Guidance needed

[Sarah7]

Hi Colin

I guess you are saying here that this process is similar to an old habit being broken. I’ve certainly had lots of habits and beliefs going or changing over the years. Often the effort to eradicate them was counter-productive; they just faded away in their own time.

Exactly. Look for this already. Have you read my quote at the bottom of each of my posts?

I don’t think that I’m smiling or laughing. Perhaps a little confused when it becomes apparent that thoughts are not such a great tool for interpreting reality. Yes, it leaves me wondering what else is there?

There is only this. With or without thoughts. Thoughts are the ones that want everything solved, bagged, labelled and explained. Without thoughts doing that – things are still as they are. Look for this please – don’t take my word for it.

Not identifying with thoughts seems totally opposite to what I’ve spent a lifetime doing. It feels like if this could be seen clearly then that would remove a lot of life’s apparent problems.

Is there resentment here? Time wasted?
'Problems' created by thoughts again? Underneath that thought there is still only this. Again – it starts with the seeing.

It must be my illusory thoughts of a separate self, can’t be anyone else wanting all these things. He feels really good when there are methods and practices suggested. Even when there are no methods, he conceptualizes the ‘no method method’. But of course it’s just thoughts followed by more thoughts with their incessant desire for change and pleasant sensations.

Yes. Cloud watching Colin – lots of lovely clouds! As you stated earlier if one goes to war with what is, it is counter-productive. Can thoughts hurt? What could they hurt? What really do thoughts ‘do’? Can they control anything?
Much love Sarah xx

[Colinm]

Hi Sarah,

Exactly. Look for this already. Have you read my quote at the bottom of each of my posts?

There is only this. With or without thoughts. Thoughts are the ones that want everything solved, bagged, labelled and explained. Without thoughts doing that – things are still as they are. Look for this please – don’t take my word for it.

That quote seems to sum up what you are emphasising here, that things are as they are regardless of whatever is happening with thoughts. It seems that the main obstacle is our habitual focus on thought, but that too is just something arising and passing in what is. To see it as an obstacle is just more thought labels and judgements, but even those thought labels are just overlayed on what is here now!

Is there resentment here? Time wasted?
'Problems' created by thoughts again? Underneath that thought there is still only this. Again – it starts with the seeing.

No resentment really, more like weariness. Yes, those mind made problems again, constantly returning to the thoughts and simply believing their content. Still only this. It may take a lot of seeing to whittle away that habit.

Yes. Cloud watching Colin – lots of lovely clouds! As you stated earlier if one goes to war with what is, it is counter-productive. Can thoughts hurt? What could they hurt? What really do thoughts ‘do’? Can they control anything?

Can thoughts hurt? They are often followed by sensations and more thought labels about my pain, my sadness. But so what? If I’m just a thought label too, like part of the stream of thoughts, then it’s all just coming and going in this moment. Perhaps the thought of ‘me’ is followed by a tightening or tensing, in an effort to control thoughts and feelings, or nullify the sensations. Seeing this process and just letting it all flow seems to allow a much more vivid experience of reality.

Love Colin

[Sarah7]

Hi Colin

That quote seems to sum up what you are emphasising here, that things are as they are regardless of whatever is happening with thoughts. It seems that the main obstacle is our habitual focus on thought, but that too is just something arising and passing in what is. To see it as an obstacle is just more thought labels and judgements, but even those thought labels are just overlayed on what is here now!

YES! Look and check for yourself.

No resentment really, more like weariness. Yes, those mind made problems again, constantly returning to the thoughts and simply believing their content. Still only this. It may take a lot of seeing to whittle away that habit.

OK. Have a look at that weariness. Remember the exercise I gave you a while ago – about looking at the sensation of the labelled emotion (was it stress?????). Strip away the layers of weariness and look beneath the labels and story. Weariness – is it a story created by thoughts?

Can thoughts hurt? They are often followed by sensations and more thought labels about my pain, my sadness. But so what? If I’m just a thought label too, like part of the stream of thoughts, then it’s all just coming and going in this moment. Perhaps the thought of ‘me’ is followed by a tightening or tensing, in an effort to control thoughts and feelings, or nullify the sensations. Seeing this process and just letting it all flow seems to allow a much more vivid experience of reality.

Yes. Sit with this seeing – watch the coming and going and see that for story too.

How are you feeling – any confusions coming up, expectations, doubt – anything you still feel unsure of?
Much love Sarah xx

[Colinm]

Hi Sarah,

OK. Have a look at that weariness. Remember the exercise I gave you a while ago – about looking at the sensation of the labelled emotion (was it stress?????). Strip away the layers of weariness and look beneath the labels and story. Weariness – is it a story created by thoughts?

Sensations are just sensations, so any label would have to be a thought story. It’s interesting with strong negative emotions where there is a sense of trying to hold back the energy, keeping the flood gates closed. The emotions seems to need the attention to be firmly held on the thoughts and labels in order to sustain their intensity.

How are you feeling – any confusions coming up, expectations, doubt – anything you still feel unsure of?

It feels like I’ve acquired an intellectual understanding of this process, although that sounds like just a thought story with no more value than all the other thought stories. I certainly wouldn’t say that I’ve got it in an experiential way. Anyway, I’ll just keep plugging away at it. I guess I can’t even hope for a breakthrough, as that would be an expectation! Maybe I should just forget all the mind games and be here now.

Love Colin

[Sarah7]

Hi Colin

Sensations are just sensations, so any label would have to be a thought story. It’s interesting with strong negative emotions where there is a sense of trying to hold back the energy, keeping the flood gates closed. The emotions seems to need the attention to be firmly held on the thoughts and labels in order to sustain their intensity.

Yes. There is an avoidance of all things labelled bad, a need to get rid of them. And yes the thoughts like attention. What happens when the attention goes elsewhere for you?

It feels like I’ve acquired an intellectual understanding of this process, although that sounds like just a thought story with no more value than all the other thought stories. I certainly wouldn’t say that I’ve got it in an experiential way. Anyway, I’ll just keep plugging away at it. I guess I can’t even hope for a breakthrough, as that would be an expectation! Maybe I should just forget all the mind games and be here now.

Yes indeed! Is there a you for the forgetting to happen too or not? Do you see a ‘you’ controlling anything?
The intellectual feeling of understanding does seem like another story or concept but is there a sense of knowing anywhere for you now? Or a sense of a shift with anything? When you sit quietly how is it? Or in the traffic coming home? How are you experiencing the ‘now’ now?
Joking aside – the breakthrough – is it wanted still? Would that be a story again created by thought – ‘you haven’t had one so you haven’t got it yet’ – kind of thing?

Im here to point for as long as you are unsure. However when you are, we have other guides check to see if I/we have missed something, just to make sure there is nothing left un seen. We also have facebook sites where we offer aftercare. Just in case its needed and Im there too!
Much love Sarah xx

[Colinm]

Hi Sarah,

Yes. There is an avoidance of all things labelled bad, a need to get rid of them. And yes the thoughts like attention. What happens when the attention goes elsewhere for you?

If the emotions are less intense, they may disappear instantly when the attention moves elsewhere. More intense emotions are not inclined to let the attention go without a fight. If it does break free, then thought labels weaken and the emotion may become just a lingering sensation.

Yes indeed! Is there a you for the forgetting to happen too or not? Do you see a ‘you’ controlling anything?

There is an apparent ‘me’ up until the forgetting happens. If attention moves away from the thoughts, then the apparent ‘me’ is no longer noticed, of course. It’s like one of those ‘baby with the bathwater’ situations.
Is there a ‘me’ controlling anything? Well a thought label can’t control anything. The idea of control seems to involve a tensing of muscles, perhaps trying to control the mind/body reaction to events. Regardless of its futility, it seems to happen automatically.

The intellectual feeling of understanding does seem like another story or concept but is there a sense of knowing anywhere for you now? Or a sense of a shift with anything? When you sit quietly how is it? Or in the traffic coming home? How are you experiencing the ‘now’ now?
Joking aside – the breakthrough – is it wanted still? Would that be a story again created by thought – ‘you haven’t had one so you haven’t got it yet’ – kind of thing?

So the question is: are then any tangible changes in life to indicate that some kind of understanding has occurred?

One thing for certain is that I’ve become a lot more focused on this process, which would suggest more self awareness.

Perhaps some vague sense of knowing that comes and goes. There’s a lessening of frustration from no longer trying to work this out intellectually.

When I sit quietly how is it? On a good day maybe a sense of sweetness beyond the passing thoughts and sensations.

I still hate driving but I can occasionally appreciate the stillness while stuck in a jam.

How am I experiencing the ‘now’ now? There are some really beautiful ‘nows’ scattered among the crappy ones. Hang on; maybe there is just one long ‘now’? Must be the mind cutting it up into lots of little ‘nows’.

Ah yes, the breakthrough. There appears to be a desire for one of those. Yes, it must be a thought story, something down the track to be eagerly awaited. THEN I’ll be enlightened! Can’t see it happening to be honest.

Im here to point for as long as you are unsure.

I don’t feel that I’m ready to graduate yet. You might ask ‘who’s not ready?’ and I would have to admit it’s just a thought story.

Love Colin

[Sarah7]

Hi Colin

If the emotions are less intense, they may disappear instantly when the attention moves elsewhere. More intense emotions are not inclined to let the attention go without a fight. If it does break free, then thought labels weaken and the emotion may become just a lingering sensation.

Lovely. Keep looking.

There is an apparent ‘me’ up until the forgetting happens. If attention moves away from the thoughts, then the apparent ‘me’ is no longer noticed, of course. It’s like one of those ‘baby with the bathwater’ situations. Is there a ‘me’ controlling anything? Well a thought label can’t control anything. The idea of control seems to involve a tensing of muscles, perhaps trying to control the mind/body reaction to events. Regardless of its futility, it seems to happen automatically.

What happens when you slip then – is there a you controlling anything or is there just action? Keep looking for the you that controls anything. I don’t know if you write or like writing? When I went through this process – I wrote every day – it kind of helped me see the looking. The very act of writing sharpened the looking.

Perhaps some vague sense of knowing that comes and goes. There’s a lessening of frustration from no longer trying to work this out intellectually. When I sit quietly how is it? On a good day maybe a sense of sweetness beyond the passing thoughts and sensations.

And what wants this all the time? And uses comparison thoughts to bash you when its not there?

I still hate driving but I can occasionally appreciate the stillness while stuck in a jam.

Quality looking territory here!

How am I experiencing the ‘now’ now? There are some really beautiful ‘nows’ scattered among the crappy ones. Hang on; maybe there is just one long ‘now’? Must be the mind cutting it up into lots of little ‘nows’.

YES!!!!!

Ah yes, the breakthrough. There appears to be a desire for one of those. Yes, it must be a thought story, something down the track to be eagerly awaited. THEN I’ll be enlightened! Can’t see it happening to be honest.

What is enlightenment then? Another thought story? Another concept thought up by thought? Pull this wanting out – look at it. See where it permeates. See its story.

I don’t feel that I’m ready to graduate yet. You might ask ‘who’s not ready?’ and I would have to admit it’s just a thought story.

Good question!
Much love Sarah xx

[Colinm]

Hi Sarah,

What happens when you slip then – is there a you controlling anything or is there just action? Keep looking for the you that controls anything. I don’t know if you write or like writing? When I went through this process – I wrote every day – it kind of helped me see the looking. The very act of writing sharpened the looking.

There is no apparent me controlling things outside of the thought stories. To notice that would suggest that there is no me controlling things even when there is the unexamined belief in one. Actions just appear to happen, often too fast to be consciously controlled.
What do you mean by writing helped you see the looking? What kind of writing?

And what wants this all the time? And uses comparison thoughts to bash you when its not there?

There is that habit of wanting pleasant feelings and sensations, and resisting unpleasant ones. What is doing the wanting? It must be thoughts; there is no apparent wanter outside of thoughts. Just thoughts doing what they do.

What is enlightenment then? Another thought story? Another concept thought up by thought? Pull this wanting out – look at it. See where it permeates. See its story.

What is enlightenment? Perhaps living life from the perspective of no self. Sounds wonderful. Yes of course it’s just a bunch of concepts and thoughts. Anything we can put into words has to be concepts and thoughts! Where does this wanting permeate? Obviously in thoughts, in essence no different from all the other wanting, or thoughts in general for that matter. What is it’s story? That if sometime in the future I can get a clear understanding of the absence of a self, then I’ll be enlightened and free from wanting anything. Yep, just one of those thought stories that keep the seeking going on and on.

Love colin

[Sarah7]

Hi Colin

There is no apparent me controlling things outside of the thought stories. To notice that would suggest that there is no me controlling things even when there is the unexamined belief in one. Actions just appear to happen, often too fast to be consciously controlled.

Are you sure about this statement now? Is this felt and known?

What do you mean by writing helped you see the looking? What kind of writing?

I would answer my guide on paper and as I was looking write down what I saw – adding to it if needed. Rereading after sometimes would create further looking. It is not ‘a method’, it is something that was experienced here.

There is that habit of wanting pleasant feelings and sensations, and resisting unpleasant ones. What is doing the wanting? It must be thoughts; there is no apparent wanter outside of thoughts. Just thoughts doing what they do.

Yes. Again – is this seen now – is there a noticing of habit thoughts, especially the ones that resist unpleasant thoughts?

What is enlightenment? Perhaps living life from the perspective of no self. Sounds wonderful. Yes of course it’s just a bunch of concepts and thoughts. Anything we can put into words has to be concepts and thoughts! Where does this wanting permeate? Obviously in thoughts, in essence no different from all the other wanting, or thoughts in general for that matter. What is it’s story? That if sometime in the future I can get a clear understanding of the absence of a self, then I’ll be enlightened and free from wanting anything. Yep, just one of those thought stories that keep the seeking going on and on.

Yup! And again – is it seen now? Can the wanting be watched and smiled at? What happens to the wanting when it is looked at and seen?
Much love Sarah xx

[Colinm]

Hi Sarah,

Are you sure about this statement now? Is this felt and known?

No, I’m not really sure about anything! If asked to find a controller, then one cannot be found apart from thoughts. Thoughts just come and go without a ‘me’ creating them. But the habit of identification still seems rock solid. Perhaps the seeing isn’t deep enough!

Yes. Again – is this seen now – is there a noticing of habit thoughts, especially the ones that resist unpleasant thoughts?

With so many thoughts passing through, there are lots of opportunities to observe them. When unpleasant thoughts are resisted there tends to be a tensing or contracting, along with thought labels. The very resistance is what sustains the unpleasantness; if thoughts are just allowed to pass by they do so without much fuss.

Yup! And again – is it seen now? Can the wanting be watched and smiled at? What happens to the wanting when it is looked at and seen?

Wanting seems to create a certain type of sensation that doesn’t have much intensity without the thought story. I don’t always find it so easy to smile at it. When it is looked at and seen it often becomes something very small, just a sensation and thoughts. But as previously mentioned, the seeing feels somewhat shallow.

Love Colin

[Sarah7]

Hi Colin

No, I’m not really sure about anything! If asked to find a controller, then one cannot be found apart from thoughts. Thoughts just come and go without a ‘me’ creating them. But the habit of identification still seems rock solid. Perhaps the seeing isn’t deep enough!

Again - what wants to be sure? What wants nice neat little answers and certainty?
Lets have a little dig. Where is this identification, how do you experience it – can you explain. Do you mean a feeling of me-ness? An ‘I Am’ feeling, an ‘I exist’ feeling? Or an ownership of something – emotions, the body etc. Is it in thought only? Is it in the labels of possession mixed with habit? Is it in story?

What happens when you sit in silence and just look and see there is no controller – what happens to this identification then? Is it there? Does this identification come and go?

With so many thoughts passing through, there are lots of opportunities to observe them. When unpleasant thoughts are resisted there tends to be a tensing or contracting, along with thought labels. The very resistance is what sustains the unpleasantness; if thoughts are just allowed to pass by they do so without much fuss.

And how much of that is habit? If there is no controller then who or what is doing the resisting? Is it thought again that says there is ownership of this resistance?

Wanting seems to create a certain type of sensation that doesn’t have much intensity without the thought story. I don’t always find it so easy to smile at it. When it is looked at and seen it often becomes something very small, just a sensation and thoughts. But as previously mentioned, the seeing feels somewhat shallow.

Is that thought again that says shallow?
Much love Sarah xx

[Colinm]

Hi Sarah,

gain - what wants to be sure? What wants nice neat little answers and certainty?
Lets have a little dig. Where is this identification, how do you experience it – can you explain. Do you mean a feeling of me-ness? An ‘I Am’ feeling, an ‘I exist’ feeling? Or an ownership of something – emotions, the body etc. Is it in thought only? Is it in the labels of possession mixed with habit? Is it in story?

There are thoughts coming and going, wanting certainty and nice neat answers. How is identification experienced? There is that feeling of me-ness, combined with a sense of ownership relating to the body and thoughts. There are habitual thoughts and feelings that include a sense of me as controller. The me isn’t continuous; if I look closely it comes and goes. It’s all just a story in thoughts, nowhere else it could be.

What happens when you sit in silence and just look and see there is no controller – what happens to this identification then? Is it there? Does this identification come and go

When there are no thoughts arising, the identification either disappears or remains a very faint background feeling. It becomes apparent that I still exist without the thought labels. It comes and goes in awareness.

And how much of that is habit? If there is no controller then who or what is doing the resisting? Is it thought again that says there is ownership of this resistance?

Without a controller, the mind/body functions largely from habit. It can only be thoughts that are resisting, and labeling objects as me an mine.

Is that thought again that says shallow?

Yes, shallow can only be in comparison to the thought story of deep. Things simply are as they are, and only in thought are they labelled as inadequate or not good enough. There is the story that says if my seeing is deep then I will understand and something will happen.

Love colin

[Sarah7]

Hi Colin

There are thoughts coming and going, wanting certainty and nice neat answers. How is identification experienced? There is that feeling of me-ness, combined with a sense of ownership relating to the body and thoughts.

This sense of ownership – can you locate it? Is it in labels? Is it in seeing? Is it in sensing? Where and how is it experienced? Do you own your body? Do you own right leg? Take a look with eyes open and eyes closed. Do you own your mind? How do you know? Do you own story about ........? Or all ownership IS a story about owning. What is here now that owns this moment? Which sense tells you that there is an owner? Does thinking that there is an owner prove the owner exists as an independent entity?
When you say thoughts – do you mean thoughts own or there is a you owning thoughts? Do you mean ‘I think it so its mine’ sort of thing? Or ….?

There are habitual thoughts and feelings that include a sense of me as controller.

Give me an example of this please.

The me isn’t continuous; if I look closely it comes and goes. It’s all just a story in thoughts, nowhere else it could be.

OK – is this just said or seen? Look. Every time the identification is seen – look.

When there are no thoughts arising, the identification either disappears or remains a very faint background feeling. It becomes apparent that I still exist without the thought labels. It comes and goes in awareness.

Does everything come and go in awareness?

When you look at a table – is there a you looking at a separate object called table? Or is seeing just experienced? What is the difference when you look at your hand? Are you aware of your body all the time or does that come and go in awareness too?

Are any strong emotions coming up Colin?
Much love Sarah xx

[Colinm]

Hi Sarah,

This sense of ownership – can you locate it? Is it in labels? Is it in seeing? Is it in sensing? Where and how is it experienced? Do you own your body? Do you own right leg? Take a look with eyes open and eyes closed. Do you own your mind? How do you know? Do you own story about ........? Or all ownership IS a story about owning. What is here now that owns this moment? Which sense tells you that there is an owner? Does thinking that there is an owner prove the owner exists as an independent entity?

Hard to put my finger on it, somewhat elusive. There are no noticeable thoughts saying my this and my that. There is no really convincing reason to feel that I own any of this that is present in awareness. Must be just a story that I have come to believe, and never had a reason to question as it was so ‘obviously’ true. Can’t ‘imagine’ living without it! Thinking there is an owner doesn’t make it real of course.

When you say thoughts – do you mean thoughts own or there is a you owning thoughts? Do you mean ‘I think it so its mine’ sort of thing? Or ….?

Yes, there is still that lingering sense of owning thoughts, and believing thoughts to be true. But as in the comments above, there is no compelling evidence that there is a ‘me’ thinking ‘my’ thoughts. If there is one, it must be well hidden. Once again, it appears to be a story believed.

Give me an example of this please.

I was referring to the familiar sense of ‘me-ness’ that appears to be overlayed on awareness. There is that sense of me deciding, controlling and doing things.

OK – is this just said or seen? Look. Every time the identification is seen – look.

It is clear that the sense of ‘me-ness’ is not continuous and seamless throughout the day. It comes up in certain situations, in the form of thought stories.

Does everything come and go in awareness?

That appears to be the case.

When you look at a table – is there a you looking at a separate object called table? Or is seeing just experienced? What is the difference when you look at your hand? Are you aware of your body all the time or does that come and go in awareness too?
Are any strong emotions coming up Colin?

Looking at a table, there is no evidence of me looking; just the experience of seeing. There is no real difference when looking at my hand, except for a sense of ownership. The thoughts are not expressing it but it seems to be a belief deeper down in the mind. Body awareness is not continuous, it comes and goes in awareness.
No, I don’t have any noticeable emotions happening in reference to this process.

Love Colin

[Sarah7]

Hi Colin

Hard to put my finger on it, somewhat elusive. There are no noticeable thoughts saying my this and my that. There is no really convincing reason to feel that I own any of this that is present in awareness. Must be just a story that I have come to believe, and never had a reason to question as it was so ‘obviously’ true. Can’t ‘imagine’ living without it! Thinking there is an owner doesn’t make it real of course.

Keep looking.

Yes, there is still that lingering sense of owning thoughts, and believing thoughts to be true. But as in the comments above, there is no compelling evidence that there is a ‘me’ thinking ‘my’ thoughts. If there is one, it must be well hidden. Once again, it appears to be a story believed.

Can you give me a specific example we can look at?

I was referring to the familiar sense of ‘me-ness’ that appears to be overlayed on awareness. There is that sense of me deciding, controlling and doing things.

Is me-ness separate from awareness? Is the me-ness feeling the same as the sense of a me deciding? Is there a thought in there? Does the feeling of deciding come and go or is it constant? Watch decision take place – how many of them do you actually notice? How many decisions does habit and preference decide on? Watch a decision take place – is there really a you deciding or thoughts just accompanying it? Look very closely for this one.
Is the me-ness feeling the same as the sense of a me controlling? Again – look closely and use above.

It is clear that the sense of ‘me-ness’ is not continuous and seamless throughout the day. It comes up in certain situations, in the form of thought stories.

Is it only seen with thought or in thought?

Looking at a table, there is no evidence of me looking; just the experience of seeing. There is no real difference when looking at my hand, except for a sense of ownership. The thoughts are not expressing it but it seems to be a belief deeper down in the mind. Body awareness is not continuous, it comes and goes in awareness.

Well observed. Try staring at your hand for quite a while. Watch what is experienced.
Love Sarah xx