Hoping to find a guide asap

[ENDY]

Hi,

I am looking for a guide. I plan to devote a TON of time to this looking (or at least as much as is necessary), and am hoping for a guide that might be willing to respond often. I expect that I will respond very promptly to any post (I am in SW US) and am making this my top priority.

I have read all the rules, and my only expectation is that I will not be as self-involved after the looking is complete. I am aware of the quote function and the other basics.

As a way of providing a little background: While practicing self-inquiry a few years ago, the sense of self vanished, and "I" saw what life looks like when not viewed through the filter of self. However, the filter returned a few days later and I have been grasping at straws a bit since. I am not looking for the filter to go away, just looking to confirm, with certainty, that there is in fact, no self.

I would love to jump right in.

Thanks in Advance,

Endy

[csm]

Hi Endy!

I can be your guide if you like, but not in the way you describe.

If you're certain you want a rapid style of guiding you can wait to see if someone else comes forward, or there is also a Facebook group (Liberation Unleashed Gate) where more real-time guiding occurs. These may be a better fit for you than my style.

But consider this: if you are promptly responding to every post, when are you taking time to LOOK for the answers?

This process is not a dialogue, and it's not about trading ideas until you get an intellectual understanding. It's about looking at your experience in ways that are unfamiliar and that require you to break through long-held habits. It's true that the insight we point to can happen in an instant - any instant. But most people have to spend some serious time really LOOKing.

So my proposal is that I will typically post only once everyday, and I would suggest that you take the day to live your life with attention and reflect on the posts before you respond.

I'm in Western Canada and generally post in the morning.

Take your time to consider this and let me know if you'd like to proceed.

With Love,

Sage

[ENDY]

Sounds good, let's do it. I'm ready to get started whenever you are.

[csm]

Wonderful!

Shall I call you Endy, or is there another name you'd prefer?

Thank you for looking at the rules and basics and learning to use the quote function. The guidelines can vary a little bit from guide to guide though so for the sake of being thorough please look over and confirm the points below.

And if you haven't already, please read the Disclaimer and watch the short video on the LU home page.

1. Daily participation is a priority. If you can't respond fully on a given day, a few words to let me know you're still engaged would be appreciated.

2. I will generally ask questions, which prompt your investigation and answers. I may offer the occasional bit of explanation but I'm here to guide, not to teach.

3. When you answer/report, please do so with absolute honesty.

4. Please answer from Direct Experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. I'll provide a more thorough description of D.E. in the next post or two.

5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really commit to begin looking for this separate self, this "I". Look for what is the experience throughout the day as this looking happens. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's fine to continue that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

Also...

Please be aware that the forum can log you out without warning. If you're typing a post directly in the edit box here, and you get logged out before you click Submit, your words can get lost. There are two ways to avoid this. One, use the Preview button frequently. That will keep you logged in. Or two, type your responses in a separate program like Notepad first, then copy and paste them into the forum. (But that way you have to re-edit your post for the quote function etc.)


Once all that is confirmed, I'd like to hear a bit more about the experiences that brought you here.

When you say you expect to be less "self-involved", what does that mean to you? If you can elaborate on that and provide some specific examples it would be helpful.

I'd also like to hear more about the before, during and after of your experience a few years ago. Can you please describe what changed when you had the insight, and what changed when "the filter" returned?

Love, Sage

[ENDY]

Thanks, Sage. Please do call me Endy.

I have read all points and agree to them.

When you say you expect to be less "self-involved", what does that mean to you? If you can elaborate on that and provide some specific examples it would be helpful.

I'd like to be able to reflect on the self-referencing that goes on with utter clarity and confirmation that, actually, there is no self. In other words, so many thoughts involve "I" and "me." and it would be great to see that, in fact, they refer to nothing. Hopefully, this might take some of the steam out of the engine. The analogies of Batman, unicorns, and Santa Claus are used often here. I would love to be able to dismiss the self-referencing as referring to a fictional character.

I'd also like to hear more about the before, during and after of your experience a few years ago. Can you please describe what changed when you had the insight, and what changed when "the filter" returned?

I asked "who am I' very earnestly, sincerely, and without trying to find an answer in concepts. All of a sudden, there was no "I' filter, all self-referencing ceased, and it was clear that there is only "this." This lasted for a few days, actually. The "I' thought would start to rise, and it was seen as silly, as nonsensical, as utterly irrelevent. However, after a few days, the self-referencing was thick, and also bought into. The felt sense of "I" returned so strongly that it has seemed real since, and not just as a feeling or thought.

Look forward to exploring. I didn't mean to be a little pushy in my first email, was just trying to emphasize how important this search is for me.

Thanks,
Endy

[csm]

Hi Endy!

Okay, so let's spend some time concentrating on getting familiar with direct experience, what is meant by that, and the ways that we relate to thought. The illusion of self depends on a relationship with thinking that is common and hard to overcome. More on that in a minute.

Let's start with your expectations. You talk about seeing with utter clarity the fictitious nature of the self. We will get there. But it may not be what you imagine it to be. Bear with me for a clumsy example here. If I ask you, "Is Batman real?" you will undoubtedly answer with assurance that he is not. But if you sit down to watch The Dark Knight, chances are you will become engaged with the story and characters, feel emotions, experience periodic elevations in your heart rate, and so on. As you watch the movie you will not have a constant inner monologue saying "This is Fiction, This is Fiction, This is Fiction..." Instead, it seems real... not as ultimate reality, but as a real movie.

It's not that complete dis-identification with every sense of self isn't possible, but it involves a deepening far beyond the simple realization of no-self.

So what we'll work on here is getting to the point where you can look at every arising that seems to indicate self and see that it is illusory. We'll develop tools to help you examine and dismantle the self illusions that arise. You'll be able to see that the self is like Batman - a real story, with drama and recognizable characteristics, but as you say - FICTION. But the stories don't stop dead.

This does take "steam out of the engine". How much momentum the train still carries varies from person to person (so to speak). Old habits can carry on. Integration usually take time.

From what you've written so far I'm sure you have an intellectual understanding of all this. You know that seeing through the illusion doesn't mean the story or "filter" stops. The key here is adjusting the way you relate to that filter. Right now the filter is carrying weight. In your words, it is "thick", you "bought into" it, it seems "real".

This thing you're feeling, the palpability of self - it all comes from misconstruing what thought is.

So here's why we put such focus on "direct experience" here at LU. Until we see thought for what it is it misleads us, it tricks us. So a re-training is required. We must learn to look at a level of experience beneath thought. Only then do we recognize when thought is a useful tool.

So we take the side door around thinking, and we investigate with direct experience. Direct Experience can be defined differently for different types of inquiry, but here at LU, for the purposes of our inquiry let's define it as seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, tactile and kinesthetic feeling, and awareness of thoughts as events. This last one is in contrast to engagement with the content of thought.

Most of us are habituated to relating to thoughts as their content. But thought contents are a big part of the illusion of self, so it's important to learn to isolate the real experience of thinking from the conceptual abstracts that thoughts point to.

So you have two assignments today. The first is to try to observe all the thoughts that arise from a distance. Try to take a step back and see each thought as if it belongs to someone else, as if you're a surveyor counting cars on a freeway for a lane expansion.

The second is to see if you can think of any conviction you hold that exists in the way you imagine your post-Gate realization of no-self will exist. What do you believe in with assurance that can serve as a model for the way you expect to see no-self? If you can find one, really examine that belief and describe to me in detail how and why that conviction is reliable.

Let me know what you discover.

Love,
Sage

[ENDY]

Hi, Sage. Thank you for spelling this out. I am completely on board and am committed to investigating via direct experience.

So you have two assignments today. The first is to try to observe all the thoughts that arise from a distance. Try to take a step back and see each thought as if it belongs to someone else, as if you're a surveyor counting cars on a freeway for a lane expansion.

OK, will do!

The second is to see if you can think of any conviction you hold that exists in the way you imagine your post-Gate realization of no-self will exist. What do you believe in with assurance that can serve as a model for the way you expect to see no-self? If you can find one, really examine that belief and describe to me in detail how and why that conviction is reliable.

Forgive me, I'm struggling to follow this second instruction. The only conviction that would serve as a model for the way I expect to see no-self, is the conviction that there is no self. That one conviction, plain and simple. That life goes on, quite like before, but that it goes on for no one, that there is no one living life, no one in control. The issue is that this conviction is not present now, and it is why "I" am here. I think I'm missing something in this instruction.

Thanks,
Endy

[ENDY]

OK, just reading this over again and again, and it just occurred to me what you mean. What am I actually convinced of right now that would serve as a model for the level of conviction I am hoping to gain of the fact that there is no self? Well, I can be sure of the fact that life exists. That existence exists. And, I don't have to refer to thought to be certain of this. It is readily evident. It would be wonderful if the conviction that there is no self will measure up to this certainty, as no conceptual reference is necessary for its foundation.

[csm]

Hi Endy,

So how did it go with watching your thoughts? Please describe to me any observations you made and any patterns that seemed to show up as you watched.

Conviction in life and existence. That's a good one. You'll recall that I said:

If you can find one, really examine that belief and describe to me in detail how and why that conviction is reliable.

Saying it is self-evident isn't untrue, but I want to make sure you're getting in the habit of LOOKing for answers here rather than just going with the answers thoughts provides automatically.

So spend some time sitting quietly with that conviction. Go deeply into the experience of knowing life and existence. Then describe to me as best you can how that exercise was experienced. Try to communicate to me the core essence of that conviction, without going into theory.

A few things to watch for during the process:

*How is the body responding - what sensations are arising?
*What kinds of thoughts arise?
*Does the sense of I get at all involved in the investigation?
*If it does, what role is it playing?

As you go about your day, continue to try to keep thoughts at arm's length for observation. See when the "I" thoughts seem the most powerful. Let me know what you find.

Love,
Sage


P.S. - Are you aware of the subscribe button at the bottom of the page? It will send you email notifications when a new post appears.

[ENDY]

Hi, Sage.

So how did it go with watching your thoughts? Please describe to me any observations you made and any patterns that seemed to show up as you watched.

There was a lot of time thinking about thinking. A lot of thoughts about thought in general. For example, a lot thoughts like "Was I watching those thoughts or was I engaged?" or "Wow I wasn't thinking for a few seconds there," or "wow that was a lot of thinking that last few minutes." On top of that, there was an obsessing of a few conversations that were had at work on Friday. Replaying them, analyzing them, spinning them around, etc. Some anxiety about the following week at work. So, much time spent dwelling on the past, and much time worrying about the future. Finally, a lot of time wondering if I actually see that self doesn't exist. A lot of, "is there a someone hearing these sounds" and "can a self be found anywhere in present experience?"

So spend some time sitting quietly with that conviction. Go deeply into the experience of knowing life and existence. Then describe to me as best you can how that exercise was experienced. Try to communicate to me the core essence of that conviction, without going into theory.

A few things to watch for during the process:

*How is the body responding - what sensations are arising?
*What kinds of thoughts arise?
*Does the sense of I get at all involved in the investigation?
*If it does, what role is it playing?

There is an intuitive, very basic sense of "am-ness." No need to refer to thoughts to verify this. Am-ness is. When this is attended to, attention naturally settles in the chest/heart area and out of the mind. Thoughts decrease, both in quantity and in magnitude. Thoughts start feeling more impersonal and less relevant. There are some thoughts like "hmm am I really seeing those," or "hey! what is that 'I'? So yes, the sense of I gets investigated, as it is all day, and has it has been for several years now. Regarding the role, it still feels like there is an "I" leading the whole investigation, that has some sort of control.

As you go about your day, continue to try to keep thoughts at arm's length for observation. See when the "I" thoughts seem the most powerful. Let me know what you find.

The "I" thoughts seem most powerful when I consider myself in relation to other people. Other people feel very other than, and it feels as if they are observing a me. I can be pretty self-conscious, and the I-thought not only seems powerful, but there is a visceral, self-conscious all-over sensation that seems to lock in.

Thanks,
Endy

[csm]

Hi Endy!

Thanks, this was very good reporting. It shows good focus, an understanding of DE, clear communication, and it really helps me see where you're at in this process.

You mentioned that thoughts can seem more or less powerful and more or less personal depending on context. These are important observations and we want to deepen them. Here are some exercises that may help with that.

1) What power do thoughts have? What can they do? Watch them carefully, watch them as events or objects. Engaging with the content is not part of this exercise.

2) Look at the ownership of thoughts. Maybe some seem to come and go like clouds, while others seem, real, true, important. Do the latter feel more like YOURS? What is the quality that makes some thoughts personal? Where is the "my-ness" in those thoughts? What is the difference between a thought you believe and one you don't?

3) Imagine a mug. Imagine the way it looks, its colours. Imagine the way light plays off its surface. Image the texture under your thumbs and fingertips. Imagine how heavy it feels. Do this again - with something "imaginary" - a dragon, say, or whatever you like. Really "create" that object in your head. Are some of those thoughts more real than others? Do the thoughts themselves have any quality that tells you whether they refer to something "real"? Really look at the quality of the thoughts beyond their content.

4) Can thoughts think?

If answers pop up quickly, write them down somewhere, set them aside, and look some more.

It's more important that you take your time with these than get them all done in one day, so just send me what you can as you can.

With Love,
Sage

[ENDY]

Hi Sage,

What power do thoughts have? What can they do? Watch them carefully, watch them as events or objects. Engaging with the content is not part of this exercise.

I have trouble maintaining the perspective of "watching" thoughts for any length of time. There doesn't feel like there is any distance between the watching and the thoughts. When there does feel like some distance, for a few seconds, it feels forced and artificial. I am going to continue to work on this one, to watch them carefully as objects. Not engaging feels like a non-option but I will continue to practice this exercise.

2) Look at the ownership of thoughts. Maybe some seem to come and go like clouds, while others seem, real, true, important. Do the latter feel more like YOURS? What is the quality that makes some thoughts personal? Where is the "my-ness" in those thoughts? What is the difference between a thought you believe and one you don't?

The ones that feel true and important are the ones that involve "me": How am I going to do in the meeting tomorrow? What am I going to say? What if I say this? What if I say that? What does she think of me? Does she like me? Am I going to be happy at some point? What should I do to become happy? Couldn't I find another job that would make me happier? Should I move back to the east coast? Wasn't I happier there? Is it possible to avoid more social disasters? Is there something wrong with me? And on and on.

The thoughts about me seem real, even though they are often challenged (what is this "me"?). Sitting here, alone, to say that these thoughts are "mine" sounds kind of inaccurate. But, in conversation, they're definitely mine as opposed to theirs. I will continue to question whether these thoughts are "mine." As far as believing them goes, it seems as if I pretty much believe them all! Or at least, they are all believed.

3) Imagine a mug. Imagine the way it looks, its colours. Imagine the way light plays off its surface. Image the texture under your thumbs and fingertips. Imagine how heavy it feels. Do this again - with something "imaginary" - a dragon, say, or whatever you like. Really "create" that object in your head. Are some of those thoughts more real than others? Do the thoughts themselves have any quality that tells you whether they refer to something "real"? Really look at the quality of the thoughts beyond their content.

No, all thoughts are equal, as far as their independent reality goes. Of course, the thought comes, well some thoughts refer to real things (a mug can be a real thing), while some refer to imaginary things (like a dragon). Nevertheless, the only quality that qualifies their reality is whether or not they have been conditioned to be believable. Thoughts about dragons are easily dismissed. Thoughts about a me not so much.

4) Can thoughts think?

I love this question. Well, duh, obviously not, thoughts can't think. Yet, despite the simplicity of this, the implications of this are pretty major. The I thought implies that I am a thought. And yet, thoughts can't think, thoughts just come and go. So the thought "I think that..." is a fallacy. And if "I" am not a thought, then what am I? Right now, it feels like I am an amalgamation of the body, of thoughts, of my history, etc. And yet, I have seen very clearly, experientially, that this is not so. And yet, boy does it feel like "I" am real, in some sense.

Thanks,
Endy

[csm]

Hi Endy!

I have trouble maintaining the perspective of "watching" thoughts for any length of time. There doesn't feel like there is any distance between the watching and the thoughts. When there does feel like some distance, for a few seconds, it feels forced and artificial. I am going to continue to work on this one, to watch them carefully as objects. Not engaging feels like a non-option but I will continue to practice this exercise.

Okay, in a way that lack of separation is a good thing, but we do need to cultivate a bit of space around thoughts. So try this. Carefully watch what happens when you read the following slowly and one at a time:


The cow jumped over the moon.

******************************


******************************
Don't imagine a Pink Elephant

******************************


******************
Once upon a time...

****************************************************



Your thought about the cow jumping over the moon - where did it come from? Where did it go? Was there a visual component? If so was it a direct representation of a real image (like from a book?) or was it a composite or more original image? Was it animated? Did it leave any trace in your body?

Your thought about the Pink Elephant - why did the instruction NOT to imagine one not work?

Once upon a time - Did you hear it in a voice? A specific person's voice? Did your mind tag a few more words onto it ("there was a..." or "in a kingdom far away...") Was there also an image?

Now, hopefully these examples are pretty neutral in an emotional sense. That makes it easier to watch them with a bit of objectivity. Now try this: Think if one of your core values. Something like whether it's more important to be merciful or just. Take your time and find something that you believe strongly. Condense that idea into a short statement. Sit quietly with eyes closed and mentally say that statement with conviction.

What happens in your body?
What emotions come up?
Are any specific memories triggered?

Whatever comes up, relax into that state, those feelings and sensations. Let them flow.

Then, consider these questions:

Does the thought make it true?
Can that thought make you do anything, or touch the outside world in any way?
If you mentally state the opposite does anything change?


Let me know what you find, and as always, don't limit your descriptions to the answers to these questions - bring up anything at all that you discover in the process.

Love,
Sage

[ENDY]

Hi Sage,

Your thought about the cow jumping over the moon - where did it come from? Where did it go? Was there a visual component? If so was it a direct representation of a real image (like from a book?) or was it a composite or more original image? Was it animated? Did it leave any trace in your body?

Your thought about the Pink Elephant - why did the instruction NOT to imagine one not work?

Once upon a time - Did you hear it in a voice? A specific person's voice? Did your mind tag a few more words onto it ("there was a..." or "in a kingdom far away...") Was there also an image?

Who knows where these thoughts come from or go, the thoughts about the cow jumping over the moon, or any other. There was no visual component, just the reading of words on the screen, and a dismissing of them. Given its lack of an emotional component, there was no trace left in the body.

Yes, for a few seconds the instruction about the pink elephant worked. I read it and thought, ok, I've heard this one before, I actually don't have to think about it, moving on...and then the image of a pink elephant popped up for a split second, but I actually had to try to conjure one up.

I did hear "once upon a time," in a storytelling voice. No specific person, just the generic storytelling voice, no tag of any further words.

I do have to say, that above all, all three of these were seen as just words on a screen with no inherent meaning. It was almost as if there was a CHOICE to give them meaning, a split second, mostly subconscious choice.

What happens in your body?
What emotions come up?
Are any specific memories triggered?

Whatever comes up, relax into that state, those feelings and sensations. Let them flow.

Then, consider these questions:

Does the thought make it true?
Can that thought make you do anything, or touch the outside world in any way?
If you mentally state the opposite does anything change?

I feel emotion when I do this. Compassion, raw sadness, love, regret. No specific memories, just the emotions themselves. I don't know what you mean by "does the thought make it true?" The thought can make me act in a certain way, to act in accordance with this value. By doing so, the "outside world" is touched. If I mentally state the opposite, I confuse myself, and I start to worry that I might somehow brainwash myself in some really bizarre way.

Let me know what you find, and as always, don't limit your descriptions to the answers to these questions - bring up anything at all that you discover in the process.

There are moments, and lumps of moments throughout the day when reality is seen in a true, stark sense. This has been going on for several years. They are always passing, and there is never any "aha, the search is now final" but the sense of no self is often there. Moreover, sometimes I look, and it seems pretty clear that there is no self. Never clear enough, though.

Thanks,
Endy

[csm]

Hi Endy,

Yes, for a few seconds the instruction about the pink elephant worked. I read it and thought, ok, I've heard this one before, I actually don't have to think about it, moving on...and then the image of a pink elephant popped up for a split second, but I actually had to try to conjure one up.

Are you sure this is how it unfolded? As you read the words was there no concept attached to them at all? No mental sounds attached to the words and letters? You may be correct, or it may be that the initial conceptualization was so subtle you didn't notice it. It's helpful to get a feel for these subtle levels of thinking. Try picking up a newspaper or magazine and flipping through it. Let your eyes rest on random words without the intent to read them. Watch to see what happens. Try to get familiar with this subtle flavour of thinking.

I do have to say, that above all, all three of these were seen as just words on a screen with no inherent meaning. It was almost as if there was a CHOICE to give them meaning, a split second, mostly subconscious choice.

Excellent. Do whatever it takes to recreate those conditions. Watch that process that you describe as choosing. Imagine that I have never heard of choice and you need to teach me how to make a decision.

I don't know what you mean by "does the thought make it true?"

Think about someone you love deeply. Think to yourself "I don't love them". Do you love them any less? If not, the thought didn't control the condition. So is it true that some thoughts control conditions and others don't? Or is there something else at play?

The thought can make me act in a certain way, to act in accordance with this value.

Is it true that the thought forces or controls the action? How do you know? Describe to me how this happens, referring to direct experience. Be sure to include a description of what it is that the thought is acting upon to catalyze your action.

Love,
Sage