Locustafiera requesting guide

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Locustafiera requesting guide

Postby Hannah B-T » Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:17 am

Understanding now. Perspective now, now, now, now, now......
Permanent?
Do you mean now...now..now..as i was using it, or
now... and in 10minutes...and in 3 hours...and tomorrow morning... and next year?
can you see the difference?
Looking makes no sense because everything is right here right now. If it is not here, now, it doesn't exist. This is lighter than before. It's like looking just ran out of gas and disappeared, and its absence is simply a shedding of some useless, frantic, pointless worry.
Looking happens or it doesn't, and either is fine, but yes, this happens.
I sometimes say
'i literally bored myself to death...' ;)
Tenderness is a directly experienced sensation no? How else to describe it?
ok language is limited, we know that, but was just exploring these descriptions.

What is emotion in direct experience?
Seems a single 'thought' is experienced, as in known, at a time. But knowing of a thought is thinking too, so really there are no thoughts, just thinking, constantly. To identify a thought is to cut up thinking into artificial packets. Thoughts in words are already thoughts made out of thoughts. It quickly coagulates. Here's a thought, therefore there's a thought about a thought. And possibly thinking about the thought of a thought. After that, who cares already?
LOL! Enjoyed this.
What cares indeed?
The destination is, ironically, this and not this because destination is an idea. There's nowhere to go, nowhere to possibly be, other than here, now.
:)
What is the gate imagined to be?

A new understanding. Some Truth.
Ahh...the truth with a capital T.

So answer me this...why do they call it the 'gateless gate?'
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Locustafiera
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Re: Locustafiera requesting guide

Postby Locustafiera » Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:26 pm

---Permanent?

The promise is; 'once seen cannot be unseen'. Give it a label of 'permanent' or don't - does it really matter? Light bulb comes on, stays on. Or, belief in self vanishes, stays vanished.

Can I see the difference between 'now...now...now' and future points in time? Not sure, unless it is simply that future points in time don't exist. The 'Free beers tomorrow' theme.

---What is emotion in direct experience?

Physical sensations and thoughts.

---Why is it called the gateless gate?

I suppose it's because there is an apparent paradox. While the belief in self is present, the gate is an idea that represents a line to cross, a portal to enter, something to attain. But once the illusion of self is seen through, it's also seen that there can have been no-one at the gate trying to pass through. And a gate that is used by no-one is no gate at all.
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LocustaFiera

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Locustafiera requesting guide

Postby Hannah B-T » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:26 pm

so...

Has the lightbulb come on?!
But once the illusion of self is seen through, it's also seen that there can have been no-one at the gate trying to pass through. And a gate that is used by no-one is no gate at all.
So...
Is the illusion seen through?

Any doubting thoughts still coming up that would be useful to look at? Or are they resolving themselves now without this dialogue?
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Locustafiera requesting guide

Postby Hannah B-T » Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:00 pm

Take a look at this latest blog post from Ilona, think you might find it useful re the above.

http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Locustafiera
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Re: Locustafiera requesting guide

Postby Locustafiera » Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:46 pm

Thanks. This is taking a little while - been on the road....
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LocustaFiera

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Locustafiera
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Re: Locustafiera requesting guide

Postby Locustafiera » Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:04 pm

OK, formulating this response has been a bit of a struggle but right now the following seems correct. Please read it all before responding.

There has been pendulum-like instability. The desire to keep seeking was seeming to come back strongly at times, but in a kind of desperate way, like something trying to hang on, in disbelief that it could be so straightforward. At present that desire is absent. It can also feel like things are 'back to normal' in the sense of 'nothing has happened' during this process, and grief that 'my spiritual quest is over', failed, rudely exposed, a mistake. The peak experience is a rapidly fading memory. Crazy stuff comes up like 'Hannah has destroyed my quest' even. But also the quest seems no longer relevant, finished in the sense that it has been satisfied, and the path found.
And there is thinking about what has changed, which is quite a lot. There seems to be a parallel or underlying stream in experience, which is constantly perceiving, evaluating experience from a new perspective. And there is a calmness now, a peace. Not blissful, just settled.
The instability previously seemed always to swing and stick back at how things were as default. Now for the first time it seems the swinging happens but the default is to settle in the new position.
There are a few things that it seems right to finish off. Some questions that went unanswered. I will post these soon, but am interested in your response to the above.
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LocustaFiera

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Locustafiera requesting guide

Postby Hannah B-T » Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:57 pm

my response is that was beautiful honesty. In what way was it a struggle to write?

I also had some very strong reactions, mainly towards the Buddhist community I was in- along the lines of

THAT'S IT!??
10 years sitting on a sodding cushion and here it was all along?!
Why didn't anyone tell me! (of course the pointers had been everywhere LOL)
What about all the promised bliss, the 'transcendental' , becoming that perfect compassionate kind loving person (doh!)
there's just this?
What the hell happens now then!?

etc etc
When these are seen as just thoughts, just part of the story, the dropping away of all the old expectation thoughts...no problem though is there? :)

There was a huge storyline here about the 'spiritual battle'/ being a 'spiritual warrior', to 'over come the self'
Then it was seen as total and utter BS.
there was never a battle!
i mean what could possibly battle what?
It was just an idea...
What relief! Laughter. Tears flowed.

The 'seeker'/seeking energy was the last to go. It still kicks it's heels sometimes, then thoughts ask- what's the problem here? Is there one outside of thoughts? Where is being headed towards? Away from?
And what exactly is imagined to be going there?

Someone said to me- seeking likes seeking...why would it want to actually find the answer? That would be the death of seeking! that resonated.
And there is thinking about what has changed, which is quite a lot. There seems to be a parallel or underlying stream in experience, which is constantly perceiving, evaluating experience from a new perspective. And there is a calmness now, a peace. Not blissful, just settled.
Yes. That has deepened already beyond anything these thoughts had or could have imagined...
i like to call this 'the peace that passes all understanding'.
Now for the first time it seems the swinging happens but the default is to settle in the new position.
Have you heard of the Buddhist model of 'stream entry'?
It fits with what you describe above.
This is just the start...
But it's a whole new ball game...
There are a few things that it seems right to finish off. Some questions that went unanswered. I will post these soon
looking forward to them.
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Locustafiera
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Re: Locustafiera requesting guide

Postby Locustafiera » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:05 pm

It was only a struggle because the pendulum was in full swing. Once it had settled that all just flowed out.

The THAT'S IT? response is more than understandable after 10 years. Lucky for some to have stopped here after only 6 months 'on the cushion'.
Even so, THAT'S IT? also features after only 6 months. But there is the other side of THAT'S IT?, which is more like 'ooooo....deep...in ways that keep becoming new' :-).

Seeking likes seeking - yes! It's everywhere it seems, endless cycles of analysis, all because of a misunderstanding. Funny and sad.

I'll get to those questions soon, but just wanted to share this; was reading a book (not spiritual). and found this quote worthy paragraph, whose complete faux pas would have sailed right past not so long ago;

'Each of us really does have a matrix in our brain. This is because our brains are constructing simulations or stories to make sense of our experiences because we have no direct contact with reality.'

No direct contact with reality! ROFL!
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LocustaFiera

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Locustafiera
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Re: Locustafiera requesting guide

Postby Locustafiera » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:13 am

Oh and yes I have read of stream entry. Think it's the entrance to the first path in the Theravada tradition - I thought one had to experience a 'fruition', cessation of reality, to get stream entry.
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LocustaFiera

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Locustafiera
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Re: Locustafiera requesting guide

Postby Locustafiera » Wed Jan 01, 2014 5:32 am

Happy New Year Hannah.

OK. It seems there is just one question that felt a little bit unfinished.

You wrote;

How many thoughts are being experienced right now?
Is there an outside of right now?
So how many thoughts can be inquired into?
Seeing this is mind bogglingly, totally ordinarily, un-dramatic, simplicity.
-----
What was it that was mind bogglingly simple?
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LocustaFiera

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Locustafiera requesting guide

Postby Hannah B-T » Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:39 pm

Seeing this is mind bogglingly, totally ordinarily, un-dramatic, simplicity.
Take a look back at page 3? was it. Feel 'under/around' the content of the words- to the tone and energy of that part of the dialogue...then look at the above sentence again..

I asked you the standard questions then...are they ready to be answered now?

If so, just take a deep breath.
ignore the chat about models, paths, in the end it's all second hand rubbish that these thoughts have picked up to make a new story about a spiritual journey...
take another look into direct sensory experience right now, outside of the story. real...unreal...who cares?
and just see what expression emerges from there...
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Locustafiera
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Re: Locustafiera requesting guide

Postby Locustafiera » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:43 pm

OK, answers to questions are being prepared.
In the meantime, is there any chance of a little expansion on these mouthwatering remarks?

'That has deepened already beyond anything these thoughts had or could have imagined...'

and

'That's a whole new ball game...'

Or some pointers to how things are best deepened, and the 'new ball game' played? ....
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LocustaFiera

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Locustafiera requesting guide

Postby Hannah B-T » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:30 am

It'll unfold however it unfolds right? And this is stuff discussed in aftercare.
Telling 'my' story or what that apparently has looked like, not really useful...

But it pretty much boils down to:
let the questioning of everything begin! (these thoughts used to say- 'it's all gotta go baby!')...
of every single thought, every single belief, everything that is imagined to be known.
This feels like a radical and ongoing 'unlearning'.
an unfolding...
an unravelling...
a 'burning up'...

by 'question' i mean not looking for and grasping onto more concepts of thought to explain or refute the original concepts, but just looking again into the whole experience that is (apparently lol) happening right now -and seeing if that thought/idea/belief that has popped up refers to anything that is going on? or is it just more unicorns and Santa Claus?

Here's the questions again:
1)Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2)Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it
worksfrom your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3)How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this
dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4)What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5)Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.

6)Anything to add?
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Locustafiera
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Re: Locustafiera requesting guide

Postby Locustafiera » Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:43 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me', 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no separate, real entity 'self' anywhere and there never was. There is only an imagined entity 'self' in thought.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of self is a belief that develops in a human that it is a distinct entity, separate from other selves and other things; an entity that owns a physical body and a 'life' - a portion of reality for which the imagined self is believed to be responsible.
No such separate 'self' entity can be found in reality - the self is in fact an idea, a belief, a fictitious element in the model of reality embedded in language.

Human beings are born as babies with no sense of self. They are normally born with a functioning set of sense organs and a few instinctive behavioural patterns, such as the suckling instinct, and crying in response to certain sensations, but otherwise no distinctions concerning the structure of reality. As the baby develops it begins to learn the cultural distinctions shared by adults in the same environment, specifically those embedded in language, which provides a common method for mapping out or modelling reality. As the baby learns a language it starts to distinguish as 'things' the real world features represented by nouns, and conventions for the way 'things' relate to other 'things' are provided by other grammatical elements of the language.
Language also features abstract nouns for which there are no concrete real world features, things such as those that fall into the categories of concept, emotion, and belief.
One such abstraction is the concept of self. The belief in self is established as the child learns language constructs that encapsulate the idea of self, such as 'I', 'me', 'mine', 'you', 'yours'.
So reality is perceived via the senses and organised by the brain using language into a mental map concerning what kinds of stuff exists and how different kinds of stuff relate to one another. Beliefs are fundamental to the mapping technology. They are a kind of thought that is soft wired into the brain's equivalent of the computer's virtual memory - they become rules in the human operating system.

The belief in self develops as the central feature of the map of reality, probably for socio-political reasons. Human societies form around morality models and pecking orders that require a belief in self in order to function. Wealth, status and power need to be attached to something, and imaginary entities need some perceived value to distinguish them from other imaginary entities, just like Santa, gods, superheroes, universities, governments, corporations etc.
Attributes such as skill and personality are assigned to the self. These attributes represent valuables worthy of protection. Free will is implicit in the self centred model - the self has to be 'in control' to be credible as a repository of valuable attributes.
And there it is. The illusion of self in all it's false glory is paraded about, accumulating illusory allies and symbols of status.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There is an underlying or parallel stream of thought that constantly evaluates and perceives situations in a new context, from a new perspective. That new perspective is best described as 'knowledge' that the idea of self is an illusion. Thoughts of I, me and mine still occur, but they are seen for what they are, just thoughts about the imaginary self.
There is a new sense of calm and belonging. The belonging comes from the knowledge that since there is no separate self to be responsible and in control, all things must be just as they were meant to be - there is no-one and nothing to be wrong, no-one who has to be right, no-one and nothing to be accepted or rejected, no-one to screw up and nothing that needs to make an impression. And there is nothing outside of reality looking in, trying to be a part of it in the right way. It all just IS.
Thinking is happening but anything that would previously have caused emotional pain is being recognised as thought content and sensation, for example feelings that would previously have been interpreted unequivocally as personal anger or impatience or embarrassment are being perceived in this new way. It has recently become impossible to feel offended.
Communication with others is more crisp and effortless. There is more spontaneity and relaxation.
Sometimes, especially when in natural surroundings, there is a lovely and complete sense of unity with the environment, a sense of being integral to reality, rather than a lone, separate being experiencing it somewhat remotely.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It seemed there was an initial and intense realisation that occurred on
being shown the recursive nature of inquiry, i.e. that the seeker who could not find a self was the same self that couldn't be found.

The rest of the discussion focused on removing various doubts that arose following that.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your own experience.

There is no-one here to decide, intend, choose, control or make anything happen.

7) Anything to add?

This paragraph, an Elena quote from the Gateless Gatecrashers book, is a great summary;

'There is no separation, no entity. So all your life now this paradox is trying to resolve itself. This is the suffering - the turmoil of dissatisfaction, of seeking, of feeling incomplete, of the feeling of something missing. That's where it comes from. That's what's driving it. That, that only.'

And -

Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou. This is an amazing place.
Best

LocustaFiera

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Locustafiera requesting guide

Postby Hannah B-T » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:25 pm

Loving the responses!

Have presented the thread to the other guides- in case there are any more questions that pop up from them-
in the meantime- it would be great to see for question 5 a few day to day examples that have occurred over the last few days/week, which could illustrate the change in the way this is experienced now. (the second part of the question)- thanks
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)


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