALL ?

This interdependency, is this what you meant by ONE-ness ?

Not quite, although it is an aspect of 'it'.

So where does leave us ?

Let's go through some formal questions and see what they reveal. There are no 'correct' answers, so just have a rant on each one.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

love

vince

[MLEG]

Hello Vince,

There's a lot to be thinking about in your post, so Ill take a bit more time over it and post tomorrow.

All the best
Martin

[MLEG]

Hello Vince,

I might need a bit more time to work through your last post.

This is where I am at the moment:
Last week I had a break though. I saw that experiencing happens in this fraction of a second, where the future and past don't exist, just REALITY unfolding. There is responding to this reality, making choices and decisions based on an infinite set of dependant conditions. Everything that has ever been involved in my existence factors in what happens.

Running parallel to this view, is "me", "me" being an intellect or ego which creates a much more complex view of the world, where there is an independent controller. Making unbiased, independent decisions. The antithesis of dependant conditions. Looking closely, I can see how everything is preceded by something which "drives" an action. Most of the time I am unaware of these dependant conditions, being distracted by the thoughts and emotions which are running in the foreground.

I could go on and on about what "I" think "it" is or isn't, but that is just perpetuating the illusion. I need to put more trust in ignoring the dialogue & stories that the mind creates. Its as if this dialogue serves no purpose, as it only seems to cloud the view of what is really happening.

What I have noticed over the past week is a definite change in my motivation. Before, the controller was getting me up and out, doing this endless list of distracting jobs which would "sort things out". This included running for quite long distances, as the clarity that came from these runs was great. Now, its as if "i" am a lot lazier - as if now there is no "one" to get me up and out doing "stuff". Not that this is a bad thing, but the change in motivation is noticeable.

Hopefully Ill get more clarity soon !

[vinceschubert]

Most of the time I am unaware of these dependant conditions

Ha, Reality is Reality whether it is SEEn or not.

being distracted by the thoughts and emotions which are running in the foreground.

Yes, this happens. Guess what ? This too is an expression of IT.

I could go on and on about what "I" think "it" is or isn't, but that is just perpetuating the illusion.

No. It is the BELIEF (that is not seen as a belief) in the "going on" that is the illusion.

What I have noticed over the past week is a definite change in my motivation.

This will pass. The brain re-wiring can take a lot of energy.(my story) and the expression of it is new unexplored territory. Being human, you will start to experience the full range of human possibilities, now that you aren't tied to the story of Martin.
Obviously you have a story (expectation) that a certain experiencing is required. Tell what you think is missing ?

love

vince

[MLEG]

Hello Vince,

I hope all is well with you. Here's my answers to your questions from the other day.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I'

There is no SEPARATE entity called "I", or "me" - "I" is in my imagination, there is only a body, with senses and a mind interpreting what it believes to be the past, present and future.

But… Without using "I", where does the responsibility lie for my actions ?

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self.

The experience of "I" is forever changing as this dialogue continues. At first "I" was something definite, acting independently in the world. Looking found no "I" which gave rise to a feeling of fear, & subsequently to a sense of loss when "I" couldn't be found. Now things have settled down. When I look closely to see what "it" or "I" is, there is nothing there.

This clarity isn't always there though. The internal dialogue is louder on some days, and I get caught up in that world, which brings a "me" with it, and all the problems associated with believing in "me".

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

On the one hand there is the experiential world, happenings, doing, seeing, writing, etc. The actions, and the responding to things are they unfold.

Where I seem to be getting stuck is finding a view which represents all the actions this organism does, AND all the thoughts & emotions. I can see that thoughts and emotions are also an experience, but what is it that snaps my experiencing from following the thoughts to one that just sees them as just another experience ?

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Previously it was the RESPONDING to events which opened a door for me. I could see that if I drop the controlling "I", and just observe what is happening, then I am able to see reality, and respond to it, rather than IMPOSE my actions or thoughts.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Outside of dependant conditions, no I don't control life. But I am an intrinsic part of these dependant conditions and cannot be separated from them - so in that sense "I" do have an influence of what happens.

Can I make anything happen?

"I" cannot, as there is no "I", but in relation to thoughts, if negative thoughts are left run unchecked, then they can precipitate into reality. Likewise with positive thoughts.

So, this requires an awareness that is aware of awareness (this could, maybe wrongly, be coined "I"). And it is this awareness which acts like an over-seer of thoughts and emotions. It is one thing for me to eat when i am eating etc, but choosing whether to associate or not with internal dialogues requires something that does not EXIST either.

You finished your last post asking what expectations I have that a certain experiencing was required from this. What is missing ?

Ironically, I suppose the realisation that the "I" is missing ! - maybe there is still be some trace of "I" left. There feels to be a bit of a gap - what do "I" do now ! - Even as Im writing this, I know the answer, it is nothing or everything. I suppose previously "I" would have put "myself" under pressure to be doing "stuff". Now this isn't there, it feels a little vacuous.

Could you explain a bit on where thoughts and emotions sit with the view ? Decisions are made in response to dependant conditions. But when assessing the dependant conditions (generally not consciously), it is VERY difficult to not think, e.g. will I go out ? or will I stay in ? What do I feel like doing ? etc etc.

Are these thoughts masquerading the fact that sub-consciously (?) the decision has been made ? Or is it a case that through realising the no self, I can see reality more clearly, and so make a decision that happens effortlessly ? More Zen like, letting things happen, a path of least resistance etc. ?


Thanks
Martin

[vinceschubert]

'morning Martin.

where does the responsibility lie for my actions ?

The answer to every question that you might ask yourself is; "Is it happening in current experiencing ?". If the answer is "no", then it is part of a story. If that is the case, the next question is; "Is this story useful ?"
Now let's apply this procedure to your question. No and No, would be the answers. "responsibility" is obviously a story of morality. If you replaced it with 'consequences' then you have a reality based concept. You might also recognise that those actions just happened. Who is 'owning' them ? Certainly not a self. They were the result of conditions (my useful story)

This clarity isn't always there though.

Of course not. It takes time for the brain to re-wire.
Have a look at this video on that; https://www.dropbox.com/s/mskv8uxmnmf2f ... Being.mp4
To accelerate the re-wiring, i suggest that every time that you Recognise that you were/are/about to 'act out' a story, that you laugh. Laugh out loud with a great guffaw, or just an internal laugh that is expressed with the eyes, or anywhere in between. It's good to contract the stomach muscles in a convulsive way with this laugh. This releases oxytocin into the brain and changes the emotional state that is currently associated with the story. It is especially valuable to do this with stories that usually evoke a negative emotion. Even if you Recgognise that you have been 'living out' a story, some time after it has finished, still do the laugh. The time will come when you will Recognise that you were about to get into a story and the laugh will happen spontaneously. What started with a 'fake' laugh will become genuine humor.

Where I seem to be getting stuck is finding a view which represents all the actions this organism does,

By "finding a view", do you mean creating a story ? Will this be useful ?

Outside of dependant conditions, no I don't control life.

How many of those conditions are in the control of a Self ?

so in that sense "I" do have an influence of what happens.

Two things here. 1/ the most influence that is possible is Intention. ..and that just arises. & 2/ Who is it that is involved ?

if negative thoughts are left run unchecked, then they can precipitate into reality. Likewise with positive thoughts.

Oh yes. The thoughts themselves are being experienced, even though the content is purely conceptual (story), but the reaction to them is very real.

then I am able to see reality, and respond to it, rather than IMPOSE my actions or thoughts.

Is that response actually controlled ? ..or is it something that just arises as a result of recognising what is happening ?

So, this requires an awareness that is aware of awareness

..good story. This still supposes that there is someone that is in control to apply that "awareness".

but choosing whether to associate or not with internal dialogues requires something that does not EXIST either.

Yes, exactly.
Watch experiencing and see if Recognition is all it takes ?

Now this isn't there, it feels a little vacuous.

Yes, that is just because it is unfamiliar. It will pass.

it is VERY difficult to not think, e.g. will I go out ? or will I stay in ? What do I feel like doing ? etc etc.

Just watch with interest the old dialogue happening, then have a laugh.

More Zen like, letting things happen, a path of least resistance etc. ?

Yes. Just witness with humor.

love

vince

[MLEG]

Hi Vince,

With every post there is more and more deconstruction ! to the point now where there is nothing left, which is good, it feels very light & spacious.

I like your comment about asking whether something is happening in current experiencing or not. This cuts through the bullshit very cleanly. Everything outside of current experiencing is a story, useful or not.

All thinking and intellectualising about the nature of reality is just more stories, and generally not very useful. I should just look around me to find out what IS or ISN'T.

Dependant Conditions being in the control of Self ? -No, its seeing what IS happening, and responding accordingly. I was blind in a way before, not able to SEE what IS. Caught up in this idea that there was an "I" who could control Life. There is no person at the controls.

What is important is paying more attention to recognising the arisings in experiencing, and less to the stories in my head. Otherwise life is slipping by. No Self - No controlling what happens - everything just playing out as it should.

Intention arises from the great "void" too, but it is also a story and should be seen so. This all boils down the to HERE & NOW. There is nothing else. Emotions, thoughts are all outside the realm of current experiencing. Even current experiencing is this trippy micro second moment. If I stop experiencing, Im back in imagination land ! It begs the question, what is mind for ? I would hazard a guess that it is a tool to communicate & navigate my way in the world, but it is not THE world.

No secret ANSWER, no PLOT, no WAY, no VIEW even. Defining a VIEW just makes a story out of it, and so the VIEWING or EXPERIENCING is lost.

I watched the video you sent. Very interesting. Proof that there is no Self amongst all those neurons !!


All the best
Martin

[vinceschubert]

Morning Martin. Well. It 'feels' to me as if you have SEEn clearly what the illusion of a Self is. i need to get 3 others to confirm that you have passed through the gateless gate, then you will be invited to join a Facebook group where 'gatecrashers' support each other.
There are many new 'skills' to be considered as you are entering a whole new world now.
Anyway, lots of this kind of processing happens in those groups, so "friend" me on Facebook and i will invite you to join.(when confirmation occurs)
https://www.facebook.com/vince.schubert

love

vince

[MLEG]

Hi Vince,
Thank you for all your time, energy & support. Its been a liberating few weeks :)

Best regards
Martin

[vinceschubert]

Hi Martin, i have some questions from other guides.
1. Could you just ask at this point for some recent day to day examples for question 5 to get a look on how that is currently experienced. thanks.
2. Please clarify what you mean by “…. But I am an intrinsic part of these dependant conditions and cannot be separated from them - so in that sense "I" do have an influence of what happens.”

Thanks

vince

[MLEG]

Hi Vince,

I'll look at experiences in day to day life regarding dependant conditions and come back with what Im seeing.

All the best
Martin

[MLEG]

Hello Vince,
I hope all is well with you. Ive written down some thoughts on dependant conditions, control and experiencing, along with some day to day examples. Nothing too profound Im afraid - my life is pretty quiet !

ps. there are a few uses of the word "I" below, it was easier this way rather than referring to "Martin" all the time in 3rd person. Apologies if they aren't all in quotes to highlight the lack of "I".

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Looking at this I see two things, the word "you" and "decide / control events in life". "you" or "I" do not exist in reality. An autopsy would not be able to remove "me" for closer examination. Synonymous with this mental construct of "I" or "me" is the word "control" as it implies that there is a "something" acting out a will / plan. In Buddhism there is also "grasping". This comes from a projected view of the world, from the ordinary mind. When the myriad of thoughts & stories are taken to be real, then an "I" evolves, and with it a notion that the world is controllable. Attachment, aversion & suffering are also synonymous with this view.

But enough of the hypothesising !

I was out for dinner on the way home from work a couple of weekends ago. A "penny had dropped" that day in relation to experiencing reality and not controlling it. I decided to put it into practise, and found that by really looking at what is happening, 99.9% of reality was missed before. Interacting with people was much more open and friendly. I was looking around me, seeing things with different eyes. And so responding differently. I had to wait for a table, which was dependant on others finishing their dinner first, drinking a beer, looking out the window, waiting, not finding it frustrating to wait. Happy to get the table, waiter was friendly, eating a nice dinner, tipping the waiter, he was happy etc etc. The night evolved in synchronicity to everyones else's night. There was a palpable difference when I focussed on what was in current experiencing.

Yesterday I was out with my daughter, and was still focusing on current experiencing, and realising what stories are useful and what one weren't (on a side not - too many stories were completely unhealthy). determined to be SEEing and as it turned out "I" saw and chatted to loads of friends. Something was more open, and allowed the day to progress with a natural "order" and ease. Previously I probably would have been all self absorbed and hurried my way though the day - feeling a bit agoraphobic / antisocial. Yesterday, I was just cruising around, looking, experiencing, seeing. When I met friends, I was relaxed, more present, engaged better etc. So as a result of SEEing, I saw loads more people !

Tonight I was doing a training session on the bike, and there was no "I" controlling what was happening there either. No controlling how my heart rate increased, how my muscles worked, etc. This body was doing what it does.

There was intention to do the training session, but the circumstances leading up to doing the session all came together with no input from "me" e.g. my daughter went to sleep easily, "my" wife went out to visit friends, no one called round. "I" had no control over these events. "I" also had no control over the body during the session. Previous experiences on a bike enabled be to complete the session.

The more looking thats done, the more examples of how accepting no "I" works. My daughter has decided the recycling bin should live in a different part of the kitchen - thats totally fine by me now!, before I probably would have kept putting it back where "I" thought it should be, and been frustrated when she moved it AGAIN. What a total waste of precious time. Stuff like that is truly a distraction from the world unfolding before our eyes. Even this mundane example seems filled with potential for nowness.

Nature is a wonderful inspiration when doubt rears its ugly head. All the birds busy nesting, chirping away in the dawn chorus, swallows arriving a month early in response to warmer weather (?) etc. None of it happening with an "I" or "me" in sight.

In my previous post I also wrote "I am an intrinsic part of these dependant conditions and cannot be separated from them - so in that sense "I" do have an influence of what happens.”

Thinking about this more, what was meant was that we humans are not independent in this world. Nothing we do is in isolation, everything is interdependent and connected. I am writing this now in response to guides seeking further clarification, in response to questions Vince asked, in response to "me" posting on the LU website initially etc etc. So, all of these dependant conditions has resulted in sitting at my kitchen table, alone in a quiet house, after my training session, while my daughter sleeps and my wife is out ! This is it. That is experiencing right now.

As far as having an influence on what happens - the most "I" have is intention. I wouldn't be sitting here now if there wasn't the intention for understanding reality / my mind better. But Intention shouldn't be under estimated either.

But I have no control on any of it ! it does make me smile when it hits home. What Im writing now is related to my daughter crying out, because "I" had to leave the computer, came back, wrote something different. felt hungry, ate a snack, deleted some of what was written, now writing again. Its all rolling out in this crazy way, but only crazy because the intellectual mind had complicated the whole way of being. when in fact its just a matter of going with the flow.

All the best
Martin