Looking for guidance - Thanks :)

[Devina]

I think the only spot where awareness ends, currently, to my experience, is to the "I" thought, or rather, stream of thoughts.

If awareness ends there, how do thoughts register?

The thoughts are now more "accepting" of the idea of being just a passive observer, but still, a observer nonetheless. The eyes behind the camera.

Can thoughts see? This seems obvious, but literally, notice a thought passing by and see if there is ANY sentience to it.

Spend some time each day checking in on what's going on - how the body is working just fine on autopilot. Where were "you?"

[diegoblues]

Thinking again, awareness never ends anywhere. It is all there is. Even these thoughts I had are awareness, even if they are misleading.

Thoughts cannot see, they cannot do anything actually. There's this illusion, this interpretation that they can, but once again, even interpretations are nothing more than thought sequences.

I did have an experience today, for a brief second or two, where it was clear. I was watching a movie and felt a little sleepy. I put the the remote control to stand supported by its side, instead of just lying down. I did not think about doing it before, nor after. It was performed by the body, and I just noticed it happened later, with such a delay that no thought to claim authorship would "convince" me.

When I first noticed it, I closed my eyes as if going into sleep, then opened it a second later. The remote was still standing, supported by its thin, lateral side, and it stayed so for some more seconds.

I knew right away, that if I tried to "consciously" putting it to stand that way, it would take me some time and effort, and many tries before getting it right. So it was clear, obvious that the body is handling itself. During these brief seconds, there were no thoughts in my mind, only awareness, of life flowing as a whole. I then had a short lived feeling similar to one I had once while meditating once, and being able to clear my mind of thoughts for a brief second or two.

I know I shouldn't be chasing these sorts of experiences, but during those seconds, there was no I, no thoughts, no authorship. Just life happening, "pure" awareness, if I can call it so. Then thoughts came back, but no so strong as before.

I let the rest of the day flow. I feel lighter, and there's an uncanny sense that things are ok. One thing contributed to it, my mom gave me some money today, even though yesterday she told me she wouldn't. After this unexpected surprise the sense of "things are flowing" got even stronger. Other business opportunities are appearing out of nowhere, in the last days.

But I can't say I'm completely there yet. I need to watch how the next days will unfold.

[Devina]

Thinking again, awareness never ends anywhere. It is all there is.

Bah, this sounds like something out of a book. What does this concept look like in experience, now?

I know I shouldn't be chasing these sorts of experiences, but during those seconds, there was no I, no thoughts, no authorship. Just life happening, "pure" awareness, if I can call it so. Then thoughts came back, but no so strong as before.

This is like a swimmer wanting to learn how to float. It's already happening. Just look - is there less awareness now? Is life flowing or not? Do thoughts somehow block it, or fit in it? Who would be blocked? Who could chase anything?

But I can't say I'm completely there yet.

Where is "there?" Who would get there? Explain using only what is physically experienced now.

[diegoblues]

Awareness now, in experience, is attention, all that comes to my attention, all the input from the senses + the content of my thoughts.

Life is flowing, regardless of what I do. Thoughts create the illusion of being capable of blocking, but I can't be sure. Sometimes the inner dialogue is annoying, irritates me, the thoughts go in a roll and bad feelings arise. They are able to trick me into to thinking that there's a small amount of free will, thinking about doing X, then doing X, because my thoughts made me do so.

When I said there, I meant being able to grasp the "I" thought is just another thought, and there's no "author/owner" of this experience. Right now, physically, I get input from my five senses, mainly my computer screen, the sound of the keyboard being typed by my hands, a little feeling of pressure on my legs and arms, a little taste in my mouth and thirst. And I hear thoughts.

[Devina]

Awareness now, in experience, is attention, all that comes to my attention, all the input from the senses + the content of my thoughts.

Sure, okay. What makes them "my" thoughts?

Thoughts create the illusion of being capable of blocking, but I can't be sure.

Sure you can - just observe! What actually seems to be going on? Pressure, typing, etc. Anything being blocked?

[Thoughts] are able to trick me into to thinking that there's a small amount of free will...

Who is being tricked? Can you find them, plant a flag on them?

When I said there, I meant being able to grasp the "I" thought is just another thought.

This is really just observation, nothing to grasp. There's a cup in front of you, thoughts can think about the cup. Thoughts talk about a me, can it be picked up like the cup?

And I hear thoughts.

Who hears them? This is like the camera. Don't assume there's a hearer; look for them.

[diegoblues]

Sure, okay. What makes them "my" thoughts?

Subsequent thoughts that claim ownership, stating that it was this same neurological system where they have been generated from that was used to author these thoughts.

Sure you can - just observe! What actually seems to be going on? Pressure, typing, etc. Anything being blocked?

While in action, nothing seems to be blocked, or even blockable. What seems to be blockable is the beginning of new actions, or the "acting out" of action-related actions, for example: I want to fill my glass of water, then I think I should finish writing here, thus, this action was blocked. Perhaps not by the thought per se, but the volition was not carried out to completeness.

Who is being tricked? Can you find them, plant a flag on them?

This I was being tricked, this stream of thought that serve an identity function. I can't plant a flag on them, as I interpret, they are chemical reactions happening in my brain.

This is really just observation, nothing to grasp. There's a cup in front of you, thoughts can think about the cup. Thoughts talk about a me, can it be picked up like the cup?

The me can't be picked up physically, because it is an intellectual concept, that describes intangible thought processes. The cup is also a concept, but it is linked to physical, matter-made objects, so it can be picked up. The I is usually associated to the body, even though it is not a body. Right now, what comes to mind is that the I is a series of thoughts performing the function of limiting experiences (thoughts, feelings, input from the senses) that are at the physical body's reach. It also claims authorship from some of the actions I've made, even though I can't be completely sure.

Who hears them? This is like the camera. Don't assume there's a hearer; look for them.

I hear them, thoughts being chemical reactions happening at the nervous system of this body the "I" inhabits. Without this nervous system, or without its proper functioning, there would be no I to hear anything or no content to be heard. As this is not the case, these thoughts show up, are "heard" inside my head similarly to sounds coming from the external environment and are processed.

One example, I have tinnitus (buzzing in my ears). It annoys me when I try to go to sleep. Even when I'm quiet, breathing and clearing my mind, tinitus comes, then "I" think that it is like a curse, subsequent thoughts arise, and even if the "I" is not thinking all of the subsequent thoughts, the I is keeping track/reacting to them.

I have read and accept intellectually the possibility of no I, or the I just being another stream of thoughts, with peculiar characteristics. However, it doesn't change much in my experience. Even though I can understand that I have way less autonomy over the actions of the physical body and the thinking mind, there are always some events where I can't discard a minimum possibility of free will, or even if there's no free will / cause and effect at all, at least a silent witness, a constant amongst all those thoughts, the "I" that is simply observing all of these thoughts, even the I thoughts.

I get stuck. I try to "See", "Get" and all other verbs in the imperative form, but I currently can't. It seems much more like an act of blind faith than actually getting. But I believe it is possible to "get it", or realize that there's no I. I just don't know how.

I thought about the Santa Claus metaphor and other things I learn to be false over time, but I can't relate to "I" being false too. I'm a great fan of debunking, and I do beliefs busting with my clients all day along. But this one I can't seem to proceed. No matter how hard I push, how long I spend looking, trying to see, trying to get it.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but it's frustrating sometimes. I'm putting a lot of effort in it but nothing seems to show up, I feel like swimming against the upstream. :(

[Devina]

no I, or the I just being another stream of thoughts...

It is more than this. So much more than this!

"'I' is just a thought" is often the last step in seeing no-self, but it's not the whole of no-self.

This is like math. You can repeat 2+2=4 like dogma, but that's useless for visceral understanding. The idea we have anything figured out can be counterproductive. Roll the sleeves up and be willing to be wrong. It helps.

Any time the brain is mentioned, this means we're in the land of theory again, repeating what's been heard from others. Step back to observation of the present moment. Are there four humors here? The only way to find out is to check and see. :)

Who hears them? This is like the camera. Don't assume there's a hearer; look for them.

As this is not the case, these thoughts show up, are "heard" inside my head similarly to sounds coming from the external environment and are processed.

Do sounds come from an external source - that is, are they "out there" before they are sensed "inside" a head? Or is this something that has been learned from textbooks and isn't what actually appears to happen moment to moment?

Tonight, see if the tinnitus is travelling anywhere and smacking into a "hearer!" See if you can locate who is irritated, or pin down what that phrase actually means.

I want to fill my glass of water, then I think I should finish writing here, thus, this action was blocked. Perhaps not by the thought per se, but the volition was not carried out to completeness.

Sure, okay. But where did the thought come from? Is anyone in control of it? Does a raindrop block a river?

Much love, Diego!
D.

[diegoblues]

Sorry for taking so long to reply, surprisingly these last days have been very productive for me, in terms of doing work.

The tinnitus seems to come from inside my head, near my left ear. The irritation that it brings is a thought, or series of thoughts, that talk about the irritation, then a feeling in my head, a sort of pressure, then thoughs labelling this pressure as irritation.

Other sounds, "external" sounds, appear the same, to come from inside my head, however there are thoughts that doubt it, specially when sounds are from car passing on the street, and their sound shows up gradually, or weakly at times. The thoughts describe the whole physics of sound waves being captured by the ear and so on.

I can't tell where the thoughts are coming from without resorting to some scientific theory, so it leaves me with, I don't where they come from, they just do, and I "hear" them in my head as if my voice was speaking them, however I can't trace them. The just seem to appear out of the blue, and vanish.

The thing with control is tricky. One "stream of thoughts" say that no, there is no, only thoughts showing up, even that thoughts that claim that there's an I, a core, or something like this are just thoughts playing tricks, while these same thoughts "playing" tricks sometimes seem more convincing, even if their range of control is minimal, of my attention.

I know that a raindrop does not block a river, however, the stream of thoughts claiming some measure of "free will", even if it is the will to direct my attention away from direct observation and towards other streams of thoughts still seems plausible. These thoughts are stubborn, and even if other subsequent thoughts say: "these are thoughts too, just thoughts, claiming to be able to do so, when in fact they can't, the "I" is just another thought, there's no such thing as free will show up, and they do show up, I just can't shrug off the "I" thought saying that it can at least direct my attention away from all else.

So, rather than controlling my actions, what seems obvious the "I" cannot, the control of attention, and where it is laid upon, specially when it is laid upon other streams of thoughts that neurotically disconnect me from any sensorial/awareness experience, still seems possible by the recurring stream of thoughts that call themselves "I", "me", "ego", etc...

[Devina]

The irritation that it brings is a thought, or series of thoughts, that talk about the irritation,

then a feeling in my head, a sort of pressure, then thoughs labelling this pressure as irritation.

Do you see how the first part is circular logic,
and the second part is a more accurate description of the experience?

Are thoughts capable of anything besides chatter?

Is a description of "irritation" irritation? Is talking about "free will" free will? Is the word "I" me?

I can't tell where the thoughts are coming from without resorting to some scientific theory, so it leaves me with, I don't where they come from, they just do, and I "hear" them in my head as if my voice was speaking them, however I can't trace them. The just seem to appear out of the blue, and vanish.

Good looking!

What makes it "your" voice, and not just another sound?

[diegoblues]

I see it now, when in "concept" land, things are more circular and far removed from actual experience. Thoughts only deliver chatter, nothing else.

The descriptions/ labels are never thing they are linked to. Thoughts about directing attention are not directing attention, even "attention" is just a concept and not the real attention.

What makes them my voice is a series of other thoughts. I've believed them for so long that I don't even question them anyomore. But they're just thoughts, claiming to be my voice, to speak for me.

My girlfriend had a dream last night, that I was dying from a strange disease, and even though she was in panic, I didn't even bother, I told her it was all right. Funny, the coincidence. I did have some hardships today regarding money, and feelings arised, they were labelled as negative, then they slowly went away, and there was calmness. Internal talk wasn't as desperate or as frantic as usual.

Soon the rest of the day unfolded and new things showed up, and now that the day is over, it looks like the "I" wasn't the author of the things that happened. They just happened. But "I" thoughts still showed up.

[Devina]

it looks like the "I" wasn't the author of the things that happened. They just happened. But "I" thoughts still showed up.

Oh, these don't go away. They're just seen for what they are.

I see it now, when in "concept" land, things are more circular and far removed from actual experience. Thoughts only deliver chatter, nothing else.

Okay then. Since thoughts aren't reliable proof of reality, let's completely ignore their chatter for this next exercise. Just look at the rest of experience - perceptions, feelings, colors, shapes, sounds...

The descriptions/ labels are never thing they are linked to...

Great, let's look at links. There's a thought about "me" - what is it linked to? In experience, how does that thing appear? Describe. You have been describing what happens during the search for yourself, which is good... but can you be found?

What makes them my voice is a series of other thoughts. I've believed them for so long that I don't even question them anyomore. But they're just thoughts, claiming to be my voice, to speak for me.

Who believes? Who has this history? Really, look for them in experience and see if they exist.

The story being told has been kept track of for a long, long time. In this moment, who does the story describe? Can anyone look at you and know who you are?

[diegoblues]

Sorry for the late reply, I'm still here! :)

Your comment brought to mind that links are thoughts too, and notions of me are thoughts connected to other thoughts. Some of these thoughts even imply previous "assumptions" which I can't be sure of, so believing them is a leap of faith that most often goes unquestioned.

There are thoughts about belief, about an "I" existing, but they're just a web of thoughts. The story describes a fictional character, a myriad of conceptual descriptions, and thoughts that link it to a physical body in an attempt to gain credibility.

Anyone who looks will see this physical body, and perhaps infer some things about character, personality, and stories they have with me, but these will be their thoughts, their perceptions. There's no way they can describe the I, because the I is a series of thought streams being presented to me. They can have their concept of who Diego is, but ultimately, that will be highly unreliable and will have much more to do with them, than with "me".

[Devina]

Your comment brought to mind that links are thoughts too, and notions of me are thoughts connected to other thoughts.

Sure, but how did it start?

There's no way they can describe the I, because the I is a series of thought streams being presented to me.

Presented to who?

Find this in experience, not in philosophy.

[diegoblues]

I can't know for sure, probably when I was a child and started to introject a sense of me and of separation from the rest of the world. My memory doesn't help me much in this regard, no separation trauma, no meaningful event... as far as I can go with my memory, the sense of I was there. It was much more rudimentary when I was a child of course.

The thoughts are just being presented, or perhaps being presented isn't a good term, they just show up. Then subsequent thoughts show up claiming the existence of an I, of personality, memories of my past, and so on. Somehow they still manage to trick me into believing there's a little core of I that is there, although I can't point where it is.

I had an interesting experience this night. I had a lucid dream, and in a certain moment, I had a big insight, in which I finally "got it", I realized that there's no I, and that I was being misled by my own thoughts. I had the feeling, in the dream, that I usually have when I have these great insights. I looked at things and there was no I, just perceptions, just experience.

I looked at things and saw that they were illusions, and that the sense of I was also an illusion, it was just thoughts.
After exploring the dream landscape for a while I eventually woke up. Before having this "insight" in the dream, I was already lucid, aware that I was dreaming. So the insight wasn't to realize that I was in a dream, but that there's no I, and that in "real life" things are almost like in dreams. My waking life character is just as illusory as the dream character.

I woke up, and even though I can remember most of it, and the feeling, it slipped me. I don't feel that my perception is the same as it was at the time. Somehow the dellusion "crawled back". But I'm happy, it was a very interesting insight.

[Devina]

Somehow they still manage to trick me into believing there's a little core of I that is there, although I can't point where it is.

Well, "I" is whatever is responsible for doing stuff, right? So just check back and see what's doing stuff.

"Tricks me into believing" keeps coming up. Can you describe what this experience looks like, step by step? What actually happens - is anything changed?