Hannah, please could you be my guide

[LosingMyReligion]

Hi, I have been looking for some time and feel I am moving towards a true realisation that there is no self. This is something I have understood intellectually for some Time, but the truth is somehow elusive. Having read some of the threads I think you would be an effective guide if you would be willing to assist in this journey. Yours hopefully - Jonny

[Hannah B-T]

Hi Jonny.

First off- What timezone are you in?- I am GMT+1 - UK.

I would be very happy to guide you through this process.
Firstly could you confirm you have read this post and the disclaimer here:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=221

And that you agree to these 'groundrules':

1- 100% honesty- by this I mean- no censoring, no telling me what you think I want to hear, or repeating what you have heard from somewhere else.

2-That you strive to only report as closely as you can your direct experience right now when answering my questions. By this i mean what you can find right here and now, through the perception of your senses, not conceptual ideas, speculation or things from teachings you may have read or seen. To aid this i request you hold off reading spiritual books or watching such content online just whilst we are in this dialogue.

3-That we both agree to post daily, unless we let each other know why that is not possible at that time. I usually can't post more than once per 24 hours due to work commitments, but momentum is really important for this process.

If that's all ok-

when you say you have been 'looking for some time', what do you mean by that?, in this dialogue i will be using the word 'looking' in quite a specific way.

What do you mean when you say 'understood intellectually'? What do you think this 'true realisation' of no self would be like, any ideas, expectations or fears come up around that?

It's really helpful to all get those laid out on the table as it were straight off the bat.

looking forward to exploring with you
x

[LosingMyReligion]

First off- What timezone are you in?- I am GMT+1 - UK.

I am also in the UK

....And that you agree to these 'groundrules':

I have read the disclaimer and agree to the groundrules as stated.

when you say you have been 'looking for some time', what do you mean by that?, in this dialogue i will be using the word 'looking' in quite a specific way.

I mean looking for the self with an intention to see through the illusion of a real self. I have tried this recently with another guide on UL with some success, but a true realisation proved elusive. (Ref HealingHands and Biisuto)

What do you mean when you say 'understood intellectually'? What do you think this 'true realisation' of no self would be like, any ideas, expectations or fears come up around that?

It makes complete sense that there can be no self, and in looking for the self there have been moments when I have been awed and alarmed that the 'me' I always took for granted was not there. A true realisation would be simply KNOWING this to be true without doubts or questions, in the same way that when I inhale, I know that air will enter my lungs without thought or enquiry. It is such a self evident truth that it does not bear examination.
I hope that in seeing through the illusion of self that other illusions related to the self will also fall away like self consciousness, anxiety about future uncertainties, finding it difficult to exist in the present.
My main concern is that I am just developing a belief, like believing in a deity, which may seem utterly true to me but is clearly not the case in the context of a multitude of conflicting and equally precious beliefs in the minds of others. In other words I am just afraid that what I may come to believe is true, may not be.

looking forward to exploring with you

Likewise.



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[Hannah B-T]

I have tried this recently with another guide on UL with some success, but a true realisation proved elusive. (Ref HealingHands and Biisuto)

Great stuff.

Thanks for letting me know that, but i'm not going to read the old thread. Let's start fresh and just hone in on what the apparent problem seems to be here.

in looking for the self there have been moments when I have been awed and alarmed that the 'me' I always took for granted was not there.

In all the looking, actually in the looking that has happened so far, have you at any point found such a thing as a self?...
Look again now, just look, like i'd just asked you 'is there a cellphone in your pocket?' As simple as that.

Can you find such a thing as a self?

A true realisation would be simply KNOWING this to be true without doubts or questions, in the same way that when I inhale, I know that air will enter my lungs without thought or enquiry. It is such a self evident truth that it does not bear examination.

what are doubts and questions- thoughts right?.
So it sounds like you are expecting certain thoughts to stop occuring?
How would that happen?
Is there a controller or thinker of thoughts?

I hope that in seeing through the illusion of self that other illusions related to the self will also fall away like self consciousness, anxiety about future uncertainties, finding it difficult to exist in the present.

Are these expectations any more than fantasy ideas? Do they matter?
If i told you awakening would not change anything whatsoever, would there still be interest in pursuing it?

regarding finding difficulties existing in the present...
take a look right now and describe exactly to me what there is in that experience that doesn't fit the label 'present'?

My main concern is that I am just developing a belief,

what is a belief in direct experience?

[LosingMyReligion]

In all the looking, actually in the looking that has happened so far, have you at any point found such a thing as a self?...
Look again now, just look, like i'd just asked you 'is there a cellphone in your pocket?' As simple as that.

Whilst looking I have not been able to find a self. There are feelings which feel like 'me', but looking at these the self cannot be found in them. It is funny, because although I know the me isn't there, looking again as you suggest, gives rise to the thought that the me is right here (here being just behind the base of the sternum). But focusing the the feeling of 'me' seems to flee between the lungs. Without going off an anatomy mystery tour, suffice it to say that wherever I try to track it down it seems elude me.

Can you find such a thing as a self?

No. I cannot find it. It feels as if it should be there but it isn't.

what are doubts and questions- thoughts right?.
So it sounds like you are expecting certain thoughts to stop occuring?
How would that happen?
Is there a controller or thinker of thoughts?

When beliefs change, thoughts change with them, at least this has always seemed to be the case. I see the error of assuming that particular thoughts will change in particular ways if a belief change I haven't yet experienced comes about.

Are these expectations any more than fantasy ideas? Do they matter?
If i told you awakening would not change anything whatsoever, would there still be interest in pursuing it?

These are just fantasies, and although they are outcome that wold be very nice, if there is no me then why would these things matter. Here in the present they have no meaning.
Even if awakening changes nothing at all, would I still be interested in pursuing it - that is a good question. If it changes nothing then is there any purpose to it? If it doesn't even change my perception then all that means is that I am already awake - being awake is what I know and understand right now.... hang on a second - it feels like there is something in that - perhaps there is no 'being awake' - just a different way of looking at things. I suddenly feel very present and free, similar to previous glimpses but lighter. So in answer to the question, no, but only because 'it' cannot be pursued.

regarding finding difficulties existing in the present...
take a look right now and describe exactly to me what there is in that experience that doesn't fit the label 'present'?

Sorry, I am laughing at this point. I sounds so absurd to say I have difficulty existing in the present when all that is happening is that I am in the present observing a thought about being anxious that it is hard to exist in the present. It is just a thought, and not a very clever one.

what is a belief in direct experience?

It is just recognising that things can be observed in the present as they are. I guess that is self evident. it is not really a matter of belief, it is just paying attention to what is perceived right now.

Thanks for the questions Hanna,

Jonny




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[Hannah B-T]

But focusing the the feeling of 'me' seems to flee between the lungs. Without going off an anatomy mystery tour, suffice it to say that wherever I try to track it down it seems elude me.

hahaha 'anatomy mystery tour'- enjoyed that.

Let's stay with the body for a minute

what is the label 'body' pointing to in direct experience?
is the body experiencing things, or is the body experienced? or is it experience?

- look carefully where those different words might be pointing to and give a response which one feels most comfortable to say.

Is there any sense of inside/outside in the current experience?

There are feelings which feel like 'me', but looking at these the self cannot be found in them.

how would you describe these 'feelings' in direct experience?
are they sensations?
let me know if the 'anatomy mystery tour' seems to settle on a conclusion or sticking point. Bring it to the table.

No. I cannot find it. It feels as if it should be there but it isn't.

is that ok?

you didn't answer this one directly:
Is there a controller or thinker of thoughts?

I am in the present observing a thought about being anxious that it is hard to exist in the present.

is that what's really happenning?
is there a 'you' here that's the 'observer of thoughts'?
take a close look at that. describe this 'observer' to me.

it is just paying attention to what is perceived right now.

is there anything 'paying attention' or not?

[LosingMyReligion]

Let's stay with the body for a minute

what is the label 'body' pointing to in direct experience?

Anything that feels like the body arises within the skin - the barrier between the outside and inside. If a sensation is detected that results from a stimulus inside the skin (or lining of the gut) then it could be labelled as perceived in the 'body'.

is the body experiencing things, or is the body experienced? or is it experience?

My 'gut' feeling is that 'the body is experience' feels most comfortable to say. Much of my reaction to thoughts is visceral, the sensations of emotion arise in the body. So what I perceive as experience is just a process going on somewhere that is approximated by the nervous system. I feel a bit light headed thinking about it. My habit is to assume that the body experiences things, but all I really see (or feel) are sensations that have meaning because of a map of where and what stuff should be (what the sensations mean) - another thought. Thinking about it now there is experience of sensation, so it is tempting to say that 'the body is experienced', but surely it can only be experienced by me, and if I try to find the experinsor ('me') I can't. Experience just happens.

- look carefully where those different words might be pointing to and give a response which one feels most comfortable to say.

Is there any sense of inside/outside in the current experience?

That is a good question. As I think about it the sense of inside and outside diminishes. Realising that all the sensations are just happening, whether it is the taste of coffee, the image of a couple talking or the stiring warmth in my stomach. Again I feel awed and excited. I am also noticing thay the sensations only exist when they are given attention.

how would you describe these 'feelings' in direct experience?

The feelings are thoughts associated with sensations which in turn lead to actions (a movement in the stomach or diaphragm) that gives rise to sensation which triggers thoughts. It just goes round and round. I am noticing this right now.

let me know if the 'anatomy mystery tour' seems to settle on a conclusion or sticking point. Bring it to the table.

This is just it, the sense of me presents as a feeling which I can locate, but in looking at it the feeling slips to another place. No matter how long this goes on the 'me' isn't there. It isn't there, and I conclude that either it can't be seen or it doesn't exist. In fact it can't be perceived by any sense, 'it' makes no sense, there is no reason to suppose 'I' exist apart from the initial belief. I feel suite upset.

is that ok?

Not quite ok, but settling into a sense of mild relief. Apologies, I also feel a bit angry. It is passing. It is ok, it is just the way it is.

you didn't answer this one directly:
Is there a controller or thinker of thoughts?

No, thoughts just arise. By looking, a 'thought controller' is absent. It is just like chasing the nonexistent me.

- Second half to follow in a bit, having a bit of Tapatalk trouble -


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[LosingMyReligion]

I am in the present observing a thought about being anxious that it is hard to exist in the present.

is that what's really happenning?
is there a 'you' here that's the 'observer of thoughts'?
take a close look at that. describe this 'observer' to me.

This is a bit frustrating as I feel like I ought to be noticing that the observer doesn't exist. Yet surely the act of observing implies the existence of the observer.OK, the lightbulb comes on, there can be no experience of the observer in direct experience, sensations are just observed. Whatever I thought it was (and I have never given it that much thought!) was just fabrication - just that - a thought.

it is just paying attention to what is perceived right now.

is there anything 'paying attention' or not?

NO! There is nothing paying attention, there is just attention, just thoughts.

[Hannah B-T]

Beautiful looking.

let's sleep on it, see what unfolds i'll check back for any new sticking points tomorrow. keep looking at inside/outside, that can really be a tricky one, but boy, is it worth taking a good look at!

there is no reason to suppose 'I' exist apart from the initial belief. I feel suite upset.

Give me more on the 'upset' or angry part if needed...

this is so mindbogglingly ordinary and simple when it's seen, it can be a total let-down for the thought content. Just nothing for it to get's it's teeth into as it were...

[LosingMyReligion]

keep looking at inside/outside, that can really be a tricky one, but boy, is it worth taking a good look at!

Doing this has been almost spooky today. In my work as a manual therapist it was interesting to simply be in the present whilst treating a and notice what was happening 'inside' and 'outside'. There is no distinction. Whilst moving the patient awareness was with 'them', moving with the intention of the technique. At this moment I am in the writing. Still aware of the visceral, neither inside nor outside. The distinction is a thought - a map, a way of demarcating the illusion of 'me'. This has helped solve part of a mystery for me - if there is no 'me' why would we ever come to believe in it? The body helps create the illusion by containing the chemical ecosystem which holds the organs of sensation. Anything inside this is naturally seen as the inside and it would be easy never to realise that the idea of awareness is neither contained or defined by the "body". In fact, in direct experience, the body is just a thought.

there is no reason to suppose 'I' exist apart from the initial belief. I feel suite upset.
Give me more on the 'upset' or angry part if needed...

It feels like ? I have been in shock a for the whole of yesterday and today and not in a good way. Not sure if this is a good sign, but the cloud is passing. I am prone to SAD, so it is not unusual to go through dark moments at this time of year, there may be nothing in this. What is more interesting is that the sensations could just be watched. Now there are sensations of disappointment , but also a sense of peace. Is this it?

this is so mindbogglingly ordinary and simple when it's seen, it can be a total let-down for the thought content. Just nothing for it to get's it's teeth into as it were...

So this doesn't end by floating off on a cloud into Nirvana?? Damn - that's a shame ;). Even if this is it (ie - there isn't an 'it'), noticing a quiet sensation of truth. A sensation of thoughts and nothing.

[Hannah B-T]

The distinction is a thought - a map, a way of demarcating the illusion of 'me'.

yes, it feels here just like a misperception.

The body helps create the illusion by containing the chemical ecosystem which holds the organs of sensation. Anything inside this is naturally seen as the inside and it would be easy never to realise that the idea of awareness is neither contained or defined by the "body".

Hold the phone!
This is pure story. not a problem, but just checking it can be seen this is a just a new conceptual story about what is being seen. Thoughts saying 'oh yes, i understand that now, stick it in a box mark 'done''
Is it important or relevant what the thoughts say about this?

looking at direct experience is always so much cleaner and simpler than all that...

In the direct experience, right now is there such a thing as
inside and outside?

it would be easy never to realise that the idea of awareness is neither contained or defined by the "body"

Like here. What's this 'idea of awareness'. Are you describing a direct experience labelled 'awareness'? Doesn't sound like it.
try to report what the current direct experience of this 'awareness' is. (if there is anything like that going on, or just say if it's not!)
Not ideas/concepts from what has been read or heard.
Remember the ground rules.

In fact, in direct experience, the body is just a thought.

The word 'body' is a thought, fine-
But what is it pointing to outside of the content of the thoughts? Take a look again and break that down for me.

What is more interesting is that the sensations could just be watched. Now there are sensations of disappointment , but also a sense of peace. Is this it?

You tell me. What's 'it'? Lay out any remaining expectations (or new ones lol!) that are popping up. No matter
how petty, weird or silly/funny they might appear now. Let's take a fresh look at them.

So this doesn't end by floating off on a cloud into Nirvana?? Damn - that's a shame ;).

Just like that one :)

This dialogue is just looking at a very specific issue encapsulated by this phrase-

Is there a separate self in any way shape or form? Has there ever been?

xx

[LosingMyReligion]

This is pure story. not a problem, but just checking it can be seen this is a just a new conceptual story about what is being seen. Thoughts saying 'oh yes, i understand that now, stick it in a box mark 'done''
Is it important or relevant what the thoughts say about this?

lol -that is all it is - thanks for pointing it out, it is not important. How easy it is to slip into story. There is a sense of relief and frustration.

looking at direct experience is always so much cleaner and simpler than all that...
In the direct experience, right now is there such a thing as inside and outside?

NO, just sensations, sounds, images, touch input, feelings. It doesn't seem to make sense. I am just looking and noticing.

try to report what the current direct experience of this 'awareness' is. (if there is anything like that going on, or just say if it's not!) Not ideas/concepts from what has been read or heard.
Remember the ground rules.

Right, here and now awareness is something that I can't get hold of. In trying to give awareness attention - it isn't working. impossible to find where it is just what is being done. In concentrating there is just silence, just nothing.

The word 'body' is a thought, fine-
But what is it pointing to outside of the content of the thoughts? Take a look again and break that down for me.

Just feelings - primal, visceral, spontaneous feelings. pinching the hand gives a brief sensation of pain, there is a stirring in the stomach, a quieter sense of the heart beating. It is what I have been used to thinking of as 'my' body. Just experiencing 'it' now, 'it' does not feel well defined - there a sense of oneness with everything that is being sensed. I feel the seat I am sitting on, but it is not clear if the sensation is the seat itself or the skin and muscles being compressed. It is a sense of sitting that is neither inside or outside of the body. The same is true of the feet on the carpet. They are sensations associated with the body, but in this direct experience the body limits is not clear.

You tell me. What's 'it'? Lay out any remaining expectations (or new ones lol!) that are popping up. No matter
how petty, weird or silly/funny they might appear now. Let's take a fresh look at them.

OK, I am getting an increasing sense of being at peace, and am hoping that once we have 'arrived' that this will persist. There is determination to clearly recognise the illusion of a separate self and frustration that the realisation is elusive. Maybe it is just a question of looking and looking - this is OK, if you are OK to continue I will go on as long as it takes. The point of this is to see the truth and that is all that matters. Whatever it is.

This dialogue is just looking at a very specific issue encapsulated by this phrase-
Is there a separate self in any way shape or form? Has there ever been?

There simply isn't, that is clear. Looking again for a suspicion that there may be some separate self just hiding somewhere, even that can't be found.That is it, there never has been. Looking at feelings that I always thought were me - the feeling just dissolves or changes - it is just sensation, the me was never there.

There a bit more than this Hannah but it was collapsing into another story - and a boring one. Thanks for sticking with this - Jonny

[Hannah B-T]

NO, just sensations, sounds, images, touch input, feelings. It doesn't seem to make sense. I am just looking and noticing.

This is completely and utterly not about stuff 'making sense' (i.e there being a nice neat conceptual story about it)

It's just about looking and seeing what experience is.

Right, here and now awareness is something that I can't get hold of. In trying to give awareness attention - it isn't working. impossible to find where it is just what is being done. In concentrating there is just silence, just nothing.

Ok. this is what I expected as a response and it's just how it should be. However the scope of this dialogue is not to go into what might be happening here- but let's just hone it down to this-

Is there a sense of aliveness?
A sense of 'being'- do those phrases work?
If so- is that sense contained, limited or 'personal' in any way?

Just feelings - primal, visceral, spontaneous feelings.

i prefer sensations but i that's just semantics.
Notice here how you've expressed how these sensations just arise and pass away. That's good to see.
Can you find me any sensations/feelings that aren't like that
any at all?

I feel the seat I am sitting on, but it is not clear if the sensation is the seat itself or the skin and muscles being compressed. It is a sense of sitting that is neither inside or outside of the body.

yes!
no sitter and seat. Just sitting
no feet and floor. just sesansations labelled standing.
Look at all the other senses in this way as well. Really get down and dirty with it.

Se-er and seen
or just seeing?
hearer and heard
or just hearing?
smeller and smelt?
or just smelling?
taster and taste?
or just tasting?

experiencer and experience?
or just experiencing?

don't let the thoughts make assumptions about this.
Take a fresh look.

OK, I am getting an increasing sense of being at peace, and am hoping that once we have 'arrived' that this will persist.

What do you mean here by peace?
Looking at the above in this post, can it be seen that all sensations and thoughts are arising, without a thinker, a feel-er, a controller.
So where does that leave hope?
What is hoping?
what is wanting peace?
what would 'persisting' look like? do you mean permanent?
See my above question about sensations and add in thoughts as well...
Get real honest.
Can anything whatsoever really meeting the criteria -persistent, let alone permanent be found in experience?
Or is that just part of a story about past and future?

that the realisation is elusive

No. it's not. It's staring you straight in the face. It's mindbogglingly simple. It's closer than close.

Is there a separate self in any way shape or form? Has there ever been?


There simply isn't, that is clear. Looking again for a suspicion that there may be some separate self just hiding somewhere, even that can't be found.That is it, there never has been. Looking at feelings that I always thought were me - the feeling just dissolves or changes - it is just sensation, the me was never there.

oh look. There it is. ^^^^^^^

;)
xx

[LosingMyReligion]

Is there a sense of aliveness?
A sense of 'being'- do those phrases work?
If so- is that sense contained, limited or 'personal' in any way?

Yes, both a sense aliveness and being, or even a living sense of being (if that makes sense) There is a sense boundlessness and no, there is nothing personal, it is just still and there is a sense of wholeness. Again it is a bit disconcerting but that passes. Other sensations come and go.

Notice here how you've expressed how these sensations just arise and pass away. That's good to see.
Can you find me any sensations/feelings that aren't like that
any at all?

Just this sense of wholeness - which is such a simple feeling it doesn't bear much description. other sensations only noticeable because it is changing, even the whistle of tinitus or the hum of the computer, sensation without form or location, sitting. The words emerging with the tapping - no author!

no sitter and seat. Just sitting
no feet and floor. just sesansations labelled standing.
Look at all the other senses in this way as well. Really get down and dirty with it.

Se-er and seen
or just seeing?

Just experiencing the light and shapes, the picture is just there. Attention drawn without choosing. There is a slight fright seeing one object behind another as a continuous field of vision. Somehow it looks flat. Just patterns, colour and light. It is all just being seen.

hearer and heard
or just hearing?

The tapping and noises, reacting to my wifes voice. The reaction happens, there is no reactor. Listening without a listenor.

smeller and smelt?
or just smelling?

Breathing in there is the experience of the soapy smell of my hands, it is powerful but not possible to locate where the sense of smelling is happening. Again it is almost as if it is in chest - arising as a feeling. Trying to locate the actual smell sensation is not possible, there is no smeller. The smelling has a sense of movement and impermanence, rising with the sense of breathing in and fading.

taster and taste?
or just tasting?

Just imagining chocolate melting in the tongue gives a clear sense of the rich coco taste and sweet creamy texture - and this is just a thought. The tasting is nothing more than a sensation, it disappears as soon as the thought is gone. There was no taster - it was just experienced. Just tasting.

experiencer and experience?
or just experiencing

?

Just experiencing! Thinking about any exp[experience, ll I am doing here and now is experiencing remembering. Thinking about brushing my teeth earlier today is just experiencing. In the present there is no experience. Looking for the experiencer it cannot be found. The tapping on the keyboard is just happening, the sensation of plasticness. There is no experienser, only experiencing. No smiler - just smiling, no understander - just understanding.

What do you mean here by peace?

Experiencing a quietness that accompanies noticing sensations change and recede.

Looking at the above in this post, can it be seen that all sensations and thoughts are arising, without a thinker, a feel-er, a controller.

Yes.

So where does that leave hope?
What is hoping?
what is wanting peace?
what would 'persisting' look like? do you mean permanent?

Hope is just a sensation, as is a desire for peace. These are just illusions. It is still rather pleasant to experience a sense of peace - but a sensation is all it is. It does seem quite funny now to think of hoping for a sensation. The same can be said of need, or any desire.

See my above question about sensations and add in thoughts as well...
Get real honest.
Can anything whatsoever really meeting the criteria -persistent, let alone permanent be found in experience?
Or is that just part of a story about past and future?

No - persistence is an illusion. The nature of experience is that it changes. Experiencing is just noticing passing sensations. Permanence is an illusion.

No. it's not. It's staring you straight in the face. It's mindbogglingly simple. It's closer than close.

Hanna, this is simple. I am doing it all the time, it was just a question of noticing.

Is there a separate self in any way shape or form? Has there ever been?

There simply isn't, that is clear. Looking again for a suspicion that there may be some separate self just hiding somewhere, even that can't be found.That is it, there never has been. Looking at feelings that I always thought were me - the feeling just dissolves or changes - it is just sensation, the me was never there.

oh look. There it is. ^^^^^^^

Thankyou :)

[Hannah B-T]

Welcome home!

I don't see any doubting or confused thoughts, things seem pretty clear in your last post, please do let me know if that changes and further pointing is needed/requested but that's also what the LU community groups on facebook are good for too.

At this stage I suggest getting your response to the standard questions we use here-(don't know if that would be 'again' as didn't read the first thread!).

Then i'll then show this dialogue to some of the other guides and see if any further questions emerge.

Much love
x