Looking for guidance - Thanks :)

[Devina]

...I'm being lead, and there's no one authoring all my actions, thoughts and feelings.

"Led" is a loaded term - are rivers led? Weather patterns pushed? It's easy to see how things impersonally flow in the rest of the universe....

When I looked at the hands, there's doubt, some thoughts saying that the movement is just happening, with no interfence or author, but some thoughts like: " now I will clap my hands " followed by the clapping of the hands tricked me into thinking that there's an "I", saying: "Would you have clapped your hands if "I" didn't say so?".

Now we're getting somewhere. :)

So is the voice coming from an entity? Where?

Notice how deliberate the words are! "Okay, I'm going to... do... this... now!" Hahaha. So much concentration put into something that happens on its own otherwise. And notice the very subtle feeling of relief when the hand does what it was "told" to do! Very damning.

And what about the talking? Is it under control too?

What about the watching?

Good looking, keep it up! Experiment on the doubts; they can all be looked into until satisfied!

[Devina]

Another thing: people tend to confuse "paying close attention" with "control." But even paying close attention, can you figure out how to make a single muscle move? There's only guesses, and waiting to see if it happens. Likewise, the mind can only talk about stuff that's already happened and *guess* at what's coming. Watch!

[diegoblues]

It's more like a flow than being led, when I look back on it.

The voice just comes into awareness, I tend to think that it is coming from my brain, but there's no way to tell. It can be from my toe or anywhere outside my body. This voice is not under control, it only tries to make it look like it is, but it's not. It always comes after the other thoughts, actions or feelings are carried out.

The watching too, just happens. There's no way to direct. Some thoughts try to guess it, but it's never a perfect guess, and no causality is apparent.

The mind can be quick to talk right after something happens, or make some pretty good predictions about what will happen next, but inspecting closely, they're just that, predictions.

Today the thoughts about money and worrying about debts came back, and when they hit hard, the impression that the ever decreasing I is hidden in the trenches and doing some sort of casual work showed up again. But today they were brief, and the emotional impact was lower. I also had a small argument with my girlfriend, and she stayed quiet for a long time, something that used to upset me badly in relationships (other person being silent) but today it was fine.

There was a notion that only events are unfolding, that "I" couldn't have prevented it nor feeling too bad about would change anything. Like watching a bad scene on a movie, it is there, it's in the script, it will pass, feelings and thoughts will arise then move on.

I'll keep experimenting on doubts and into looking.
Thanks :)

[Devina]

Pretty cool, Diego!

Here's a really subtle one:
Can thoughts know anything? Or do they just sound like they know something?

The same works for feelings - do they know anything? Actually look into them to see if any meaning is embedded there, before words add it.

[diegoblues]

Thoughts can't know anything. Knowing itself is just thoughts claiming that there's knowledge of something.

Feeling are a little bit trickier, even for me, I'm not strong on feelings, but when they come, there are thoughts appearing that they do not know anything, nor do they have any meaning. But some feelings are quickly followed by labels: good, bad, angst, sadness and subsequent thoughts show up that elaborate on these labels.

I have noticed some gaps, when experience just flows and I practically forget what happened, no thoughts claiming authorship, but then these thoughts I appear. I'm tracking them "frame-by-frame", it helps me not to fall for their traps.

Thanks :)

[Devina]

I'm tracking them "frame-by-frame", it helps me not to fall for their traps.

Great! But who could fall for it? Frame by frame, is there anyone constant? Is there a repository for an inner child, adult, ego, what-have-you - in actual experience?

[diegoblues]

There are thoughts now that tracking frame-by-frame is also a distraction. To be able to do so, there's a need to have an observer, but then again, there's no observer, just thoughts claiming to be one. I don't think there's a repository, just thoughts that come and go, and can claim to be or leave the impression of a repository existing.

[Devina]

There are thoughts now that tracking frame-by-frame is also a distraction. To be able to do so, there's a need to have an observer, but then again, there's no observer, just thoughts claiming to be one.

Well, what does observing look like? You mentioned a camera - is there a camera and a scene, or just a scene with a tripod in it? Where's the "audience" for the movie?

[diegoblues]

It's a "first-person" perspective -- I can't see the camera, " I am" the camera, the physical world as I see it is the set, the scenes are the everyday occurrences. There's no audience other than the "camera-man", which is a recurring pattern of thoughts that claim to be the "I" observing the shooting.

[Devina]

If no camera can be seen, why assume there's a camera? Look at what's actually happening - is there anything more than the set?

[diegoblues]

That's good, there's no camera... just a set... the "Diego" is just another piece from the set. However, there's still the thought of some sort of awareness, that even without a camera, can witness the set. It tends to associate with the Diego figure though. This is association is hard to shake off. :(

[Devina]

...some sort of awareness, that even without a camera, can witness the set. It tends to associate with the Diego figure though. This is association is hard to shake off. :(

Well, look at it from the perspective of what awareness can do. Can it own Diego's car? Drive it? Cogitate? In fact, does it do anything at all?

[diegoblues]

It can only be aware. Nothing else. All other things happen by themselves.

I know intellectually that it doesn't, but then again comes a thought or stream of thoughts saying that "I" don't really get it, and that some other thoughts that say that they can influence future actions.

Part of me knows that they can't, but I simply can't see it. It's an intellectual understanding, working hard to believe, not knowing. And back to being stuck...

[Devina]

It can only be aware. Nothing else. All other things happen by themselves.

Where does "awareness" stop and "other things" begin?

Part of me knows that they can't, but I simply can't see it. It's an intellectual understanding, working hard to believe, not knowing. And back to being stuck...

Reality's right there no matter what your philosophy is - so don't believe anything, just look. Check and see. Is there a self at the center of experience?

[diegoblues]

I think the only spot where awareness ends, currently, to my experience, is to the "I" thought, or rather, stream of thoughts. The thoughts are now more "accepting" of the idea of being just a passive observer, but still, a observer nonetheless. The eyes behind the camera.

I unfortunately do have thoughts that tell me that there is a self at the center of the experience. A passive observer, who tries to claim to be author of things it hasn't done. But still there. I'm stuck, I don't know how to check and see, whichever approach I take, I loop back to this passive observer who tries to claim authorship of things it does not do.