Looking for guidance - Thanks :)

[diegoblues]

That's a good point you brought up. There's no one doing the stuff, just thoughts appearing, thoughts attributing it all to an "I" , belief (it's kind of hard for me to define belief now, perhaps thoughts+feelings+thoughts about previous feelings on and on?). But it's all thought all the way down. The believer is the believed.

The tricks me into believing is just another set / stream of thoughts, trying to dodge the reality that there's no I to believe anything. There are thoughts about non-duality and understanding that the "I" is just another thought and not an independent entity, then there are thoughts about an "I" buried somewhere, then more thoughts about believing there's an "I", being tricked into belief and so on....

But in the end of the day, is just thought after thought after thought, some feelings, and then labels about these feeling and more thoughts about the labels and so on.

Lately some thoughts came to focus, about apathy and dettachment. Much of the inner turmoil about money has vanished, although I have started looking for a job once again, in IT, which I haven't worked in since 2011, and possibily I"ll have to give up most projects I"m working on and some currently running. But there were no feelings of sadness, only some thoughts, but mostly, a sense of things just happening the way they should.

Just as birds move from tree to tree, no intention, no ego, just movement happening, as if nature itself was orchestrating it.

[Devina]

Pretty cool. :) Can you find a center to the movement?

[diegoblues]

No, no center, although some thoughts show up saying that "I" is the center, this "filter" of consciousness (by this I mean "my" point of view of what happens in the world, not as an opinion, but as a focal point, a filter of visual stimuli), etc, it is not, it seems like it is a whole thing, so there's no center just as an ocean has no center, or a jell-o does not have a center (all attempts to point to a center are based on conventions, that start from previous conventions and so on, but then again is all just thoughts and concepts.)

[Devina]

Well, there's a picture happening, but how? Is it happening to someone or by someone? Is the someone inside of or behind the view? Using a finger to point at this point of view :)... is the finger seen by a seer, is it pointed by a doer, is it owned by an owner, is it also the owner? Very confusing that it's supposedly all these things! But look, really check, visually.

[diegoblues]

Hello, I'm still here! Sorry for the two days without posting back.

Its kind of confusing, but it seems like it is happening by someone, this someone is inside. Without this someone, there's no picture. Sleep comes to mind, deep sleep, when everything is shut down, and there's nothing going on, no image, no sounds, no feelings.

Then when sleep ends, experiences come back, and also the sense of ownership, but the owner and the owned can't really be separated from each other.

The finger and the seer, the pointer and the doer, seem to be all the same. Some thoughts pronounce otherwise, but once again, in deep sleep, no thoughts occurr, no I, no owner. The impression I have right now is that I'm just another part of this experience, although some thoughts appear and their content is that there's an "I" who's somehow, some way detached from it. But they're just thoughts.

These last couple of days, some things happened, which teoretically scare me out, being the things the "I" feared the most. Except that it all felt like a movie passing by, every movement of this body, every thought, every action, was already pre-determined, and even the thoughts that spoke differently, where all scenes, elements from the plot.

One moment stood out, when I was having dinner with my mother, and we spoke, and moved in a very mechanical, synchronized manner. Soon after it, a thought showed up, saying: this seems very odd, synchronized and mechanical, and seconds later, the same thing happened, mechanical movements, and more thoughts, about the impossibility of an "I" or an identity controlling or even influencing the outcomes of the actions.

[Devina]

Hello, I'm still here! Sorry for the two days without posting back.

It helps to check in, if only to say you're checking in.

Its kind of confusing, but it seems like it is happening by someone, this someone is inside. Without this someone, there's no picture. Sleep comes to mind, deep sleep, when everything is shut down, and there's nothing going on, no image, no sounds, no feelings.

This is correlation/causation - there seems to be a character when awake, so the character must have something to do with it. But all of this falls apart when actually examined. Like saying "magic" makes the sun come up, the character is an assumption. Where is it? Inside? That's vague. Find it! All of this guiding is really only one exercise - look, check, in experience. Where is the self? When searching, is it found?

Sure, thoughts will come up. Look at them. Are THEY the character or are they ABOUT the character? Then check: is anyone hearing them? Believing them? Actually check these things for evidence, the way you'd check to see if a ball really falls when dropped. Set aside a good ten minutes to sit and test for proof of a self. Who is checking? Find them. Pay attention to how "checking" really works - what's really going on step by step? Where would a self fit in there?

Luck and love.

[diegoblues]

I can't find it, to be honest, it's only "location" is mentioned in thoughts, but no physical root, no ZIP code. One analogy would be software/hardware, it's as if the I was a software, that even though it runs on my brain's hardware, it is not it, nor can I locate it in a specific neuron or set of neurons. It's a recurring theme in many thoughts, most of often implicit.

I"m sorry, but I'm stuck on the checking part. How do I check it? The only tools avaliable to check are other thoughts, and they're not reliable, they're part of the problem. I can't devise a way to check that would bring me clarity. There are thoughts about they as the character, and thoughts about they are about the character.

The concept of anyone hearing and believing them is blurry. The only "one" who could do it would be the "I", however, the "I" is just another trend in thoughts, so no "one" is hearing nor believing them, these two are implicit in other thoughts. If I check a ball dropping there's visual stimuli, and before and after for me to compare with, however with thoughts it is not so clear.

Checking seems to be just another label for thoughts, thought after thought stating that checking is being done, all from the basic premise of the possibility of a "checker" existing, otherwise no checking would be possible. But this basic premise is implicit most of the time. It is taken as truth just like gravity and all else starts from there.

I know this sounds very circular but I'm having a hard time getting around it. Thanks for your support.

[Devina]

Sure, Diego, this is lovely.

I can't find it, to be honest, it's only "location" is mentioned in thoughts, but no physical root, no ZIP code.... If I check a ball dropping there's visual stimuli, and before and after for me to compare with, however with thoughts it is not so clear.

Look with perceptions. Sight, sound, feeling. When someone insults you, what happens? Who is hurt? Regardless of any thoughts - the person being hurt should be able to be found if they exist, right?

Does the self have a shape?

[diegoblues]

There's no self to be found with sights, sounds and feelings. Any attempt to identify a self is just pairing these stimuli with thoughts, or with the body as a whole, but these are just thoughts that label stuff and attach/connect thoughts to feelings, stimuli from the senses.

Lately, I haven't been insulted by anything or anyone, and this is not lip service, I had people in traffic, in my circle of family and friends come to give me the time of the day, but even though some feelings of slight anxiety come, there's no anger or real insult being taken, because a thought pops up and says: "this isn't real, you shouldn't be offended by illusions". No offense to be taken, because there's no one to be offended. Seconds later it is out of sight, out of mind.

It's as if the basic premise of an "I" to be offended is shaken, and the premise of the "reality" of those who are offending is also question, so no basically there's no real "I" to be offended by "dream figures".

The self does not have a shape, although thoughts say that it is linked/likened to the physical body, but then again other thoughts say that is not. The only "shape" I could think of right now would be some electrical activity in my brain, however, it wouldn't be a stable, fixed shape, it would be dynamic, so it's not really a shape, and has no physical counterpart at all.

Perhaps a very broad description of a "phenomena", like saying: a "storm", but even so, it is too vague and too broad, it's not reliable. A repeting trend of chaotic electric activity in my brain, which results in thoughts that attempt to create a continuity amongst themselves and a sense of a common thread, a "self".

[Devina]

Perhaps a very broad description of a "phenomena", like saying: a "storm", but even so, it is too vague and too broad, it's not reliable.

Good analogy for life, actually. Is there anything separating any clouds of phenomena from each other? Where does the storm of "you" end and the storm of the rest of the universe begin?

A repeting trend of chaotic electric activity in my brain, which results in thoughts that attempt to create a continuity amongst themselves and a sense of a common thread, a "self".

Using perception - can this thread of continuity be found? What lies between thoughts?

[diegoblues]

Only thoughts, that create an "artificial" separation, by labeling things. These labels are repeated so often that they end up not being questioned anymore, but only labels.

The storm of Diego, as usually is thought, supposedly ends within the boundaries of the physical body. But this is also a learned concept. A series of labels to limit inside / outside. Thinking about it, a question came to mind: "in an ocean, how do you determine where one single drop begins and where it ends?"

This is arbitrary. Any criteria chosen will be merely abstract and to large degree random. Even scientific criteria, are also arbitrary, only made of more complex labels and unquestioned assumptions. The truth is, there's no way to know where one thing begins and where other ends, altough thoughts attempt to label and create certain "boundaries", they're just labels, discourse.

The thread of continuity cannot be found, only implied, and implying is just another variety of thoughts performing a different "function".

What lies between thoughts.... in "my" mind, it is brief silence, from the dialogue of thoughts, in the world, things continue, constant, clouds move, sun shines on my window, music plays on the radio, regardless of thoughts. The world goes on.

[Devina]

That's it. Looking goes on? Attention, feeling, movement? Nothing left to be called "me"?

[diegoblues]

Looking goes on, attention, feeling, movement, just happens. There are still thoughts about "me", but they're just thoughts. I can't find or point to a "me", even though these thoughts mention it, they all depend on previous assumptions that don't hold true under scrutiny.

All "me" thought activities are circular loops, like a dog chasing its own tail.

[Devina]

Rainbows, mirages in the desert, optical illusions... even though they honestly seem to be there, solid and real... they show how thoughts can be mistaken.

So who is looking?
Who wants to go through a gate?
Is there an owner of the body?
A controller?
Someone at the helm?

[diegoblues]

Funny, yesterday I laid down to sleep and turned on the reading lights, they reflect on the tv set and 4 "rainbow rays" spring out from them, when I look at their reflection on the turned off TV screen.

Right now, nobody's looking, nobody wants to go through a gate, because there's no gate. The body does its own thing, like an animal does his own thing in the wild and has no ego to guide it along. There are thoughts about an "I", about control, about freewill, about authorship, but these are just thoughts, and there's no way a thought can be at causation level, because they all happen after the things their content claims ownership for.

It takes good care of itself, and does the things it does regardless of thoughts that state it otherwise.
It's not like these thoughts stopped, they still show up, it's just that somehow they don't stick anymore. There's no loop, no self-referencing scheme to sustain the existence of an "I", it seems. The "I" thoughts are followed by thoughts that immediately challenge and dispute their validity.