Requesting a guide to help me gatecrash

[moondog]

Hi Jason,

No, there are no doubts about having seen through this illusion.

Good, I'm glad that you're able to confirm that you have no doubts that you have seen that there's just no self, particularly given your subsequent comments.

But still I can't believe that I have crashed the gate already. As you said there are thoughts that are trying to laugh this off like 'This can't be it. It can't be so simple. You anyway have red herrings(like suicide).' etc. These are the residual thoughts, which will die gradually with the truth seen. But, Somehow at this point, I'm not having the full satisfaction that I have already crossed the gate. For example I quote one of the member's experience in this site itself shared in the 'Home' section-

The feelings you describe are not unusual in one who has just seen. Having so much online information about others' liberation experiences is brilliant and an encouragement to many people to follow. But it does have this one downside. There is a tendency to base expectations of what going through the Gate will be like on examples such as the one you quote, which shouldn't be taken as typical or representative. That's one reason why, as guides, we stress that all expectations, whatever they are, should not be relied on or believed from the outset. As I've said, people might 'pop' dramatically, or the entire process of seeing through the self-illusion may be far more gradual, with many gradations in between. I certainly knew I had seen no-self without anything like the experiences described in the example. I have heard it said that the split between 'gentle' and 'dramatic' is about 50:50, for what it's worth.

I'm willing to accept the fact that as a guide you can handhold only till this point and I need to reinforce and recognize the truth from now on under various situations.

You will find that it all just happens, but it helps, whenever 'you remember', to keep looking at your experience.

So, here are the final questions. Once I get your answers, I'll put them forward for other guides for any comments. Then I'll arrange for you to get access to various aftercare and other groups on Facebook and the LU site if you want that. Have you got a Facebook name? If so, either let me know here or, if you prefer, PM it to me.

Always from direct experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen?

Please give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

Pete x

[Toonami]

Hi Pete,

There is a tendency to base expectations of what going through the Gate will be like on examples such as the one you quote, which shouldn't be taken as typical or representative.

Thanks for the explanation. I guess it is different for everyone.

Once I get your answers, I'll put them forward for other guides for any comments. Then I'll arrange for you to get access to various aftercare and other groups on Facebook and the LU site if you want that. Have you got a Facebook name? If so, either let me know here or, if you prefer, PM it to me.

Thank you. I will provide my responses to your questions. You can definitely help me access with LU site, I don't use Facebook.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there is not. It was never present ever. It is just an illusion.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Life as such consists only of direct experiences, thoughts & feelings and life awareness. Only when I try to consider myself as a doer,thinker, feeler or experiencer, the illusion of separate self arises. But anyway, now I have seen through that this self is non existent.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The change is subtle. But I can say that there is no self to feel sorry for failures, be regretful for past decisions, be angry for wrong actions. Life just happens independent of our thoughts and feelings.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The 'arm raise' exercise was the nail in the hammer. As I found that my action is not controlled by my thoughts or by myself as the doer, this pushed me over to look.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Please give examples from your experience.

No to all the above. Things happen by themselves or in a personal case, it happens 'through' this constitution of body, thoughts and feelings. Decision, intention, choosing are just like thoughts arising and subsiding. The actual action however is not controlled by us. There is no intention for example in taking the keys of the car to go and drive. And no 'self' effort in turning on ignition, putting the transmission to drive and actually driving a car. It all happens through me automatically.

6) Anything to add?

Nothing for now. But I don't want to be too bold now to say that I have all the answers. But the fact of seeing through the illusion of self, has irrefutably happened. Thank you for the guidance and putting the car on the right track.

Regards
Jason

[Toonami]

Hi Pete,

I wanted to elaborate some of my responses - so I'm posting more (as I found that couldn't edit my previous post)

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

In addition to what I had posted previously, I have to accept that there are still feelings/anger etc and I cannot say that I have detached completely on 'no-self' grounds. The residual ego/energy is still present and I seem to forget seeing the no-self earlier. Hopefully this subsides in future.

he 'arm raise' exercise was the nail in the hammer

I meant nail in the coffin. But apart from this, the BBC video was also a reason to make the seeing process a bit more easy.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Please give examples from your experience.

Actually all events in life are expressions of life itself. It seems that events are just expressions of life itself. Even the tiniest physical movement or thought is not controlled by me. It happens along, just like a river flows downstream.

Anything to add?

Ok this might be tangential to the forum ideologies, but I seem to have a kind of clarity on what Advaita advocated stating that there is no duality or another 'self' doing and controlling. It is all one - which is life itself.

Regards
Jason

[moondog]

Hi Jason,

Thanks for your replies. I'm just really delighted that you've seen through the illusion of self.

I'll now forward your replies to the other guides. It's quite common for them to put forward questions or points for absolute clarification.

I'll let you know as soon as I've heard from them; it sometimes takes a day or so. It's probably best to keep checking now and again, if at all possible, to keep things moving.

Pete x

[moondog]

Hi Jason,

One of the guides has asked for some clarification when you said the following:

'Things happen by themselves or in a personal case, it happens 'through' this constitution of body, thoughts and feelings.'

Could you explain what what you mean by this?
What is 'a personal case'?

'It all happens through me automatically.'

What is 'me'?

'Even the tiniest physical movement or thought is not controlled by me.'

What is 'me'?

Pete x

[Toonami]

Hi Pete,

Greetings to you and the guide who posted these clarification questions. Thanks for the same. Here are my responses:

'Things happen by themselves or in a personal case, it happens 'through' this constitution of body, thoughts and feelings.'
Could you explain what what you mean by this?
What is 'a personal case'?

All the events that happen in life are not managed or controlled by any doer or a manager. Actions, experiences, feelings and thoughts have no origin or boundaries. They just happen. They rise and fall without any controller or self controlling or doing it.
Human beings however have unique constitutions with physical and mental characteristics. This is not to say that there is a self involved in each and every human being, but just that there are unique beings with differences in their constitution.
The personal case is when events like death happen to the collection of physical body, thought, consciousness, which the carries the label 'Jason'.

It all happens through me automatically.'
What is 'me'?

In this case it refers to the colloquial term used to point the collection of physical body, thought, consciousness labeled Jason for easing daily transactions in society.

'Even the tiniest physical movement or thought is not controlled by me.

This is to say that it these physical movements or thoughts are not controlled by a self entity called 'me' as there is no such entity. Before the forum discussions and direct pointing exercise, there was an illusion that these are controlled by a self entity. But not anymore.

Regards
Jason

[moondog]

Hi Jason,

Just a couple more questions for you from another guide:

In answer to Question 2 you've said, 'Only when I try to consider myself as a doer, thinker, feeler or experiencer, the illusion of separate self arises. But anyway, now I have seen through that this self is non existent'

Is there a separate entity making a decision to consider?

Can there be two, one deciding whether there is another doer thinker etc?

Pete x

[moondog]

Hi Jason,

Here's something else from another guide.

Regarding question 2, Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now, -

He simply wants you to give some details of your personal experience, rather than thoughts. How does it feel? Is it any different? If so ,what is different? He's looking for examples.

Regarding your answer to question 3, How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days. -

He says that there's no direct experiential evidence, and that you just state, "I can say that there is no self to feel sorry for failures, be regretful for past decisions, be angry for wrong actions" which, he says, is basically just stating a conclusion, a thought. He says that there are no examples, no descriptions, no before and after, and that what is needed here are actual experiential examples, unadorned by either thought or analysis.

In both cases, he wants to see experiential evidence.

Looking forward to your replies.

Pete x

[Toonami]

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the questions. Here are my responses:

Only when I try to consider myself as a doer, thinker, feeler or experiencer, the illusion of separate self arises. But anyway, now I have seen through that this self is non existent'

Is there a separate entity making a decision to consider?
Can there be two, one deciding whether there is another doer thinker etc?

No, there cannot be two entities definitely. However,in early stages the knowledge of having seen through the no-self illusion is sometimes forgotten. During these moments, when someone judges me, vents their anger at me, because of habitual identification with self (which could be residual energies working) -[this is what I had mentioned as consider myself as a doer, thinker etc.], the illusion of self arises and tries to get defensive and protect itself.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now, -

I am normally considered to be short tempered and I have received the feedback from close friends and family. Normally when I have a conversation around moot topics, I normally tend to defend my point of view endlessly and always try to justify my actions. This tends to inflagrate the situation and the result often is unnecessary heartburns.
Of course I can now see that the reason was there was an effort(nothing but a thought) inside to try to protect the entity called 'Jason', his actions and his views.

Recently I had a similar situation with my wife in the car (somehow arguments in confined places seem to escalate quickly) and at that time, there was an awareness of no-self as well and hence there was no effort made to defend my view/opinion. What is there to protect? Who does the protection? Nothing/No one. Just life spreading its wings.
I didn't lose my temper this time. Might not be a big achievement, but definitely a subtle but certain change.

Regarding your answer to question 3, How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I can say that there is no self to feel sorry for failures, be regretful for past decisions, be angry for wrong actions

For me, regrets have always been a bugbear. A specific example is not coming out of a relationship hangover (even after marriage). It has haunted me day in day out for years. Almost everyday I felt that I should have made more effort to make things work. Another example is I have regretted a lot when I failed to convert a professional internship to a full time job offer. Everyday I used to think how life would have been different if I had secured that job and I used to blame myself for not working hard enough to secure it.
Now however, there has been a change in perspective along two ways. One, by seeing that living is just in the present and the past is nothing but a memory and maybe a collection of thoughts - which rise and fall with no effort or controller. What is there to feel sorry for, if it is not present reality? Two, who should have made more effort? Worked harder? Am I even in control of the actions I do or the outcomes, however positive the thoughts are and however good the intentions are? Thoughts, intentions themselves neither have a cause nor a subject acting upon them. So what/who is there to blame? Nothing.No one again.
The whole direct pointing exercise has made a change in perspective for good and there's no need to blame any person,self, event, environment or situation and there is no one to make and take the blame.

Regards
Jason

[moondog]

Hi Jason,

Thanks for those replies, which answered most of the existing queries.

You wrote, "because of habitual identification with self (which could be residual energies working) -[this is what I had mentioned as consider myself as a doer, thinker etc.], the illusion of self arises and tries to get defensive and protect itself."

And one of the guides simply wants to know-

Does an illusion of self arise?

Can an illusion get defensive or protect itself?

Can an illusion do anything?

Who or what is identifying with the self?

Here are a few questions from another guide:

She says that you state that things apparently happen through a 'collection of physical body, thought, consciousness, which the carries the label 'Jason'.

'What do you mean experience happens 'through' the above?

Is there a boundary to experience, an inside/outside, so something is being mediated 'through' something else?

Is there actually a 'collection' of anything labelled Jason in direct experience?

Or is that an idea, part of the illusion?'

Pete x

[Toonami]

Hi Pete,

As usual my replies below:

Does an illusion of self arise?

Can an illusion get defensive or protect itself?

Can an illusion do anything?

Who or what is identifying with the self?

Actually nothing arises. There is no one to identify with self. The answer I gave is to explain that sometimes we fail to recognize that we have seen through the illusion of self, especially in the early days. (an example we can quote from our own discussion - once we have seen through that there is no Santa, we don't carry this knowledge or thought always, however when we see Santa in a mall, we know for sure that he is not real). I had taken your question " Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.", as a clarification you wanted to know what is life like before the "seeing that there is no self" phase and I gave that answer.

The only illusion is that "I" exist, which we have seen from direct experience that it is just that - an illusion and not a real entity.

'What do you mean experience happens 'through' the above?
Is there a boundary to experience, an inside/outside, so something is being mediated 'through' something else?
Is there actually a 'collection' of anything labelled Jason in direct experience?

Or is that an idea, part of the illusion?'

Ok I will elaborate this a bit. For experience there are no boundaries - no boundaries between what is seen, the seer etc. The collection named 'Jason' is only for linguistic and societal purposes (but in direct experience it does not exist). So when someone asks 'who died ?', we simply say Jason died - we don't need to explain to the society that actually Jason does not exist, it is just another body and so on. Like death, other events also happens through "Jason' for societal sake.So this is the context in which I said 'it happens through me'.
Which is similar to asking which university did you go to? I would just say 'University of Wollongong' though nothing really exist as such. It is just to make communication simpler.

The whole point of the direct pointing exercise was anyway finding out that there is no 'me'.

Regards
J

[moondog]

Hi Jason,

I'm pleased to say that none of the guides has any further questions for you. They are collectively satisfied that you have seen that there is no self.

I'll get on with getting you turned blue. I'll let LU admin know and they will be in touch with you soon with various info, links etc.

I've really enjoyed guiding you through this process of looking and I'm just really pleased to have been able to help you see through the illusion of a separate self. Go well!


Pete x

[Toonami]

Hi Pete,

Many thanks for your help and I'm pleased likewise and really excited about the future post seeing through phase.

Regards
J