Guidance please Delma

[Trent]

It's important to understand that we are not negating a self. The sense of self (through thought) actually exists.

Thanks for clarification. Is that what’s meant by a relative self? One day I’ll get all the non dual lingo straight. :)

What we're doing g is tearing apart an assumption.... that there is a you somewhere "inside" or even outside, which owns, has, or even moves through time and space. We are checking all of the places and situations the self is thought to exist. Without this self, it is impossible to carry anything like guilt, regret, or shame.

Releasing all guilt, regret, shame would be terrific! This might not be appropriate here, but I’m curious… Once the “self” is seen through, does the idea of a soul, or a higher self existing on some other plane etc… just seem silly? I mean I can’t find those things, but then again I’m not terribly psychic. Does no separate self mean that everything just unfolds or follows a predetermined pattern?

Where does it feel like Trent exists? Between the eyes was your last comment, and so we're checking the "head senses" usually attributed to that ephemeral thing.

Since there’s a flu kinda thing that the body is playing with today, it really feels like Trent is in these achy body parts and sore head. When I look in the mirror, just body parts, when I look inside here, just dark, no Trent.

Right now you intellectually know that a self isn't controlling the senses. That's a first step. But it still seems as though there is something controlling life?

Again I look for a controller… I can barely control one minute of life or make it manifest a certain way, and all the factors are just too big and beyond comprehension to actually control the thing. This makes all my goal setting, visualization stuff seem preposterous.

Tell me, how does the self show up for you right now?

Can’t locate it…aches just happening, typing happening…looking is happening, but what’s looking? Can’t find a looker… There is a seeming investment in this body staying healthy, going to work. That's still very much there.
Where's the me with these investments? Ugh, can't lay my hands on it, but feel run by it.
Thanks and good night Miss D.

[Delma]

There is an investment in the body staying healthy, but isn't it instinctive? Is it life protecting itself, or is it Trent? Where did the idea to protect the body come from? A self? Or has it always just been there? :)

[Trent]

Yes, it’s always been there. It would be human nature to be strong so we don’t get picked off by wild animals or slow down the tribe. Even before a baby forms a self, once it could crawl, it would try to get away from something scary. Bottom line, wanting this body to be rid of flu isn’t self generated.
T

[Delma]

Can you tell me about what *is* self generated? Let's choose one example to take a look at. Please give the answer that feels most honest, even if it doesn't seem 'correct' to you.

[Trent]

Ok, a while back I had a conflict with a coworker. We had quite a rough patch and she snapped at me several times. I spent some time reflecting on it trying to do the right “spiritual” thing. I rehearsed my words, prayed, etc… and finally got up the nerve to talk about what had been going on. Looking back on it, I was sooo trying to be conscious and present and all that enlightened stuff while I dealt with it. That “seemed” generated in part by my ego self and also my higher self.

You’re right, doesn’t seem “correct” while I’ve been looking here at the Gate, but this is something that still triggers me.
Best,
B

[Delma]

That's a good example. It'll take you a bit deep, but can you look at a couple of questions:

Where did the decision to be a 'good person' or not come from?
Where did the decision to be conscious and present come from?
From where did the idea of a higher self stem?

How did 'you' know what to do to try to be your 'higher self'?

[Trent]

That's a good example. It'll take you a bit deep, but can you look at a couple of questions:

Where did the decision to be a 'good person' or not come from?

Ok I would read your post throughout the day because I just wasn’t getting it. Here goes…
The decision was made by a mind that was raised in a culture of Southern manners and kindness you could say. My parents brought Trent up with certain “socially appropriate” habits. This mind/personality construct whatever you wanna call it also made decisions as a result of being adopted, gay, etc…
Now I know what your gonna say. I think. Find the place where the decision actually happened. I know brain is not it, as much as I want to say it. I can’t actually find a concrete “place”.

Where did the decision to be conscious and present come from?

It comes from years of spiritual conditioning, but again I can’t find the it that was conditioned.

From where did the idea of a higher self stem?

Ugh, confusion overtaking me again… Why am I making this so difficult? Again I could lay out seminars, books, teachers that presented these ideas and this “persona” absorbed them. But said persona can’t be located.

How did 'you' know what to do to try to be your 'higher self'?

I just called out for help and breathed and tried to speak in the clearest most loving way. But if there’s no “me”, then me does nothing, it doesn’t exist so it can’t really do anything.
Oy, sounds like gibberish right now.
Thanks for your persistence Delma!

[Delma]

No worries!

What I wanted you to look at is exactly what you did.... that the behavior is based on conditioning. Was there ever an original "Trent" idea which was not influenced by environment, other people, books, videos, teachers, parents, societal norms?

We are looking at how the idea of a self is developed. Does it develop on its own, or is it a construct of the world, of life?

And lastly, what does that say about the origin of the self?

[Trent]

No worries!

What I wanted you to look at is exactly what you did.... that the behavior is based on conditioning. Was there ever an original "Trent" idea which was not influenced by environment, other people, books, videos, teachers, parents, societal norms?

No

We are looking at how the idea of a self is developed. Does it develop on its own, or is it a construct of the world, of life?

A construct, an idea, built up out of information and ideas from all those things listed above.

And lastly, what does that say about the origin of the self?

That the origin of self is nothing solid, just invisible stuff glommed onto to form something that in itself is just as flimsy.

[Delma]

How can this be seen in evidence?

If you were to make a case for the fact that the self is merely an idea, how would you do it?

Delma

[Trent]

The self is merely an idea. How can I be sure of that? This is quite ironic for me, because as an artist, I’ve done lots of “self” portraits. Paintings of my face. But really, that’s all those were…paintings of a face, and part of a body, made by a body and it’s brain. A body that is constantly changing, cells constantly in motion. Was Trent at 5 the self, or now in the 40’s? No, still just a body with a brain and conditioning, experiencing life. The Trent “self” must have started forming in the womb as it absorbed hormones and emotional states from the mother and after birth, the other bodies start training it for life on earth as Trent. This “self” is a collection of all these memories and thought patterns and images from the get go. Just like a university doesn’t really exist, but is a name used to refer to a collection of buildings, faculty, curriculum etc…
Through this looking and inquiry, I am seeing more and more that this body and its life just happens...it moves through the day upon wakening, completing tasks, taking care of the body, running streams of thought incessantly. Only when the next step of identifying with and thinking that something needs to be done with both this body and the thoughts happens, is a “self” alive and well.

I am experiencing more moments of not “selfing” but it takes a lot of focus and remembering to not get caught up in the thought stream.

[Delma]

Trent,

Here's the best part....

There is no need for focus and remembering. Life itself is doing the 'Trenting'. It takes care of itself, and so there's no one to even remember to focus or get caught up in the thought stream.

No you is there to get caught.
No you is there to have a history.
No you is there to have guilt, regret, or even baggage.

Selfing happens, but it happens to no one at all.

Thoughts appear, but since you've seen that they're uncontrolled, does it matter if a 'self' thought pops up at all?

There's nothing to remember. :)

Can 'you' see this?

Doe losing focus happen to anyone or is it caused by anyone?

[Trent]

Selfing happens, but it happens to no one at all.

Yeah, that’s the mind bending piece of it. Ahhhh, sigh of relief.

Can 'you' see this?

Yes

Does losing focus happen to anyone or is it caused by anyone?

Nope…that makes me smile. Thanks Delma

[Delma]

Are emotions, or 'feelings' still in question, Trent?

If there is a feeling that they are a "You", we can certainly explore there, too. Let's make sure all bases are covered!

[Trent]

Yes, I want to cover all my bases!
Feeling really solid and peaceful the last day or so. Sometimes I go looking for the “I” and not finding it, I say “in here” that there’s no “I” looking either. This seems to generate a sense of peacefulness and evenness. Very nice. Now today, I was in a social situation that I didn’t really want to be a part of. Really cranky and wanted to be alone, but I made nice and played along as best I could. This took me out of my “peaceful” state and really annoyed me. So I thought I had made some kind of shift, but just felt kinda crappy again. Just noticing how much I invest in “personal growth” and end up feeling like a failure. Not successful enough, not good enough, bla bla bla. If there’s no “I” anymore, do these experiences come up still? Do they shift more quickly? My feelings of inadequacy and fear around others in some situations sure still feel like a “me”. Also, if there’s no sense of a “me” how is the “me” of others perceived?
Thanks again Delma