Looking for some guidance

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
That's interesting
I was just getting ready to post this response
Thanks
Robert

I am hesitant about writing at this moment. But I feel I should let you know where I am at. I am not done, probably missing the obvious. I have the sense that there is true freedom here somewhere.
I have been looking at this question for 2 days now. It has stirred up ton of feelings and beliefs but I have not seen the truth of this question yet.

Please, now look at the third question again. Can you think of some examples and describe how the process of choosing, acting, happens. For example simple things like, a) slowly raise your right arm over your head. In that simple process of raising the right arm or not, a decision seems to be made, or something happens (or doesn't). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? Can a chooser actually be found?

I cannot pinpoint the moment a choice is made and I cannot find a chooser.

Or, b) maybe you can find other simple examples from something you did today? I would like you if possible to give an almost mechanical description of what appears to be going on in one or two examples of choosing, acting, controlling or similar. As though I were a curious child and you were explaining it to me.

My advice don't worry about it. You really don't make any decisions. It just is what it is. Do whatever you feel like doing, maybe it will work out for you maybe it won't. When in doubt, guess. There's really nothing you can do about it anyway but whatever happens it's ultimately for your own good. Good luck, have a nice life.

Two other things: a) how do you feel about all of this now?

Right this moment, Worse. Now there is no me who can choose decide or do anything. (Not like he could before). But now there is also no god, beingness, universal energy, whatever who chooses decides or does anything about anything. In fact, look for anything and all you find is nothing. For right now this is it. Just this body and whatever is looking out through these eyes. If this awareness does not decide, choose or make anything happen, then what?

Told you I wasn't done yet. I left most of out the mental sarcastic anguish although some may have still seeped through.
This whole deciding, choosing, intending, acting and making things happen has been a real battle. I see there is no 'I' but there is something happening.
Probably not what you were hoping to hear, definitely not what I was hoping to write especially after 2 days.
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert

No problem, thanks for that.

The sense of trying to catch something, work it all out, and getting exasperated. Over and over. Have you been having a mind omelette?

I quite liked your answers to the exercise-type question, except that our 'curious child' didn't ask for advice, just a simple description.

Right this moment, Worse. Now there is no me who can choose decide or do anything. (Not like he could before). But now there is also no god, beingness, universal energy, whatever who chooses decides or does anything about anything. In fact, look for anything and all you find is nothing. For right now this is it. Just this body and whatever is looking out through these eyes. If this awareness does not decide, choose or make anything happen, then what?

a) Bold claims: what is your actual experience (not mental assumption) of 'no god'? of 'all you find is nothing'? Are these experiences or assumptions?
b) what is 'feeling worse'?

Told you I wasn't done yet

c) Who or what? Who or what is there to be done? or not done?
So you said before that there is no chooser. But there IS someone there who is not done yet?
What is there, besides just WHAT IS?

Please consider carefully.

Cheers

Mark

[ElPortal]

PS the b) question is in the sense of: what does it mean: "feeling worse"?

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark

I quite liked your answers to the exercise-type question, except that our 'curious child' didn't ask for advice, just a simple description.

I was not clear on a description so I went for advise. Figured it was better than telling them, Go ask your mother.

a) Bold claims: what is your actual experience (not mental assumption) of 'no god'? of 'all you find is nothing'? Are these experiences or assumptions?

It's the same as looking for the 'Robert'. Look for god and I get the same nothing. As look at anything it all leads back to nothing. I have glimpses of peace, glimpses of joy, even glimpses of 'divine love' as well as a realization here and there but mostly I got a whole lotta nothing.

b) what is 'feeling worse'?

Well this was just the feeling of 'being' disheartened and disappointed with all this nothingness and not seeing the answers clearly, while writing my responses.

c) Who or what? Who or what is there to be done? or not done?
So you said before that there is no chooser. But there IS someone there who is not done yet?
What is there, besides just WHAT IS?

This was in the context of not seeing clearly the answer to question number 3. Seeing that Robert is only a thought is the kingpin to the house of cards. Until I can see clearly the truth of deciding, choosing, controlling, making things happen then that house still stands and how can I be done.
It seems the only thing blocking this realization is what seems to block all realizations - thoughts/emotions. This question seems like the crux of the matter with a direct correlation to 'my circumstances'. By continually looking at this question and the thoughts, beliefs and emotions being stirred up - the house of cards must fall. That's my impression anyway.
Thanks
Robert

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
I think this guy summed it up pretty good

http://youtu.be/eB6oPN3Bz_Y

Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert

Ok, thanks for the video share. Let's do it! Only thing: don't turn practices, prescriptions, things that you do, into the new route - which then subtly separates 'you' from 'this' until later.

Life is simply happening. By itself. For no one. The mind hates this simple fact and loves to complicate things, trying to solve endless problems and keep the illusion of its own indispensability. This is how 'the game' continues. So will it be the mind's game now - or just Life as it is?

In your last post before the video link your responses are sometimes talking around the topics raised by the questions, but are not always actually answering the questions themselves. It's time to tighten up now.

1. Please revisit the last three questions posed, a) b) and c) and give answers to ALL parts, in the present tense, from present experience rather than mind activity/commentary/speculation, or explanations of why you wrote what you wrote before.

2. Also please do the exercise for the 'curious child' with a detailed description, as requested. Have a go!

3. Then I would like you to tell me what emotions are coming up with 'a direct correlation to "my circumstances"'.

Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark

Okay I will see if I can tighten it up and just answer all questions from the right here right now as clearly and honestly as I can.

I don't need any prescriptions or practices to subtly separate me from this. I have already been doing this my whole life. The whole idea of time. I need more time. Run out of time. Wasting time. Tomorrow, next month, next year. Goal setting and all that. Hell between my business and seeking that's all it ever has been.
I have a little of that right now. If I could just get this, if I could just see this then...

a) Bold claims: what is your actual experience (not mental assumption) of 'no god'? of 'all you find is nothing'? Are these experiences or assumptions?

My actual experience right now. Robert is an idea supported by a collection of thoughts and emotions. God is an idea supported by a collection of thoughts and emotions. I do not see a difference. Every idea is supported by a collection of thoughts and emotions. And what's behind all those thoughts and emotions, nothing. So what's left is just what is here right now and nothing else. There is nothing to hold onto. How does that feel. At this moment maybe despondent, numb. Certainly not anything enjoyable because that would mean I was expecting something and then who is the I that is expecting something good. I cannot be happy in the moment. You can't be happy for no reason.

b) what is 'feeling worse'?

This means what's the point, no hope no dreams no desires no joy no peace no purpose.

c) Who or what? Who or what is there to be done? or not done?

An idea.

So you said before that there is no chooser. But there IS someone there who is not done yet?

No

What is there, besides just WHAT IS?

Nothing

I think I'm regressing. Just another thought. My thoughts are kicking my ass. Just another. I'm never going to get this. Just another.

2. Also please do the exercise for the 'curious child' with a detailed description, as requested. Have a go!

I cannot do this one just yet.

3. Then I would like you to tell me what emotions are coming up with 'a direct correlation to "my circumstances"'.

Well, hopelessness, helplessness and intense dread. If there is such a thing. Someone has to deal with the reality of the situation, every day. Then the foolishness stupidity and regret of allowing myself to get into a truly dire situation. Then on the other hand looking back seeing I did everything I could think to do. I followed my heart the best I could. I could do no different. And now there is no one even here. Whats a non-existent person to do?

Choose, decide, intend, make something happen. So if that's not even possible then why try anything?

Okay so writing this out and seeing the feelings associated with these thoughts has left me surprisingly somewhat indifferent to those thoughts and feelings. I still seem to have some attachment to the story i am experiencing. Aversion might be a better word.

That's it for now. In the mean time I will be looking at the curious child response, time, this is it and choosing, deciding and making things happen.
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert

Excellent!

Yes, as you refer to at the end, this is only and all about looking and seeing. Nothing else.
As long as you are earnest, this guide will stay with you in it until seeing is happening in a sustained way.
It is largely about calling into question, examining, and peeling away layers (however many there are) of conditioning, assumptions, notions picked up along the way, second-hand concepts, until all that is left is ... WHAT IS! It is not drab: promise! If it feels drab it's because of some more concepts lodged in there in some crevice, standing in the way of the reality of it. Just relax from the 'if I could just get this, see that' thing: it's ego/mind/Life-playing-at-self stuff and only further excursions down the labyrinth. Let's stay in the moment, what's happening. That's where it's at.

Could you get a small notebook (if you haven't already) that you can carry around. Will be useful for noting things down, as part of our questions and exercises.

My actual experience right now. Robert is an idea supported by a collection of thoughts and emotions. God is an idea supported by a collection of thoughts and emotions. I do not see a difference. Every idea is supported by a collection of thoughts and emotions. And what's behind all those thoughts and emotions, nothing. So what's left is just what is here right now and nothing else. There is nothing to hold onto. How does that feel. At this moment maybe despondent, numb. Certainly not anything enjoyable because that would mean I was expecting something and then who is the I that is expecting something good. I cannot be happy in the moment. You can't be happy for no reason.

1. Ok, so Robert and 'god' are ideas, you say, with nothing behind their attached thoughts and emotions, and 'what's left is just what is here right now and nothing else.'
a) Please sit and notice what is happening right here and now. Along with the story of what is or isn't apparently happening, notice any sensations in the body: each time noticing several of the senses one by one.
b) Any feelings and emotions (and whilst you may notice what stories are attaching to the feelings and emotions, no need to follow those stories, just acknowledge that they are there, associated with the feelings and emotions, maybe even claiming to be the cause of them).
c) So stay with all these sensations, feelings and emotions for a while. Note down what you notice. Any motion, any change, for example?
d) Also, note whether any of them seem to be positive or negative. And then what do those labels of positive or negative mean? Are they anything more than commentary, stories?
e) Now note whether there seems to be any aliveness in any of this?

2. No number 2 this time, hehe.

3.

Then I would like you to tell me what emotions are coming up with 'a direct correlation to "my circumstances"'.

Well, hopelessness, helplessness and intense dread. If there is such a thing. Someone has to deal with the reality of the situation, every day. Then the foolishness stupidity and regret of allowing myself to get into a truly dire situation. Then on the other hand looking back seeing I did everything I could think to do. I followed my heart the best I could. I could do no different. And now there is no one even here. Whats a non-existent person to do?

Okay so writing this out and seeing the feelings associated with these thoughts has left me surprisingly somewhat indifferent to those thoughts and feelings. I still seem to have some attachment to the story i am experiencing. Aversion might be a better word.

Ok so like with the first exercise, looking now at your current situation I would like you to consider the feelings, aversions (which is just the same as attachment, except that attaching is to something NOT happening), dreads, hopes, expectations, hopelessness, guilt, worthlessness whatever comes up.
a) Can you invite in turn the intense dread, sense of hopelessness and/or whichever emotions which come up. Again, notice the associated stories or images just as long as they invoke the feelings, but then leave the story to one side and stay with the actual feeling, the emotion, the energy which comes up in your body.
b) Can you nurture it, welcome it, like a little child who wants a hug?
c) Can you actually ask it whether it has any other emotions it wants to bring up?
d) Can you just let the emotions and sensations be there, until they leave (understanding that they may come back later if they want too)?
e) Now can you notice whether this emotion invites a sense of 'self' to 'take care of business' or to take credit or to take blame, to own the emotions?
f) Can you actually find a 'self' there to accept that, besides the energies themselves? (If so, what does it feel like?)
If this gets emotional just let it! If it doesn't that's fine too. Whatever happens is ok.

As ever Robert, there are no tricks here, and no correct or wrong answers: just what comes up for you. If staying with your emotions until they subside means delaying your response to me, and writing a 'just checking in for today, will write later' post, that's fine.

That's quite a lot of looking! a)-e), a)-f), but at least there's no number 2.

Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark,
It's all there is
That's great
Muchas Gracias
Will post later
Thanks again
Robert

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
So I have been going through the exercises and here's what happening.
Day 1.
Sitting with just what is. Being aware of the different senses, different emotions. I notice the labels are like the book covers that tell you what type of story is inside.
I am seeing that positive and negative are just more labels created by the mind.
While looking at emotions such as hopelessness, dread etc. I have this idea. What if you were IT. All powerful, All knowing, All that there IS, Infinite, LOVE and you wanted to play a game so you could experience - Not That. If you knew it was only a game, what would you want to experience. Well what's the opposite - powerlessness, hopelessness, hate, lack, helpless, etc. etc. The only way to do that would be to pretend you forgot. Because how could All LOVE experience terror or surprise or hate or anything for that matter. With this perception I started easily inviting emotions up to be experienced. They were like divine gifts. What else, what else does Life want to experience. All is energy and experience and so it goes.

Day 2. I wake up with the same perception and start reviewing the questions. Looking at the emotions and the nothingness behind them. Looking to see what's there, looking for the aliveness. I think this Is going to be easy. The rest of the day is a blur. All is lost. Like frozen behind the wheel of a train heading toward its inevitable destruction. How the hell did It come to this. I am incapacitated. I am resigned, as much as possible, to total defeat and loss. I am so sorry for the people this has affected. There is no comfort to give, there is none to be found. How did it come to this. Death would be merciful.

And so it was as I wrote the post.
It seems I was immersed in that much longer than I would have preferred. I could not think straight. I could not find a door. I could not think of 'no self'. I could only be that. But what am I to do? There is a resignation that goes beyond likes and dislikes. Not peace, not joy, resignation.

Looking at this now - what happened? I was looking at the questions, easily inviting emotions up, the answers to all your questions were obvious. Then. Sitting in a place where there were no more pressing emotions I thought, "That's it, nothing else really there". This is Great - but I don't feel any different, I should feel something, as a matter of fact I don't feel anything at all. Shit. I thought if all these emotions were not blocking me that I would naturally feel more joy peace or love. Something. I think that's when it went to 'hell in a hand basket' as they say.

Nothing else to say at this moment. Right now there is just a sense of something, I don't know what it is. I feel neutral, blank, maybe 'lost', nowhere and nothing in particular is the best I could describe it. I will refocus in on the questions and try and stay it the right here and now.
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

Perfect!

Now, can you take a look through that last post (and the associated experiences). Can you notice how the present-moment sensations carry aliveness, and then an 'idea' pops in, even a seemingly positive one to start? Then, as things go on, can you see how the speculating takes us into the labyrinth of thought and robs at least some of that aliveness, replacing it with some confusion, dulling the feelings: 'numb', 'resignation' etc appear? From the mind's point of view this is great: it keeps it from giving up the driving seat, or so it thinks.

There is an opportunity now to redo those questions, just noting down ALL the answers 1 a)-e) and 3 a)-f)(question 3 looking at the emotions which are coming up with 'a direct correlation to "my circumstances"). Use a notebook, note down the sensations etc as requested, JUST reporting back from present experience, and without following those thoughts and speculations. Just an invitation....

Okay I will see if I can tighten it up and just answer all questions from the right here right now as clearly and honestly as I can.

Let's do it!

Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
I am right here
Will post later
Thanks
Robert

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
I was hoping to have responses by now
But I am in an unwritable place right now
I do have observations from last 2 days
And will pull it together and post when I wake up
Thanks
Robert

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
I will post as to where I am and the best I see right now.

Now, can you take a look through that last post (and the associated experiences). Can you notice how the present-moment sensations carry aliveness, and then an 'idea' pops in, even a seemingly positive one to start? Then, as things go on, can you see how the speculating takes us into the labyrinth of thought and robs at least some of that aliveness, replacing it with some confusion, dulling the feelings: 'numb', 'resignation' etc appear? From the mind's point of view this is great: it keeps it from giving up the driving seat, or so it thinks.

As I was reviewing my last post I noticed that there was an underlying 'energy' that was the same on both days. So Day 1 was a grand idea and I experienced insights, sensations and 'abilities' that go along with this grand idea. Day 2 the polar opposite and I experienced thoughts and sensations that go along with that. Looking back I can see the underlying sameness present in both days. Just 2 totally different experiences.
Now I am leary of all thoughts or ideas because it seems anytime I have a revelation or inspired idea it is somehow followed by the exact opposite. This seems to be a a major dilemma for doing any type of business. Think, don't think. IS there even a choice here. This has also happened with the questions. I seem to get insights (that last for a little while) next thing I was lost.

Note: On a number of different occasions, the writing, having to post seems to be what has helped break the 'spell' of the mind/emotion loop.

1. Ok, so Robert and 'god' are ideas, you say, with nothing behind their attached thoughts and emotions, and 'what's left is just what is here right now and nothing else.'
a) Please sit and notice what is happening right here and now. Along with the story of what is or isn't apparently happening, notice any sensations in the body: each time noticing several of the senses one by one.
b) Any feelings and emotions (and whilst you may notice what stories are attaching to the feelings and emotions, no need to follow those stories, just acknowledge that they are there, associated with the feelings and emotions, maybe even claiming to be the cause of them).
c) So stay with all these sensations, feelings and emotions for a while. Note down what you notice. Any motion, any change, for example?
d) Also, note whether any of them seem to be positive or negative. And then what do those labels of positive or negative mean? Are they anything more than commentary, stories?
e) Now note whether there seems to be any aliveness in any of this?

Here is what I have regarding this question.

b) the emotion seems inseparable from the thought. Which could be the thought of a single word or a sentence to convey the feeling. The story seems to be right there giving the reason for the emotion.
These thoughts seem to lead to others that are similar in how they feel. They seem to either draw too are attached too others that support that emotion. Some can even be on a completely different topic. Stories and commentaries seem to be built around these thoughts and feelings.

c) any motion any change? Staying with them there really doesn't seem to be a change in the actual energy behind the emotion. It does seem more like an energy that is colored by the thoughts surrounding it. Looking at a variety of emotions the actual energy seems to be exactly the same for all of them. If anything did seem to change it would be the attachment of the emotion to the thought.

So there seems to be this energy, we have thoughts, we have feelings. Positive negative like dislike good bad. The energy is what seems constant. Whether certain thoughts have feelings with them or the feelings produce certain thoughts I cannot tell. The stories seem secondary.
When looked at without the story the thought becomes more just the thought and the feeling seems to be the energy not the emotion.

Ok so like with the first exercise, looking now at your current situation I would like you to consider the feelings, aversions (which is just the same as attachment, except that attaching is to something NOT happening), dreads, hopes, expectations, hopelessness, guilt, worthlessness whatever comes up.
a) Can you invite in turn the intense dread, sense of hopelessness and/or whichever emotions which come up. Again, notice the associated stories or images just as long as they invoke the feelings, but then leave the story to one side and stay with the actual feeling, the emotion, the energy which comes up in your body.
b) Can you nurture it, welcome it, like a little child who wants a hug?
c) Can you actually ask it whether it has any other emotions it wants to bring up?
d) Can you just let the emotions and sensations be there, until they leave (understanding that they may come back later if they want too)?
e) Now can you notice whether this emotion invites a sense of 'self' to 'take care of business' or to take credit or to take blame, to own the emotions?
f) Can you actually find a 'self' there to accept that, besides the energies themselves? (If so, what does it feel like?)

When I sit and invite a feeling up the thought associated with it is what seems most obvious. When asking it if wants to bring anything else up it seems to start a natural 'downward' progression.

So the thought
I am never going to get this... Attracts or leads to
If I do, it's not going to solve anything anyway ...
Life has let me down AGAIN...
Something has to change..
Can't go on like this
What am I going to do
You have to do something
Totally unmotivated to do anything
I'm screwed, this really sucks
Just give it up
Nothing's going to change
I feel worse
Things are getting worse

All those thoughts pretty much have the I sense. When they are coming up there definitely seems to be a sense of self. Something that says, i am feeling this. I can't seem to nail down where this sensation is located. Vague at best but seemingly there. Allowing these thoughts and looking at them (not going with the story of them) seems to then culminate in the feeling of Despair. Just one of those thoughts doesn't seem to capture the fullness of the feeling.

Now looking at despair it definitely does not feel like your 'normal' despair. I think I am looking for something 'better' to take its place but there just seems to be a sort of resignation.

Just resigned to my fate
Nothing I can do anyway
Failed again
Loser
Idiot
I guess you just can't get it
I guess you just weren't good enough
So you might as well just suck it up and deal with it
That about sums it up

That now seems to culminate in a feeling of hopelessness. Worthlessness. That triggers anger. No real thoughts associated with that, just anger and a sense of futility.
Anger futility despair resignation hopelessness worthlessness. DEPRESSED.

So what can I say about all that. Hmm... Right now - They ALL seem like just words. What do they mean? Good question.

I will sit with this for now but I have been wanting to get something over to you. Your pointing has been indispensable. I really hope I am not off track.
Continually looking.
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

Thanks again for that long, detailed and earnest response.

Now, before going on, can we look further at the 'truly dire situation' and 'massively in debt on the verge of losing everything with no idea what to do next'. Can we look at the dread, despair and other emotions which this seems to bring up. The aversions and the attachments:-

a) I invite you to invite the horrendous-outcome vision to appear before you in the present moment, along with its most awful possible repercussions. Dare to note them down ...including people affected, those let down, those who 'need you' or whom 'you need', humiliation, ridicule, loss of home, prison, whatever comes up.

b) Allow yourself to sit with the major one(s) and the arising physical sensations, emotions, noticing also any resistance to consequences, or to the actual looking. Don't settle for resignation or numbness; these are hiding other things. Just be patient.

c) Being earnest for the truth, are you willing to say 'so be it' to all of this, or are you fighting to avoid any particular consequences at all costs? Stay with it.

d) Now, please look at the major attachment(s) and aversion(s) to any particular outcome or object/person (remember that aversion is just an attachment to something NOT happening). Notice what do these bonds actually consist of? Anything physical? A belief? A thought? A sense of being needed by, or of needing, something/someone? Stay with: what does that attachment actually consist of? Look into it.

e) Then ask: who is it who is attached to a certain outcome/person/object? Is there any more there than an energy? Who/what is there here to be attached?

f) So, who or what would be there to resist Life just happening as it happens?

g) Could it be OK just to acknowledge that it is all just happening as it happens, and to go along with the wild ride? To acknowledge that it always has been this way, in the 'success times' as well as the 'failure times', and that it always will be?

Please spend time on each of these, staying in the moment, and avoiding Thought-Labyrinth Solutions Inc. Note things down in your notebook, and let me know what transpires for each task. Try to keep answers tight with each question, like we said.

Cheers

Mark