I Need an Experienced Guide

[Ilona]

Can you describe in detail, what and where is this sense of self. When does ir show up, what triggers it. Is ir different from feeling tension, contraction, resistance?

Write what you find.

Sending love.

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[NoOneHome]

Hi Ilona,

Can you describe in detail, what and where is this sense of self.

Some of it is a residual belief in a self that does things and to whom things happen. The intellectual component of the belief is either gone or highly suppressed, but there is a habitual or instinctive component that remains. Often it appears as a thought about “me” that is believed before I have another thought “Oh, I shouldn’t believe that thought; there is no self”. Other times it is not a verbalized thought but a vague notion or sense that arises. I’m not sure of the right term to use to describe it when it is not verbalized. Maybe “non-verbal thought”. I will use that term to describe it for now.

There is also a sense that I exist in a definite physical location associated with the body. It seems to be in my head right behind my eyes.

When does ir show up, what triggers it.

The sense of self is triggered by thoughts or emotions that assert that “I” am doing something or something is happening to “me”. If the body is doing something (even just thinking), the sense of self often arises in the form of a verbal or non-verbal thought taking credit for the doing. If I receive a sense perception indicating that something has happened to “me”, the sense of self often arises in the form of a verbal or non-verbal thought that implies that “I” am affected somehow.

Is ir different from feeling tension, contraction, resistance?

Those things can trigger sense perceptions indicating that something has happened to “me” (as described in the above paragraph), but they do not explain everything I mentioned above. The belief component of the sense of self can arise from something neutral or positive as well. And then there is still the sense that I exist in a physical location in my head (which sounds ridiculous in one way, and completely obvious in another!).

Brent

[Ilona]

There is also a sense that I exist in a definite physical location associated with the body. It seems to be in my head right behind my eyes.

it seems, yes, but what is actually true? look, are you inside the head? in experience, is there a place behind eyes or it's an idea that there is this entity sitting there watching all through eyes?
where seeing happens?
where hearing happens?
is awareness of perceiving inside the head?
don't stop looking, till you are sure, till you can answer without words like "seems, appears, maybe, perhaps etc"

[NoOneHome]

Hi Ilona,

There is also a sense that I exist in a definite physical location associated with the body. It seems to be in my head right behind my eyes.

it seems, yes, but what is actually true? look, are you inside the head? in experience, is there a place behind eyes or it's an idea that there is this entity sitting there watching all through eyes?

There is no evidence in direct experience that I exist in a definite physical location. It was just an idea brought on by the head being the center of perception.

where seeing happens?
where hearing happens?

I can tell from experimenting that the seeing and hearing happen at my head.

is awareness of perceiving inside the head?
don't stop looking, till you are sure, till you can answer without words like "seems, appears, maybe, perhaps etc"

I can’t determine the location of the awareness of the perceiving. It is natural to assume it is closely located to the cluster of sensory organs in the head.

Brent

[Ilona]

I can tell from experimenting that the seeing and hearing happen at my head.

interesting... if you hear a distant sound of plain or traffic, how big is your head?? how big is your head if you look up the sky and see stars? is there a container of experience?

I can’t determine the location of the awareness of the perceiving. It is natural to assume it is closely located to the cluster of sensory organs in the head.

oh yeah, it is natural to assume, but we are looking here at what is true, challenging and questioning assumptions. so for a minute let all be as it is and look, is perception happening in the wide open field or a little compartment called "head"?

without assuming anything, without memory of school books, what is actually happening? in experience, not in thinking about it.

sending love

[NoOneHome]

Hi Ilona,

I can tell from experimenting that the seeing and hearing happen at my head.

interesting... if you hear a distant sound of plain or traffic, how big is your head?? how big is your head if you look up the sky and see stars?

I think you may have misunderstood me. I did not mean that my head extends to the source of the sound or sight, but that the sound wave or light wave is sensed at my head. That was what I deduced based on the fact that sounds get louder when I move my head closer to them, and objects look bigger and clearer when I move my head closer to them.

is there a container of experience?

No. But the farther my head is from something the harder it is to hear sounds the thing makes and the harder it is to see the thing.

I can’t determine the location of the awareness of the perceiving. It is natural to assume it is closely located to the cluster of sensory organs in the head.

oh yeah, it is natural to assume, but we are looking here at what is true, challenging and questioning assumptions.

Ok, the the location of the awareness of the perceiving is unknown.

Actually, I have been intensely focused for the last week or so on direct experience and challenging assumptions. But I didn’t feel that it was an assumption to say that my head is the center of my perceptions. That is why I said that I can tell it from experimenting (rather than thinking about it).

so for a minute let all be as it is and look, is perception happening in the wide open field or a little compartment called "head"? without assuming anything, without memory of school books, what is actually happening? in experience, not in thinking about it.

In my direct experience, the sensing of sound and light is happening in my head because it is more clear and intense when the source is closer to my head. And if I put an insulated bag on my head, I can't see or hear anything. That proves that my head is sensing light and sound. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that the processing of the information after it is sensed is happening in my head. I can't tell that in direct experience.

If you still think I am missing something or making an assumption, please help me clear it up. I feel like I am very close...

Thanks,

Brent

[Ilona]

Hi Brent,
I see that there is still thinking rather then looking. Let go. Mind can not work it out, you have to look, which is not the same.

That was what I deduced based on the fact that sounds get louder when I move my head closer to them, and objects look bigger and clearer when I move my head closer to them.

This is trying to understand using mind. Don't try to work it out by deduction or logic. Yes, head is a condition for hearing and seeing, no head, no seeing, right. All is interdependent, loud sound quiet sound, they don't happen in the head. Now take a look, where sounds happen? Close your eyes, so visual perception is minimised, listen to sounds for 15 minutes, don't think about science and biology, just hear what is being heard.

In experience is there a head? Where does head end and out there start? Without memory or thinking, what is "head"?
Is there a centre of experience?

Is there a gap between hearer, heard and hearing?

Sending love.

[NoOneHome]

Hi Ilona,

Now take a look, where sounds happen? Close your eyes, so visual perception is minimised, listen to sounds for 15 minutes, don't think about science and biology, just hear what is being heard.

So I did this exercise.

There is no way to say where the sounds happen. They come from different directions and distances, but where exactly they originate is unknown based only on direct experience. I’m having trouble telling how much of the sense of the direction of the sound and the distance to the source are based on past experience or concepts vs. direct experience.

In experience is there a head? Where does head end and out there start? Without memory or thinking, what is "head"?

It is really hard not to filter the experience through memories and concepts of the head, but I can see that there is no head in the experience. There is just the experience of sound being heard.

Is there a centre of experience?

The fact that the sounds come from different directions suggests a center of the experience via triangulation. But again, I’m unsure how much of that process is based on memory or concepts vs. direct experience.

Is there a gap between hearer, heard and hearing?

There is no gap. There is just the experience of hearing.

Brent

[Ilona]

Great, now you are looking.

Now do this exercise with fruit.
Have a fruit in front of you and examine what is actually seen. Close eyes and imagine that you are holding that fruit in the hand, weight it, feel the texture, temperature, bite, smell it and experience the imagined fruit in vivid detail.

For a couple of minutes after that, describe experience in full. Write about it.

Then actually take that fruit in hand and do all the same observation with eyes open.

Describe experience.

Then tell me, what is the difference between imagined fruit, experienced fruit and description of the experience.
Can you see, that this, that is happening, is here with and without description. With and without concepts, memory or ideas.

Write what you notice.

Sending love.

[NoOneHome]

Ilona,

I already did the fruit exercise and reported the results in great detail in my 15 March post.

Brent

[Ilona]

I see.. :) yes you did and wrote about it in great details.
We are looking now if perception is localised, if it's happening in a head and if this head limits experience. Breefly, take a look, where does smell and taste happen?
Kind of do this exercise again, but focus on where is experience taking place, is there a definite locality, is there a centre of experience. It's good to test with each sense channel. So play with it and write what you notice.

[NoOneHome]

Hi Ilona,

So I have an apple in front of me. I am going to eat it and examine where the tasting and smelling experiences are happening…

It has barely any smell, so I am focusing on the taste and the feeling of eating. It is crisp, sour and juicy.

When I look closely, it is very clear that the biting and chewing sensations, and the taste of the apple, are not limited to a particular physical location or associated with the head; they appear to be only if I rely on memories and an understanding of anatomy. There is no location information in the sensations themselves.

The head doesn’t actually limit experience. The only limitation is filtering the experience through the concept of the head and de-emphasizing or ignoring the parts of the experience that don’t fit the preconceived notion of what is happening.

Brent

[Ilona]

Excellent!

Now look at this: is there a centre which moves focus, or focus moves freely?

Sit with eyes closed for 15 min and watch focus. Catch what is going on. How does focus move? What moves it? What attracts attention most?
Focus on attention itself and simply watch it in action.

Write what you notice.

Happy Easter!

[NoOneHome]

Ok I did the focus exercise.

Focus moves on its own with no direction from "me". It jumps from one thing to the next. With my eyes shut, the focus is drawn to sounds and thoughts that pop up. It just moves with no apparent cause other than the arising of a new stimulus.

Happy Easter back at you.

[Ilona]

Great! Now look at what is looking. What is that seeing is happening to?
What happens when you ask these questions?

Sending love.