Requesting a guide

[Cheryl]

Hi D,
Having a rough start this morning, lots of emotional stuff coming up and difficult to focus on anything in particular. it seems everywhere 'i' turns there is some sadness. i tried sitting longer with some of the experiments and i either fell asleep or got totally frustrated. i'll work with this more. haven't quite given up yet :)

[Devina]

Hi Cheryl. Here's something: Is the observation of the sadness also sad? Good to hear you're keeping on with things. Hugs.

[Cheryl]

Hi Cheryl. Here's something: Is the observation of the sadness also sad? Good to hear you're keeping on with things. Hugs.

No observation is not sad, sadness has dissipated. observing eating, no decisions being made, when to pick up fork, when to insert food in mouth, when to put down fork. series of actions take place while other thinking goes on in the mind. no feeling right now of any sort of magical 'not doing' but only recognition, watching fingers, head looks up etc.
thinking going on abt this lack of doership, no owner. conscious thinking and actions are taking place that seem separate from one another. thoughts popping up, doing popping up. often there is intention to accomplish a task and it gets done. just not sure how anymore. how does body know what to do? science says signal sent thru nervous system etc. but who the hell gives the signal? hahhah!

[Devina]

No observation is not sad, sadness has dissipated. observing eating, no decisions being made, when to pick up fork, when to insert food in mouth, when to put down fork. series of actions take place while other thinking goes on in the mind. no feeling right now of any sort of magical 'not doing' but only recognition, watching fingers, head looks up etc.

Pretty cool! It's amazing more people don't notice what's going on all along!

how does body know what to do? science says signal sent thru nervous system etc. but who the hell gives the signal? hahhah!

Well, if every signal comes from this trigger, it should be pretty easy to look back and figure out where it came from. Pick any event and investigate it - sitting, typing, sounds, rainbows, anything. If a single source for an event can't be found somewhere inside, look for other triggers.

[Cheryl]

If a single source for an event can't be found somewhere inside, look for other triggers.

Do you mean 'somewhere inside' as inside Cheryl? or inside the object or event?

[Devina]

Inside the body. ("Is there an inside?" is another neat question, but let's look at this for now.) It can apply equally to other things as well - do any objects have selfs inside them?

[Cheryl]

Inside the body. ("Is there an inside?" is another neat question, but let's look at this for now.) It can apply equally to other things as well - do any objects have selfs inside them?

there can never be a single source. in sitting direct experience indicates nothing. one could say well if there wee nothing to sit on then the sitting wouldn't happen, but even then where did the chair come from? its single source? even down to the atom!

no, nothing has a self inside, nothing has a defineable absolute beginning . hearing talking, where sites the sounds originate? vocal chords, ans then flesh, blood abd so on.

[Devina]

Can anything happen differently than it does?

There's a pretty good intellectual understanding here so far, but keep observing - what is observing? Anything? You?

Does anything exist with an identity... other than in thought? What sensations come up from that, and is anything feeling them?

[Cheryl]

Can anything happen differently than it does?

*No, of course not. funny this question came today because everyone was offloading packages today from a UPS truck that was in total disarray and 3 hours later than usual with a trainee driving. The warehouse manager (who also happens to be a good friend) was up in arms because of it, saying “ they shoulda, they shoulda etc.” and I told him he needs to accept what is happening right now in this moment because it can’t be any different than what it is. He was like “no, no, no if they had..” and I was like “this moment that’s happening right now, u can’t do anything to change why make yourself miserable abt it?” he finally agreed and calmed down. 

There's a pretty good intellectual understanding here so far, but keep observing - what is observing? Anything? You?

*Yes, I agree that intellectual understanding is here and will keep observing. Observing is happening like everything else that happens. It’s so weird to say nothing is observing because observing is going on and we’re taught that there must be some sort of entity doing the observing even if this it is mechanical. This observing happens, and then thought comes in and starts a story. I watched this morning as each person got on the bus and a story was created (even a slight story). What was creating the story? Just thinking happening. The more attention given to the story the longer it became, but I can’t even say why more attention was given, but there wasn’t really anything there to give attention. Seemed more like thoughts playing off of one another? There is nothing I can point to that was observing. Before I would have said that it was me/myself doing the observing but there’s nothing there. everytime i look, nothing.

Last night was chatting with a friend about the holiday season and relating about the frustration etc. also about the family Christmases of the past. And it struck me that this is one of the ways the story of Cheryl carries forward; in telling tales of the ‘past’ and relating them to the ‘present’. There’s this habit of always relating what IS to the past or future.
EVERYTHING seems to be given a story. Only when there is an explicit focus on just observing does story not pop up. Even that’s not exactly true because story does try to pop up but somehow there can be the ability to not follow; to just observe thru senses.

Does anything exist with an identity... other than in thought? What sensations come up from that, and is anything feeling them?

*No, nothing exists with identity –other than in thought. Its interesting to notice others caught up in their identity story. Including my adult daughter’s own identity with suffering, anxieties.. seeing how she recreates this story everyday but doesn’t realize it. Even when ‘happiness’ seems to arrive, there is always suffering waiting in the wings; she says ‘x is happening now but I know in a few days it will probably be like y’..

There is a subtle feeling of relief, but it’s just that the story of Cheryl feels like there is relief . Not having to have an identity. Looking at old photos/videos on puter of Cheryl last night and being struck by the ways I tried to create one and then the latest one that of spiritual seeker.
There’s always this nothing there, just here. In thinking about experiencing being obscured by thinking, maybe that’s just a thought too. Maybe some sort of remembering has to happen to in order to sort of come back out of the story that the experiencing is being given?

[Cheryl]

Wow, stepping away from spiritual teachings etc during this process, becoming quite clear how this whole new identity that didn't think it was an identity has formed. that of the spiritual seeker, i mean. but perhaps without this identity formation what is happening at this moment couldn't have happened. Even the teacher warns (?) about this but didn't see it so clearly. Its not a huge deal, its no different than any other identity i've tried on.. same sense of doing something different, something special. more mind shenanigans. :D

[Devina]

There is a subtle feeling of relief, but it’s just that the story of Cheryl feels like there is relief .

Can a story feel anything? (This can actually be looked at, in experience...)

Maybe some sort of remembering has to happen to in order to sort of come back out of the story that the experiencing is being given?

Maybe. Can there be a self without an imagined personal history? Is the story being told even factual? That is, could the same events be interpreted completely differently?

Is there a story now about no-self?

[Cheryl]

There is a subtle feeling of relief, but it’s just that the story of Cheryl feels like there is relief .

Can a story feel anything? (This can actually be looked at, in experience...)

in saying 'the story of Cheryl' there is recognition of the fiction of I. and a sense that all of the emotions/feelings associated with it are based in fiction as well. ah, ok that is intellectual.

honestly not sure how to go abt checking thru direct experience to see if this is true...

[Cheryl]

"Maybe. Can there be a self without an imagined personal history? Is the story being told even factual? That is, could the same events be interpreted completely differently?"

I don't know, maybe there could be. I mean if someone had some sort of total amnesia it could appear that there would be some sense of a self there, if only because of their body in space.
I doubt that the story being told is factual because there can be such a warped perception. I know this intellectually but can't think of an example where something happened to me and I had a different take on it than what actually happened, I mean everyone else would be seeing from different perspective as well? who could have the actual facts?

(btw, am answering this from my phone so quote function isn't doing what I wasn't it to)

[Cheryl]

in looking to see if there is a 'story of no-self' forming, is hard to tell. I don't think so but could be wrong.

[Cheryl]

I just saw the story and how I thought I absolutely KNEW the facts but later they were incorrect. my friend Melissa was just talking about mate (at their house this weekend) and I said that I'd never had it before what does it taste like?. and she said 'yes you did I made it one time' and I said I have no recollection of that whatsoever. she said 'you're the only one who liked it.' it was at least a decade ago.