Guidance requested

[preetybird]

Hello,

I recently stumbled across LU and am very interested in being guided. I'm 25, have just a bit of experience with meditation, and have been mulling over existential-y questions for quite some time now. I'm familiar with non-dual philosophies but haven't dived deeply into any traditions or practices. However, I feel as if LU's approach is right for me, and I'm committed to doing what it takes to wake up.

Many thanks in advance to anyone who is willing to guide me!

Gratefully,
Preet

[mikenew]

Hi Preet,

I'd love to work with you

There are a few ground rules, please respond to confirm:
1. You agree to post at least once a day.
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to
3. Responses require your utmost honesty
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660


Once you have confirmed, lets begin ....

Can you tell me how you came here?
Can you tell me what you expect from this process?
What you think the gate is and what you think you will be like after?

Are you in the flow?

Look forward to working with you. Mike xx

[preetybird]

Hi Mike,

It's nice to e-meet you. Thank you for volunteering to guide me!

I confirm that I understand and will follow the ground rules.

Can you tell me how you came here?

At some point as a teenager I started to get really curious about different cultures and religions, the nature of the physical universe, what I should do in life, the meaning of it "all", etc. I read several related books, once took a fascinating "Introduction to Eastern Philosophy" class, and generally mulled over this kind of stuff over the past few years. I had heard the word "enlightenment" in a few different places, but I always held onto the impression that it was a mysterious state that I wouldn't ever reach.

But, while internet surfing a couple of months ago, I decided to check out the "/r/enlightenment" subreddit on reddit.com. After browsing a bit I saw someone recommend Jed McKenna's Spiritual Enlightenment: The Damnedest Thing as a starting point. I gobbled it up and came away convinced that enlightenment was possible. But Jed's "spiritual autolysis" process seemed daunting, and I promised myself that I'd get to it someday haha.

A few weeks later I went back to /r/enlightenment on a whim and came across a post in which someone described his awakening in vivid detail. That same user characterized Jed McKenna's books as entertaining but not all too useful, and he recommended LU as a truly useful resource. After reading through the LU forum a bit and the Gateless Gatecrashers book, I felt that LU's approach was right for me.

Can you tell me what you expect from this process?

I expect that at the end I will perceive myself and my surroundings differently. I will experience some kind of change, even though I don't know what it'll be exactly. I also hope that my life will change in some concrete ways like gaining wisdom on what do in life, my problems falling away, my self-esteem improving, my relationships improving, and just generally feeling content and blissful.

What you think the gate is and what you think you will be like after?

I think passing through the gate is a metaphor for a perception shift that is followed by a realization of some sort "switching on". After passing through I think I will actually feel what I intellectually believe I am: an entity that is not separate from everything else. I think I'll be like I was before, just aware of something that was previously hidden to me. Going back to expectations: part of my motivation for trying to crash the gate is my hope that the awareness will lead to concrete changes in how I interact with myself and the world.

[mikenew]

Thanks Preet.


Let's look at 'I' ...
Right now, what does ‘I’ point to?
What is this ‘me’?
What does ‘I’, ‘me’ refer to?

What comes up when it is read that there absolutely no "you" in any way, shape or form, there never has been, nor is there, nor will there ever be?


Love

Mike

[preetybird]

Thanks for posing these questions Mike. I'll be at an all-day event today but I'll try my best to get back to you tonight or first thing tomorrow morning (US-California time).

[mikenew]

Great Preet.

I'm in Australia and we are 19 hours ahead of LA.

Love

Mike

[preetybird]

19 hours, wow! I’m glad we were able to connect despite the distance (thank you internet!).

Let's look at 'I' ...
Right now, what does ‘I’ point to?
What is this ‘me’?
What does ‘I’, ‘me’ refer to?

Such a seemingly simply question, and yet I’m finding it difficult to answer without sounding circular (“I points to … me! … duh …”)! Let me try again, haha:

‘I’ and ‘me’ seem to point to the voice in my head (contained in this body, which appears to have discrete borders, such as the border between my skin and the air) that is constructing these sentences and directing my fingers to type them out. When I take a sip of my hot tea and it scalds my tongue, the pain seems to be experienced by this ‘I’. When I look up and see another person sitting at a table, I feel as if ‘I’ am experiencing the sight (and making judgments, internal commentary, etc). It’s as if everything around me is being experienced by this central figure. My thoughts and emotions (such as a slight frustration with the fact that I’m having trouble expressing my answer to your question) seem to arise from this central figure.

When my eyes are open, everything behind my visual field feels like the ‘I’. And when my eyes are closed, the rise and the fall of my chest seems to be experienced by the ‘I’ as well. But I know that I am a different person, personality-wise, when I’m around different people in different situations. It is the same physical body experiencing those different events (and even that must be an illusion, given that the body is constantly changing, shedding the old and growing the new), but the thoughts differ from one event to the other. Could ‘I’ be the sum total of my ever-changing body, thoughts, perceptions, and more, all of which interact with my surroundings in real-time? And if my surroundings are constantly changing, then ‘I’ too must be constantly changing … it is most definitely not one thing, and more like a fluid that flows to take the shape of the vessel that it finds itself in.

What comes up when it is read that there absolutely no "you" in any way, shape or form, there never has been, nor is there, nor will there ever be?

A question comes up: if this is the case, then what in the world is there?! If I arose out of my surroundings, and am just one possible arrangement of the same stuff that makes up my surroundings, then I must be no more and no less than what I perceive. If ‘I’ in fact does not exist, then what is experiencing everything? Is it simply that the universe gave rise to a “thing” which can perceive itself and other things, and that thing abstracted a separate identity out of thin air? If my surroundings elicit reactions and thoughts within me, and those reactions and thoughts follow the paths/grooves left by previous thoughts, then … I’m stuck!

Trying another angle: When I go to sleep there is an absence of perception and experience. ‘I’ cease to exist, which implies that ‘I’ is born out of thoughts, which can only occur when signals from the environment are received and interpreted. But if I am my environment … then … stuck again!

I feel like I’m rambling at this point, but this attempt to answer your question did reveal how hard it is to track down the ‘I’. I feel as if I can intellectually rationalize that there is no ‘I’, but I’m having a difficult time internalizing/feeling/embodying this.

[mikenew]

Hi Preet,

I'd like you to do the following: Shut your eyes. Where is the body? Don’t use touch. What is body? How do you know its there? Is it sensation that tells you its there? Is it sensation then thought?

A question comes up: if this is the case, then what in the world is there?! If I arose out of my surroundings, and am just one possible arrangement of the same stuff that makes up my surroundings, then I must be no more and no less than what I perceive. If ‘I’ in fact does not exist, then what is experiencing everything? Is it simply that the universe gave rise to a “thing” which can perceive itself and other things, and that thing abstracted a separate identity out of thin air? If my surroundings elicit reactions and thoughts within me, and those reactions and thoughts follow the paths/grooves left by previous thoughts, then … I’m stuck!

Trying another angle: When I go to sleep there is an absence of perception and experience. ‘I’ cease to exist, which implies that ‘I’ is born out of thoughts, which can only occur when signals from the environment are received and interpreted. But if I am my environment … then … stuck again!

Preet, this is all thoughts that going on here. conjecturing and postulating. There is no direct experience.

In direct experience, ie. in sensation-prior-to-thought, there is an experience: touch has an experience of pressure, vision has an experience of squiggles popping up in a bright field, hearing has an experience of tiny bursts of sensation .... THAT is ALL that is happening in reality right here right now ..... THEN thoughts add meaning to the experience, claiming the bright field of vision is "a computer screen", claiming the tiny bursts of sensation are "clicks" and that the pressure is "fingers" on "a keyboard".... NONE of those labels is actually present in direct experience.

I hope this help to illustrate the difference between direct experience and thoughts.

Can you answer the question again, this time from direct experience only?

What comes up when it is read that there absolutely no "you" in any way, shape or form, there never has been, nor is there, nor will there ever be?

I feel as if I can intellectually rationalize that there is no ‘I’, but I’m having a difficult time internalizing/feeling/embodying this.

Ah ... be careful not to take "no I" on as another belief or an embodied experience that is chased or desired. This is another thought trap. We are here in this process to simply direct experience not to build more belief structures.

Love

Mike

[preetybird]

Thanks Mike for the reminder about using direct experience. I didn't have time today to do any meaningful inquiry (just finished a long day of work and off to sleep), but I'll be sure to get back to you tomorrow evening. In the meantime, I'll try to do the exercise you suggested whenever I get the chance throughout the day.

[mikenew]

Great Preet.

enjoy.

[preetybird]

Thank you again for clarifying the difference between direct experience and thoughts. Your examples were helpful, but I feel as if I have yet to fully grasp DE. As this is new for me, I’d appreciate it if you continue to catch me when I drift off into expressing thoughts vs. my direct experience.

Where is the body? Don’t use touch. What is body? How do you know its there? Is it sensation that tells you its there? Is it sensation then thought?

I’m finding it difficult not using my sense of touch to describe the sensations felt by my body, so please bear with me:

Immediately after closing my eyes I feel the skin of my neck being pulled downward by my arms. I feel pressure on my back, butt, thighs, and calves. I feel the warmth of one foot resting on top of the other. I feel other contact points too, such as the cool skin of my intersecting fingers. Sometimes my face feels a static-like tingling.

I feel as if the body is “there” because it is experiencing these sensations. For example, I can direct my attention to the dull, rolling ache in my lower back, and that sensation seems to confirm that at least “something” is there.

As my eyes stay closed, different physical sensations arise and fade, such as an itch or a subtly throbbing vein near my chin. I notice that the more I focus on a sensation, the larger its presence becomes and the more it dominates my attention.

(If this does not seem to be an expression of my direct experience, could you please answer the question yourself in order to provide me with a concrete example?)

Can you answer the question again, this time from direct experience only?

What comes up when it is read that there absolutely no "you" in any way, shape or form, there never has been, nor is there, nor will there ever be?

After repeating to myself that “there is no ‘me’”, I feel a very slight tightening in my chest and below my throat, due to feeling some frustration. I think the frustration comes up because I am expecting a distinct thought to arise in reaction to that statement, which I could then report back to you, but nothing clear comes up … just some silence. The silence makes me feel a little uneasy because I am already having trouble answering your questions … and I really want to be able to answer your questions!

[preetybird]

Hi Mike,

I haven't heard from you in a few days and was wondering if everything is ok.

Hope you're doing well!
-Preet

[mikenew]

Hi Morning

I've been tied up on another project but now have some time today ... and will respond.

Thanks for checking in.

Mike

[mikenew]

Hi Preet

Thank you again for clarifying the difference between direct experience and thoughts. Your examples were helpful, but I feel as if I have yet to fully grasp DE. As this is new for me, I’d appreciate it if you continue to catch me when I drift off into expressing thoughts vs. my direct experience.

My pleasure - it is a key to this process and one that most people need coaching in. So very happy to remind you if you drift. And what you've replied with is a vast improvement.

I feel the skin of my neck .... I feel the warmth of one foot ... I feel other contact points ... I feel as if the body is there ...

What is this 'I' that feels? 'I', 'Me', 'Mine' are all labels that are useful in language for communicating day to day but they are just labels. Same with 'You', 'they', 'them' etc...There is no who. There is nothing here in direct experience that is separate from experienced. Just this. Always now.

Do this ...
First write what you are experiencing right now using words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now. Like this- "I am laying in bed. I am hearing the rain, I am typing these words...."

Do it for 10 minutes. Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?

Then for next 10 minutes write without words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs: "Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the rain."

Again watch what is happening in the body.

Once finished the above, compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

I feel as if the body is “there” because it is experiencing these sensations.

Now this sentence is not direct experience. This is thought only creating substance out of shadows, putting thoughts on top of thoughts. Can you see the circular logic and the assumption in this statement? ... the use of the word 'it' ... 'it' in that sentence refers to "the body", so replaceing 'it' the sentance reads:

I feel as if the body is “there” because _the_body_ is experiencing these sensations.

So the body is there because the body is there .... No! Doesn't work not even in logical thought .... I feel santa exists because santa exists .... No! ... self referential logic does not prove anything (except perhaps that thoughts can believe anything!)

What this is showing us is how ingrained certain beliefs and conditioning is, in that we prove their existence based on assumptions. In this process we are here to let go of all our conditioning, our ingrained beliefs, the way we have lived for decades, the assumptions we've held and look again with direct experience, as if through the eyes of a baby, and see what is really there.

It is a big change for most people, and it can happen in seconds, and it can take time for that seeing to happen as well. Once seen it can never be unseen and it can take some time for the old conditioning/beliefs/habits and ways of seeing to fully let go. For now lets just look.

As my eyes stay closed ... near my chin ... my attention ....

What lays claim to ownership? How is a sensation, converted to an object then converted to I own this object "My eyes"

Here's another exercise for you to help with this.

Stare at a table. How do you know the table is there? What is your direct experience of this ‘table’? List your direct experience. Is it senses that tell you its there? Is it thoughts about the table that tell you its there? Look very closely. Which comes first the sense or the thought?

Touch the table. How do you know its there? What is your direct experience of this ‘table’? List your direct experience. Is it senses again? Is it thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the senses or the thoughts?

Look at how thoughts try and take over, try and explain, try and prove.

Touch the table with your eyes shut. How do you know its there? What is your direct experience of this ‘table’? List your direct experience. Is it senses again? Is it thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the senses or the thoughts?

Look at how thoughts try and take over, try and explain, try and prove.

After repeating to myself that “there is no ‘me’”, I feel a very slight tightening in my chest and below my throat, due to feeling some frustration. I think the frustration comes up because I am expecting a distinct thought to arise in reaction to that statement, which I could then report back to you, but nothing clear comes up … just some silence. The silence makes me feel a little uneasy because I am already having trouble answering your questions … and I really want to be able to answer your questions!

Can you see this is all story? How does "a tightening" become "frustration"? How does "frustration" become "I want ...." ? Can you see that a sensation is experienced, then a thought comes in labelling it as "frustration" and then more thoughts jump into the first thought's party to explain and support the first thought by stating why the frustration is there. What happens if the sensation was just experienced, and thoughts happened but were just allowed to be?

… just some silence. The silence makes me feel a little uneasy because I am already having trouble answering your questions … and I really want to be able to answer your questions!

Silence .... if that's what is experienced then that is what is experienced.

What is it that then layers on all this "feel uneasy", "having trouble", "really wanting" .... ? Is it thoughts?


Love

Mike

[preetybird]

First write what you are experiencing right now using words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now. Like this- "I am laying in bed. I am hearing the rain, I am typing these words…." Do it for 10 minutes. Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?

Then for next 10 minutes write without words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs: "Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the rain." Again watch what is happening in the body.

Once finished the above, compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

When using ‘I’ or ‘me’ to describe experience, I felt some tightening in the body. Thoughts occurred faster as I attempted to convert my observations into typed text. I noticed that a sensation occurred first, and then I responded to it (like scratching an itch, or readjusting my knee).

When not using ‘I’ or ‘me’ to describe experience, I definitely felt more relaxed, and nearly started to doze off toward the end of the 10 minutes haha. My thoughts seemed to occur at a slower rate.

You’re right: the sensations simply occurred, not "to" "me". I registered the sensation, such as an itch, and I did something about, like scratching it, but that doesn’t mean the sensation was “mine”. Without labels, just the perceived sensation was there. Labels do seem to affect the experience, such as by ascribing degree (such as if something itches a little or a lot), and otherwise interpret the sensation toward a direction that may not necessarily be real.

So the body is there because the body is there .... No! Doesn't work not even in logical thought .... I feel santa exists because santa exists .... No! ... self referential logic does not prove anything (except perhaps that thoughts can believe anything!)

That definitely did sound circular. Let me try again:

Where is the body? Don’t use touch. What is body? How do you know its there? Is it sensation that tells you its there? Is it sensation then thought?

Sensations are occurring all over, all around: on the surface of my skin; inside the body (something [the heart] feels to be moving down, and then up, constantly); I hear a steady buzz (of cars passing by on the freeway nearby). How do I know the body is “there” without seeing it? It’s as if my awareness is going out and fetching a sensation or, more accurately, the sheer fact that a sensation is occurring means something is there. Or else there'd be ... nothing, completely blank and devoid of anything.

Stare at a table. How do you know the table is there? What is your direct experience of this ‘table’? List your direct experience. Is it senses that tell you its there? Is it thoughts about the table that tell you its there? Look very closely. Which comes first the sense or the thought?

I see black [the table surface], with straight lines after which white [the wall] and beige [the carpet] start. I also see a lighter black [where light hits the surface]. I see darker blacks too [where different objects on the table cast shadows). I'm reminded of an exercise in a Drawing 101 class: rendering 3D objects into 2D in black & white by using different shades to mimic perspective, edges overlapping others, etc.

When I look closely, I realize that my thoughts create "perception shortcuts", to help me quickly categorize what I see. For example, if I were to quickly look at the table I’d quickly register: “a glass cup is sitting on top of the table, casting a shadow”. But if I look closely I notice the different colors of the table and everything around the table. When I see a cup on the table, there’s nothing about the actual sensation of seeing the glass that inherently means that the cup is made of “glass” with “water droplets sticking to the sides”. I simple see through this object, and the colors around the object help me decipher the shape of the object … The sensations definitely come first, and the labels seem to create “meaning”.

Touch the table. How do you know its there? What is your direct experience of this ‘table’? List your direct experience. Is it senses again? Is it thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the senses or the thoughts? Look at how thoughts try and take over, try and explain, try and prove.

I see my arm -- a brown thing [my hand] now punctuating the black [the table] … my fingers breaking up the straight lines [of the table edge] -- move toward the table. When my fingers touch the table … [It’s hard translating direct experience into words!] … my fingers cast shadows. I feel a cold sensation on my fingertips. When I move my fingers, the cold sensation turns into a slightly warm sensation. Once my fingers touch the table they can’t move any further … the more I try the more the muscles in my arm tense up. When my fingers move across the table I feel a “stickiness” (my best DE analog for friction). Again, the senses come first, and then my thoughts pour in to start labeling that which I experience (e.g. “my finger is going over a straight edge now”). When I pay attention to something, the sensation is perceived but the thoughts are directed there too. When I’m not paying attention to something, like the sensation of my legs resting on top of the bed while I’m touching the table, there is no sensation felt, and no thoughts about my leg on the bed arise … What is the role of selective awareness in all this?

Touch the table with your eyes shut. How do you know its there? What is your direct experience of this ‘table’? List your direct experience. Is it senses again? Is it thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the senses or the thoughts? Look at how thoughts try and take over, try and explain, try and prove.

I feel the skin of my elbow un-sticking from itself as my forearm separates from by bicep ... the cloth of my sweatshirt adjusting in a hundred different ways that I can't fully sense ... a coolness on my hand and fingers [as my hand goes through the air, toward the table]. Finally, my fingers feel a smooth’ish texture, a cooler sensation, and my arm can’t extend anymore, my fingers can’t move forward anymore. I know “something” is there because it is blocking the trajectory my arm was on when I first moved it. I definitely sense the table first, especially as my fingers push down, and the straight edge indents the skin of my fingers. Senses definitely come first, and the thoughts pour in to affix labels on what I am feeling.

Can you see this is all story? How does "a tightening" become "frustration"? How does "frustration" become "I want ...." ? Can you see that a sensation is experienced, then a thought comes in labelling it as "frustration" and then more thoughts jump into the first thought's party to explain and support the first thought by stating why the frustration is there. What happens if the sensation was just experienced, and thoughts happened but were just allowed to be?

Yes, I can see how a label describing a sensation can snowball into full-blown “frustration”. If the sensation was just experienced, the “tightening in the throat” would be just that ... no more or no less.

Silence .... if that's what is experienced then that is what is experienced. What is it that then layers on all this "feel uneasy", "having trouble", "really wanting" .... ? Is it thoughts?

Yes, it's definitely thoughts that add these layers on top of the sensation, like an onion, to an extent where the original sensation is rendered nearly unnoticeable, untraceable.

Thanks for the guidance so far! It's helping me see things in slightly different ways than before.