Seeking a Guide : )

[Kallie]

Hello vince,

When you believe something, it is always a thought (about it), right ? (if not, give examples) How does believing work ? What is belief ? What processes occur, when a belief is acted on ?

Yes beliefs are always just thoughts about thoughts.

Yes, a belief is just a thought & it seems like trusting the thought to be true, whether generated on own, book, friend, etc. creates the belief, it is still just a thought. Two people can have an entirely different thought/belief about the same subject & both can become so entrenched in their belief. Many times beliefs can go unquestioned or unchallenged for lifetimes, and if they are questioned or challenged in a he said/she said manner, they might be acted on or reacted to by stubbornly defending and or attacking. It can be seen how both were experienced recently with you. Defending & attacking. Happens on interpersonal levels & larger levels.

There are lots of other examples that could be drawn on what processes might occur when a belief is acted on/reacted to. You love chocolate, eat it like a side dish & then one day someone you respect tells you that chocolate is really bad for you, so you believe it to be true & stop stop eating it. One day you eat it again & you break out in a rash. Did the thought/the new belief cause the bodily sensation/reaction? HELP? How does a thought, elevated to a belief (still a thought) do this? This is an area of great interest

Seems like beliefs can be passed down from generation to generation, as is often seen with religion & politics. Science does seem to always be challenging its latest beliefs, but still all in all, they are always just thoughts, imagination.

Do you have a concept of 'deepening' ? (what we are doing here may induce deepening)

Yes. Almost everyday another layer of the onion is peeled back. Not always fun, but always interesting. Sometimes mind blowing, sometimes exhausting. Thinking about beliefs today triggered an old story which brought a tear to my eye, due to the fact/thought that the old story is being seen in a different light now. Compassion & forgiveness also were experienced (also just thoughts).

You jump over the whole question when you say "Of course,". i was/am not interested in the content of the story. i want to know if you recognize that you are heading off into storyland and that emotions and sensations that ensue are the result of concept.
The emphasis is the recognition that a story line is active.

It is seen that a story line is active & can go back & redo if you would like, but not now, tired, but you advise & it will be given another crack.

Have a great day down under.
Hope Santa is good to you. LOL~ Ho Ho Ho!

Sweet Dreams,
Karen

[Kallie]

Hi vince,

HELP? How does a thought, elevated to a belief (still a thought) do this? This is an area of great interest

Been thinking 'bout this & was elevating a belief to a higher level than any old thought.
Yes, the thought caused the bodily reaction, the body simply reacts to whatever the thought is.
Not sure why belief seemed to carry a higher connotation.

That's it. Maybe question is answered?

Hope you're doing great.
Karen

[vinceschubert]

Gidday Karen, hope your christmas was good too.

Hang in with the questions. Them and the responses they stimulate (in everybody involved) have value. (my story)
This question from another guide;

Been thinking 'bout this & was elevating a belief to a higher level than any old thought.

Are there levels of thought? Where? What other thoughts are on this higher level, that you believe to be true? What makes them truer than other, "lower" thoughts? What elevates them? Are they really true? Have you checked?

this from vince.

Did the thought/the new belief cause the bodily sensation/reaction?

In the direct Experiencing that is being noticed, is it possible to know ?

i have a conceptual hole that i label "The Great Mystery". Every'thing' that is not being noticed in current Experiencing, is in that hole. Out of that hole come stories, some of which are virgins and others that have a chapter on previous outings. This might seem simple, but it allows incredible freedom from ... and incredible freedom to ...

HELP? How does a thought, elevated to a belief (still a thought) do this? This is an area of great interest

Story here is that a belief is a thought that has been given a top level security clearance. The armband it wears says that it is not to be questioned. That it can be obeyed without any consideration of possible consequences. Once it has this clearance it is hardwired into the organism's circuitry and doesn't even take place where the original thoughts were born.

love

vince

[Kallie]

Hi vince,

Yes, santa was kind to karen : )...she's been a very good girl & that's my story & i'm sticking to it!

Ok, here goes:

Kallie wrote:Been thinking 'bout this & was elevating a belief to a higher level than any old thought.

Are there levels of thought? Where? What other thoughts are on this higher level, that you believe to be true? What makes them truer than other, "lower" thoughts? What elevates them? Are they really true? Have you checked?

Keep in mind the story of chocolate was made up as an example of belief for karens process, but there was a wondering of how could this be, the body never before reacted to chocolate, & now it does because someone else suggests that it is “bad” & now it is believed? It felt strange & was immediately seen & question put forth here at LU. It was fortunate that due to delays due to holiday there was ample time for processing & looking at this end to see that yes the thought of false elevation had been seen & definitely questioned by karen. Thru looking at this end, it was concluded that NO there really are no levels of thought. A thought of sadness may provoke a reaction/sensation of tears in the body. A funny thought may produce a laughter response. A thought turned belief may produce a reaction to whatever” that story” is telling.

this from vince.

Kallie wrote:Did the thought/the new belief cause the bodily sensation/reaction?

In the direct Experiencing that is being noticed, is it possible to know ?

vince, karen doesn’t know if it is possible to know anything for sure & there is no discomfort with that thought.
The chocolate story was made up, but in DE a sensation generated in the body by a thought sure seems real, all the senses experienced, but with this looking at thoughts EVERYTHING is being questioned. If everything is thought generated, is anything really real, since they “thoughts” are as changeable as the wind? LOL & down the rabbit hole we go. Red pill or blue pill?

i have a conceptual hole that i label "The Great Mystery". Every'thing' that is not being noticed in current Experiencing, is in that hole. Out of that hole come stories, some of which are virgins and others that have a chapter on previous outings. This might seem simple, but it allows incredible freedom from ... and incredible freedom to ...

Think it is seen what you are saying, about the Great Mystery hole. Makes sense. The void from which all thoughts, ideas, & every “thing” as you say that is not currently being noticed/experienced. This would be the place where the freedom of imagination to create, advancements in technology, science for lack of better words reside, until ready to be expressed, via whatever avenue life chooses ? This would be the place where freedom from the past can be examined & seen for what it is/was?

Kallie wrote:HELP? How does a thought, elevated to a belief (still a thought) do this? This is an area of great interest

Story here is that a belief is a thought that has been given a top level security clearance. The armband it wears says that it is not to be questioned. That it can be obeyed without any consideration of possible consequences. Once it has this clearance it is hardwired into the organism's circuitry and doesn't even take place where the original thoughts were born.

Totally see how a belief is given the armband. Have witnessed it in karen & in others. A thought creates a memory/past. A thought creates an idea/future. A thought creates a belief/fill in the blank.

It is seen that a beliefs can be useful or used in positive or negative ways, still just labels of preference, no?

Can we examine this more please? There is a definite grasping, but let's deepen it if we can : )

Have a great day/night~

As always, many thanks.
With Love,
Karen

[Kallie]

Hi again. Trying this from phone.

i have a conceptual hole that i label "The Great Mystery". Every'thing' that is not being noticed in current Experiencing, is in that hole. Out of that hole come stories, some of which are virgins and others that have a chapter on previous outings. This might seem simple, but it allows incredible freedom from ... and incredible freedom to ...

Think it is seen what you are saying, about the Great Mystery hole. Makes sense. The void from which all thoughts, ideas, & every “thing” as you say that is not currently being noticed/experienced. This would be the place where the freedom of imagination to create, advancements in technology, science for lack of better words reside, until ready to be expressed, via whatever avenue life chooses ? This would be the place where freedom from the past can be examined & seen for what it is/was? As an afterthought lol I might like to add that the freedom of from & to ....whatever avenue life chooses is still life within the illusion, no?

No more phone writing. Thanks Vince.
K

[vinceschubert]

Hi Karen, how do you tell if a thought is a useful one ?
What is real ?

Can we examine this more please?

Who or what wants to examine this more ?

There is a definite grasping,

How is this grasping experienced ?

It is seen that a beliefs can be useful or used in positive or negative ways, still just labels of preference, no?

Do you mean that positive and negative are just labels for preference ?
How is that preference experienced ?

vince

[Kallie]

Hi Vince,

Sorry about the time away. Have had the funk & zero energy. Sleeping a lot.

how do you tell if a thought is a useful one ?

There are clearly practical thoughts that are useful, ie: It is snowing, put your coat on. Want to go on holiday, start saving money. Want to say that anything that takes us away from present not useful. At the same time it seems that innovation & imagination which reside in thoughts about the potential future can be useful, if only for discovery and adding layers to the story.

What is real ?

Right here, right now.

Can we examine this more please?

Who or what wants to examine this more ?

Thought wants to chase thoughts in the never ending layering of story telling.

There is a definite grasping,

How is this grasping experienced ?

Grasping would be by thoughts again.

Kallie wrote:It is seen that a beliefs can be useful or used in positive or negative ways, still just labels of preference, no?

Do you mean that positive and negative are just labels for preference ?
How is that preference experienced ?

Perception would have been a better choice of words. Karen believes bread will make her fat, Vince doesn't share that belief. Perception.

Hope you are well.
Karen

[vinceschubert]

Sorry about the time away.

No worries.

Have had the funk & zero energy. Sleeping a lot.

Would you call this "depression" ?
This would indicate that there is belief in content of thought story happening. Do you find yourself totally caught up in story from time to time ? (or often ?).
When you do, (recognise that you are absorbed in a story line), what happens ?

Karen believes bread will make her fat,

Is this actual ?

vince

[Kallie]

Hi Vince,

No worries.

Thank you~

Kallie wrote:Have had the funk & zero energy. Sleeping a lot.

Would you call this "depression" ?
This would indicate that there is belief in content of thought story happening. Do you find yourself totally caught up in story from time to time ? (or often ?).
When you do, (recognise that you are absorbed in a story line), what happens ?

No. Not depression. Fever.

Depression has been experienced and yes it was seen that it was a total thought story/fantasy happening. Used to see it (depression)in other people & thought of it a as a belief in separation, lol, & then karen too got caught up in a story, lost way & experienced depression. Vince, I realize the story lines & noticed & wondered if my prior depression & negative thought patterns may have contributed to the eventual diagnosis of cancer, though I was free from depression at diagnosis & as strong as an ox physically. Since karen noticed the possibility of thoughts creating the body issues, she accepted responsibility, and looked at all of the old stories & was able to see them as just that old stories, old ideas, fantasies, there were quite a few. Today, it is seen that all of those old, old stories were delusions of separation & looking for love in all the wrong places, so to speak, family, husband, there were ideas of just how things should be carried out & those ideas if not executed according to my story, caused a lot of suffering. Today there is a lot of gratitude for being given the opportunity to see things very differently. There is no anger, no resentment for the past or present.

Kallie wrote:Karen believes bread will make her fat,

Is this actual ?

No, just an example of how different "people" can believe/perceive things differently.
karen likes bread a lot: preference.

Oh vince~ sigh~ Have a great day/night. Thanks for your continued effort.
Karen

[vinceschubert]

Thanks for your continued effort.

no worries (and no effort).
vince has no investment in an outcome. It's just life presenting Karen...
Karen, answer these questions again, but be really conscious of answering them from the perspective of Experiencing. Don't reference your previous answers and don't philosophise. Do consider all aspects of each question.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

vince

[Kallie]

vince,

Wow, I can't believe so many days have lapsed. Slept did taxes slept some more : ) Didn't scroll back. Here we go.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there is no separate self, me, I at all, in any way, shape or form, nor has there ever been.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

See it starting when we are very young children, with labeling by others as being smart, stupid, pretty, ugly. Given a name/label to identify with. karen was fortunate to not have grown up in a very religious household, so i was not loaded down with beliefs before i understood what the words meant, in other words, i was allowed to wonder. The program called karen was however loaded with conflicting expectations on what she was & what she should be. These, expectations, labels can stay with us a lifetime, until we look, if we ever look. From the karen saga enough pain had to be present for real inquiry to really begin. To begin to see that all of that stuff i was carrying around was old baggage, memories often painful but gone, to learn to let go, to realize they were nothing but old stories, made up by someone else, but i believing them. To learn that all that is real exists only now. Have seen for awhile the physical illusion of separation, ie: if all is God/Life, is there anywhere where it is not & the answer is no. So for me, not only did that mean that there is no separation between karen & God/Life & since that is the case then it could not be otherwise for anyone or anything else, whether it is noticed or not. We’re all it, Life/God expressing in it’s many manifestations. If we all knew & were able to look & see, would we continue to harm others, which when we do so we are essentially harming ourSELF? karen used to think she could fix anyone, anything. Now she sees there is nothing to fix, Life/God is flowing just as it should.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days

Seeing is freeing & although there were suspicions about the world kinda being a racket, this dialogue produced the kind of seeing that cannot be unseen. It is difficult to take anything seriously for to long now once it is seen that every last thing in this world is just one big made up story, every last single bit of it. Less attachment to outcomes. On one hand it can be seen as meaningless & what’s the point & could be labeled as rather depressing. On the other hand it can seen as, why not make up stories? The possibilities are endless in the grand story & life when it is seen for what it is, makes it rich & juicy & interesting at the very least. Are our seemingly individualized experiences simply random occurrences or are they tied together in some dynamic divine plan? Don’t know, don’t need to know.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Undoubtedly the pain from brother saying goodbye upon diagnosis pushed me onto the path of serious inquiry. Further along the path the part that made me look even deeper was the ridiculousness that was seen before i wound up here at LU that i had control over my thoughts, & taking responsibility for my thoughts & all. i had already seen no self / oneness from a physical perspective but had difficulties with thoughts & exactly where they fit in & felt the picture was not complete, so although i technically quit inquiry, was taking a break, it was short lived as LU appeared that very same day & more intense looking started. Kind of meant to be? It has been here at LU where the concept that there is no ownership of or control of thoughts became quite clear thru DE exercises. Life pointed here.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

No. There is no me to decide anything, intend, choose or control any events in Life. If there was an I, a me to decide, to choose, to control it wouldn’t have chosen body issues, but they are here & really seeing that there is no me, there is nothing to try to do. Life/God is in charge & the only thing to do is accept what is. There is also a trusting present now, that life does take care of life & all is well, even when labels say otherwise.

6) Anything to add?

There has been a definite shift on this end, from a perspective as things are seen. It is hoped the shift is long lasting. Nothing else has changed. Body still fluctuates in energy. Emotions still come up & thoughts still come & go as they please.

Thanks as always,
k

[vinceschubert]

Hello Karen

if all is God/Life, is there anywhere where it is not & the answer is no. So for me, not only did that mean that there is no separation between karen & God/Life & since that is the case then it could not be otherwise for anyone or anything else, whether it is noticed or not. We’re all it, Life/God expressing in it’s many manifestations.

Karen, are you identifying with God/Life ?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

You didn't give any examples from your experience for this one.

There has been a definite shift on this end, from a perspective as things are seen. It is hoped the shift is long lasting.

What if it is not ? Isn't impermanence an inherent characteristic of everything ?
Once the sleight of hand is revealed, can the trick ever be seen the same again ?

vince

[Kallie]

Hi vince,

Kallie wrote: if all is God/Life, is there anywhere where it is not & the answer is no. So for me, not only did that mean that there is no separation between karen & God/Life & since that is the case then it could not be otherwise for anyone or anything else, whether it is noticed or not. We’re all it, Life/God expressing in it’s many manifestations.


Karen, are you identifying with God/Life ?

Not sure what the question is. Identifying with life as something separate? No. Please clarify if possible.

vinceschubert wrote:5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

You didn't give any examples from your experience for this one.

Thought i did in regards that if there was an I, me, self that controls, intends, chooses, it would not have selected body issues. A different kind of example might be who/what decides when it is time to roll over in bed? Nothing. It just happens. Signal from mouth says thirsty, take some water, it is automatic. The ever elusive decision maker may choose coffee over tea, but it, the decision maker could not be called, I, me, self. It performs its function processing billions of bits of data in order to run the show of karen.

Kallie wrote:There has been a definite shift on this end, from a perspective as things are seen. It is hoped the shift is long lasting.

What if it is not ? Isn't impermanence an inherent characteristic of everything ?
Once the sleight of hand is revealed, can the trick ever be seen the same again ?

Definitely gotcha on this. Yes, impermanence is an inherent character of everything & no, the trick as you say can never be seen the same again, even if the cage gets rattled as it might do, even if we take the bait & buy into a story, there is an underlying knowing now, that it is all just a story created by thought.

Hope all is well & as always thanks for your time.
k

[vinceschubert]

Karen, some questions from other guides...

"Karen was fortunate... I was allowed to wonder"
Who/What is this Karen that was fortunate?
How is "fortunate" experienced in Direct Experiencing?
Who/What was allowed to wonder?

"to learn to let go, to realize they were nothing but old stories... but i believing them"
Who/What can let go?
Who/What is realizing?
Who/What is/was believing them?

"If we all knew & were able to look & see, would we continue to harm others, which when we do so we are essentially harming ourSELF?"
You're veering way off into theoretical stuff again here. Who/What are all the "we"s who know, look, see, harm?

"It is difficult to take anything seriously for to long now once it is seen that every last thing in this world is just one big made up story, every last single bit of it."
Is Direct Experiencing just a story? Or are you intellectualizing all of experience into a belief in which everything including Direct Experiencing can be written off?

"On one hand it can be seen as meaningless & what’s the point & could be labeled as rather depressing. On the other hand it can seen as, why not make up stories? The possibilities are endless in the grand story & life when it is seen for what it is, makes it rich & juicy & interesting at the very least."
Is Direct Experiencing depressing?
Are stories required for life to be rich and interesting?
On one hand, on the other hand... Is it really one or the other?
What about what's not on either hand?

"Are our seemingly individualized experiences simply random occurrences or are they tied together in some dynamic divine plan?"
How is this an answer to "How does it feel to see this?" More thinking, more conjecture.

"although i technically quit inquiry"
Really? Who/What did?

love

vince

[Kallie]

vince,

Just a quick note to let you know this will be replied to asap, just not now, to much going on & tired.

love,
k