Guidance needed

[Sarah7]

Hi Colin

It does give the impression of a conclusion. Therefore, I will try not to use it anymore!

I wasn’t trying to be picky with language – it was just me checking – please keep using if its how you say things – I just needed to know its your way of saying ‘Ive looked’. OK.

It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no "I" involved, but how is it for you when walking?

How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing?

Is there any "I" there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?

Look to see whether, when "you" do these things there is sometimes a thought, just after that says, "I did that."

Are all actions 'automatic'?

Take any decision you notice, when a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). Can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) do whatever come after the event itself?
Love Sarah xx

[Colinm]

Hi Sarah,

It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no "I" involved, but how is it for you when walking?

The body is quite capable of walking without any attention from the mind, so it seems. This frees the mind to wander and day dream with endless thoughts. The attention normally focuses on the thoughts, and that’s where the sense of self is most strongly felt. Due to some previous involvement with Buddhism, I have a habit of focusing on the sensations of the body walking, as it feels kind of meditative and relaxing. The actual process of walking doesn’t appear to need ‘me’.

How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing?

These kinds of tasks appear to operate on autopilot; I certainly don’t have to direct the hands to coordinate their countless little man-oeuvres. Once again, the mind is free to play with thoughts.

Is there any "I" there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?

Look to see whether, when "you" do these things there is sometimes a thought, just after that says, "I did that."

Due to the automatic nature of these actions, any kind of involvement from an “I” would appear to be counterproductive. There are too many little movements happening in sequence for the conscious mind to orchestrate. But still there is a sense of “I” washing up or brushing teeth; this tends to be overlay-ed on the reality of ‘washing up’. On close inspection, it is slightly out of sync with the physical action.

Are all actions 'automatic'?

I think that a huge percentage of what we do is automatic. If we are learning a new task, it takes some time before it becomes automatic. This is very apparent in things like driving, music, dancing, taichi, etc.
Then again, as to whether you would call the process of learning ‘automatic’, I’m not sure. If there is no “I” involved, I guess that would make everything in life automatic!

Take any decision you notice, when a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). Can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) do whatever come after the event itself?

Right now I’m enjoying my morning cup of coffee, an essential daily routine. The decision to get up and boil the water appeared to happen deep down, out of sight. It was almost as if a message was sent to me in the form of a thought. After that there were little decisions as to when it was time to pause, pick up the cup and have a drink. These felt like mild impulses. In some ways, decisions feel like suggestions that emerge out of the mind. In direct experience these decision thoughts are just appearing in the NOW space. The actual decision or choice appears to arrive without a sense of self involvement. But immediately the thought arises that “I have decided to…” The decision making process feels like a very important pillar of my belief in a separate self. In questioning the reality of this process, the ‘I’ looks just a little less solid!

Love Colin

[Sarah7]

Hi Colin

But still there is a sense of “I” washing up or brushing teeth; this tends to be overlay-ed on the reality of ‘washing up’. On close inspection, it is slightly out of sync with the physical action.

This sense of ‘I’ – is it a feeling? Or a quiet thought somewhere? Is it habit based on memory thoughts? Have a real good look – see if you can pin it down.
You say its out of sync? What like after the doing?

The decision making process feels like a very important pillar of my belief in a separate self. In questioning the reality of this process, the ‘I’ looks just a little less solid!

Is there a belief here then that you have choice? Did you choose to like coffee? Did you actually decide to love or not? Did you choose to be interested in dancing, or was it something automatic? Did you choose your life?
Look carefully at the decisions that happen daily – is there a ‘you’ deciding anything? See whether there is an automatic ness to decisions and where thought does or doesn’t attach.

What about control? What about free will?

Are there any other beliefs you can see – we can look at them too?

How do you feel?
Love Sarah xx

[Colinm]

Hi Sarah,

This sense of ‘I’ – is it a feeling? Or a quiet thought somewhere? Is it habit based on memory thoughts? Have a real good look – see if you can pin it down.
You say its out of sync? What like after the doing?

Hard to pinpoint the sense of ‘I’. Even when thoughts are absent it is still there. Could it be subconscious? That’s only speculation. It feels like a habit based on memory thoughts; there is a sense of continuity with feelings, emotions and reactions. The whole story of ‘I’ has to be based on past memories; somehow that is overlay-ed on the present moment. How is it perceived? If it’s not being thought about, it must translate into some kind of sensation or feeling. I’ll have to look into it further.

Is there a belief here then that you have choice? Did you choose to like coffee? Did you actually decide to love or not? Did you choose to be interested in dancing, or was it something automatic?

Yes, there is a strong belief that I have a choice, but close observation adds an element of doubt. Certain things make me feel good, so I indulge in them. Did I choose to like coffee? There was no conscious debate as to the pros and cons of drinking coffee; the attraction just appears to have emerged as a thought, together with the actions of buying/making/drinking coffee. It’s not too hard to see that one doesn’t decide to love.
Did I choose to be interested in dancing? No I absolutely hate dancing! (It was just a random example). Let’s use Taichi instead. From memory, I saw a poster on a shop window and the thought arose that this is something I would like to do. A few weeks later, there was the action of attending a class. So one can say that the feeling/thought of liking something simply arises in the present moment, and action may or may not occur.

Did you choose your life?

No, absolutely not. If I had a choice it would be totally different.

Look carefully at the decisions that happen daily – is there a ‘you’ deciding anything? See whether there is an automatic ness to decisions and where thought does or doesn’t attach.

A few moments ago I decided to go down and get something from the garage. It all happened quite quickly: a thought appeared, followed by the body standing up and walking down the steps. No apparent ‘I’ deciding, just thought followed by action. The ‘I’ just goes along for the ride.

What about control? What about free will?

The sense of ‘I’ feels like it needs to control everything. It seems to have an endless desire to control thoughts, emotions, people and events. It feels like it is trying to protect some old emotional wounds from being touched by attempting to control reactions and feelings. This appears to result in ‘stress’ as it is trying to interrupt the flow of life. It doesn’t seem to be deterred by constant failure in its futile attempt to be in control.

Do I have free will? I feel as if I can decide what to do and when to a certain extent. However, a close look suggests that I am limited by habitual thought patterns and reactions. Otherwise, I wouldn’t choose to have negative thoughts and emotions.

Are there any other beliefs you can see – we can look at them too?

All the beliefs appear to branch out from the belief in a separate self. There is a strong habitual belief that I am my thoughts, regardless of the fact that I don’t really choose them. There is also a strong belief that other people are also separate selves. It is not easy to be aware when interacting/reacting to other people.

How do you feel?

Do you mean how do I feel about this process so far? It has certainly motivated me to be more aware throughout the day and to question old beliefs. While there is still a seemingly unshakable sense of being a separate self, I am more aware of the brief moments when it is not so pronounced, or momentarily absent. Now and then I question the need to actually believe or identify with thoughts. It’s challenging but stimulating. Hope you don’t run out of questions!

Love Colin

[Sarah7]

Hi Colin

Hard to pinpoint the sense of ‘I’. Even when thoughts are absent it is still there. Could it be subconscious? That’s only speculation. It feels like a habit based on memory thoughts; there is a sense of continuity with feelings, emotions and reactions. The whole story of ‘I’ has to be based on past memories; somehow that is overlay-ed on the present moment. How is it perceived? If it’s not being thought about, it must translate into some kind of sensation or feeling. I’ll have to look into it further.

Please do. Keep looking for where this sense is. Is it more like an ‘I am’ sense? I call that the feeling of me-ness.
Are feelings, emotions and reactions – all habit based as well? Could this sense of ‘I’ be habit based too e.g. you have been collecting thoughts, beliefs, ideas etc for however many years you have been alive?
Without thought do you exist?
Is ‘I’ the witness? Or again is that another thought?

No, absolutely not. If I had a choice it would be totally different.

How so? What is wrong with the one you have ‘now’? I mean this minute too. In this Now what is seen as wrong, or not right, or wanting it to be different? Would that also be a thought based on….what? Memory, comparison…?

Without thought is there a problem? Ever?

The sense of ‘I’ feels like it needs to control everything. It seems to have an endless desire to control thoughts, emotions, people and events. It feels like it is trying to protect some old emotional wounds from being touched by attempting to control reactions and feelings. This appears to result in ‘stress’ as it is trying to interrupt the flow of life. It doesn’t seem to be deterred by constant failure in its futile attempt to be in control.

Is it seen as a problem that it does this? Or can it be seen as being part of what is?

Next time you feel stress (or anything other strong emotion or feeling) I want you to dissect it as if under microscope.
Go back to the feeling of stress. Is stress caused by resistance to what is? Turn towards this feeling completely and look. For who is it a problem that there is stress and tightness? Is it a problem for a single thought? What is it a problem for after that single thought has gone as it will? Another thought? In between the 2 thoughts is there a problem? Only thought is worried or threatened. What is the sensation itself – striped of story – ignore the thoughts – look to the sensation only. The sensation changes continually or vibrates. Go into it. How old is the vibration, how long has this stress labelled sensation been? Has it just happened, does it have a history this sensation (apart from what thought gives it). How would you describe this sensation? Is it ever changing? Is it a problem this sensation? If thought says its unpleasant is it really? Go to the sensations and check under the label and story. Is unpleasantness added by thought? Look as new born baby – you know nothing but the current experience – is it really unpleasant? Go to the sensation – turn down the volume of the thoughts – is it a problem? If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something labelled or called stress? Is there any inherent stress in the sensation itself? Go to the sensation located at the sole of your foot – would you call that sensation stress? Or is it just a tingling vibration? Now compare these 2 sensations – the neutral soles of the feet to the labelled sensation in the shoulders or where ever – whats the difference between them? Don’t refer to the labels – just refer to the sensations. Is one more intense? Like a headache? If you don’t refer to your thoughts is it unpleasant? Could you live with this sensation for the rest of your life? Can you see how the thoughts get mixed up with the sensation? Is there an ‘I cant’ in there – that’s a thought. Is there an ‘I don’t want’ in there – that’s a thought. Go past the thought to the body sensation. Can you detect interpretation of the sensation? Thoughts again. Can you see the labels thought is trying to add - like – ‘this is stress’, ‘this is unpleasant’? None of these thoughts actually belong to the sensation. See the thoughts but place them to one side. Without these thoughts would you know these sensations were stress? Same with the body – pure tingling sensation with thought overlaid. Is there resistance in the sensation or is it in the thought?

All the beliefs appear to branch out from the belief in a separate self. There is a strong habitual belief that I am my thoughts, regardless of the fact that I don’t really choose them. There is also a strong belief that other people are also separate selves. It is not easy to be aware when interacting/reacting to other people.

What is belief – is it a thought? What is ‘separate’ – a thought? How do you know others are there? Go back to the sight exercise for this – is it thought again that says ‘I am separate’? Look for these thoughts. Don’t worry of you don’t see them – just keep looking and keep questioning! Is it possible to ‘not’ be aware? When? Isnt it the case that awareness just contains something else?

Hope you don’t run out of questions!

Ha! No I haven’t!
Love Sarah xx

[Colinm]

Hi Sarah,

Wow, there is enough valuable advice in that post to keep me out of mischief for awhile! I’ll have to print that one out.

Please do. Keep looking for where this sense is. Is it more like an ‘I am’ sense? I call that the feeling of me-ness.

Yes it may well be that ‘I am’ sense, always present in the background. The sense of a separate self tends to be more tangible, like thoughts and feelings.

Are feelings, emotions and reactions – all habit based as well? Could this sense of ‘I’ be habit based too e.g. you have been collecting thoughts, beliefs, ideas etc for however many years you have been alive?

They are definitely habit based – same old stuff comes up every day. My sense of ‘l’ appears to be solely based on thoughts, feelings, emotions, and reactions, so I guess that makes ‘me’ just a bad habit.

Without thought do you exist?

No doubt this mind/body keeps flowing with or without the presence of thought.

Is ‘I’ the witness? Or again is that another thought?

From direct experience, I can’t say that ‘I’ am the witness. There is awareness. The ‘I’ appears to be entirely thought based, just an object in awareness.

How so? What is wrong with the one you have ‘now’? I mean this minute too. In this Now what is seen as wrong, or not right, or wanting it to be different? Would that also be a thought based on….what? Memory, comparison…?

What’s wrong with my life? Well, it’s a long story! Dissatisfaction seems to be part of the human condition; the economy would grind to a halt without it. Direct experience would suggest that there is nothing wrong NOW. The problems are time based and require thoughts to exist. I guess time is also just another thought happening in the present moment.

Without thought is there a problem? Ever?

I think not. We need thought to make it my problem. Even extreme pain is just sensations happening now. Without a ‘me’, nothing is a problem.

Is it seen as a problem that it does this? Or can it be seen as being part of what is?

‘I’ see it as a problem. Can it be seen as being part of what is? Once again in direct experience it appears as sensations and thoughts arising and passing. Thoughts label it as a problem. If I could see everything as part of what is, all my problems would be over. Why can’t I? Attention appears to focus on the content of thoughts and believes the story, making it ‘my’ problem.

Next time you feel stress (or anything other strong emotion or feeling) I want you to dissect it as if under microscope.
Go back to the feeling of stress. Is stress caused by resistance to what is? Turn towards this feeling completely and look. For who is it a problem that there is stress and tightness? Is it a problem for a single thought? What is it a problem for after that single thought has gone as it will? Another thought? In between the 2 thoughts is there a problem? Only thought is worried or threatened.

It’s those damn thoughts again. Identification with thought is such a deeply rooted habit; it will take some really clear seeing to let go of it. I’m sure there will be no shortage of opportunities to observe this closely.

What is the sensation itself – striped of story – ignore the thoughts – look to the sensation only. The sensation changes continually or vibrates. Go into it. How old is the vibration, how long has this stress labelled sensation been? Has it just happened, does it have a history this sensation (apart from what thought gives it). How would you describe this sensation? Is it ever changing? Is it a problem this sensation? If thought says its unpleasant is it really? Go to the sensations and check under the label and story. Is unpleasantness added by thought? Look as new born baby – you know nothing but the current experience – is it really unpleasant?

Ignoring thoughts, the sensation is just a feeling arising somewhere in the body. It’s just happening in the NOW, changing and fading away. Apart from thought, it has no history; just a brand new sensation. Unpleasant is nothing in reality, it’s just a thought label attached.

Go to the sensation – turn down the volume of the thoughts – is it a problem? If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something labelled or called stress? Is there any inherent stress in the sensation itself? Go to the sensation located at the sole of your foot – would you call that sensation stress? Or is it just a tingling vibration? Now compare these 2 sensations – the neutral soles of the feet to the labelled sensation in the shoulders or where ever – whats the difference between them? Don’t refer to the labels – just refer to the sensations. Is one more intense? Like a headache? If you don’t refer to your thoughts is it unpleasant? Could you live with this sensation for the rest of your life?

The problem appears to be totally thought based – sensations are neutral. It has no stress apart from the thoughts that label it stress. Comparing the sensation in the sole of my foot, it is a more intense vibration. Taking the attention away from the thoughts has the side effect of removing the stress. ‘Unpleasant’ is simply a thought label. No doubt it would not be hard to live with as a pure sensation.

Can you see how the thoughts get mixed up with the sensation? Is there an ‘I cant’ in there – that’s a thought. Is there an ‘I don’t want’ in there – that’s a thought. Go past the thought to the body sensation. Can you detect interpretation of the sensation? Thoughts again. Can you see the labels thought is trying to add - like – ‘this is stress’, ‘this is unpleasant’? None of these thoughts actually belong to the sensation. See the thoughts but place them to one side. Without these thoughts would you know these sensations were stress? Same with the body – pure tingling sensation with thought overlaid. Is there resistance in the sensation or is it in the thought?

I had some good material to work with this evening – stuck in a peak hour traffic jam, busy stressful time at work. The sensations strongly suggested frustration, stress, ‘I don’t want’. But during the occasional moment of clarity it was obviously the thoughts with their persistent commentary and labelling. It is interesting to let the sensations be OK, to not see them as a problem. (Will take a lot of practice). Resistance is clearly thought based, sensations are just sensation.

What is belief – is it a thought? What is ‘separate’ – a thought? How do you know others are there? Go back to the sight exercise for this – is it thought again that says ‘I am separate’? Look for these thoughts. Don’t worry of you don’t see them – just keep looking and keep questioning! Is it possible to ‘not’ be aware? When? Isnt it the case that awareness just contains something else?

Is a belief a thought? Yes, what else could it be? Wow, even separate is just a thought! It seems like so much of our believed in world is conceptual, just a thought. From direct experience, seeing doesn’t indicate separation.
Is it possible to not be aware? No, at least not while conscious. Awareness needs to shine its light on something, even if it’s just a bunch of unpleasant thoughts. Or even nice thoughts. (to finish on a more pleasant note).

Love Colin

[Sarah7]

Hi Colin

Wow, there is enough valuable advice in that post to keep me out of mischief for awhile! I’ll have to print that one out.

Sorry – I get carried away something! Please don’t feel the need to deal with everything I throw at you! You are allowed to pace yourself!!!!!

They are definitely habit based – same old stuff comes up every day. My sense of ‘l’ appears to be solely based on thoughts, feelings, emotions, and reactions, so I guess that makes ‘me’ just a bad habit.

Do you see this as negative then or just part of what is (or are you being funny!!!!!)?

What’s wrong with my life? Well, it’s a long story! Dissatisfaction seems to be part of the human condition; the economy would grind to a halt without it. Direct experience would suggest that there is nothing wrong NOW. The problems are time based and require thoughts to exist. I guess time is also just another thought happening in the present moment.

Yes. Every time you feel that dissatisfaction – stop and look – at the moment as it is. See the thoughts and let them go like clouds, breathe. See the thoughts that cause that dissatisfaction. Just thoughts – nothing else. Smile.

‘I’ see it as a problem. Can it be seen as being part of what is? Once again in direct experience it appears as sensations and thoughts arising and passing. Thoughts label it as a problem. If I could see everything as part of what is, all my problems would be over. Why can’t I? Attention appears to focus on the content of thoughts and believes the story, making it ‘my’ problem.

OK good. You expect all this to just click and kick in? This was not my experience at all. There was a gentle unfolding. Im using words here to try and explain – but there was no quick fix here. Slow steady chipping. This may not be the case for you – but see the expectations. OK.
Look at ‘why cant I’! That is a thought. Look past it. See it for what it is and go deeper. You have the tools now. Sometimes new habits have to be set to see past old ones! So the next time you see a thought and don’t engage in the story of it – SMILE! Next time you watch thoughts instead of content – SMILE!
What damage can a thought do? Over what do they have power? What considers thoughts to be a problem?

I had some good material to work with this evening – stuck in a peak hour traffic jam, busy stressful time at work. The sensations strongly suggested frustration, stress, ‘I don’t want’. But during the occasional moment of clarity it was obviously the thoughts with their persistent commentary and labelling. It is interesting to let the sensations be OK, to not see them as a problem. (Will take a lot of practice). Resistance is clearly thought based, sensations are just sensation.

And….. What did happen after you saw?

Is a belief a thought? Yes, what else could it be? Wow, even separate is just a thought! It seems like so much of our believed in world is conceptual, just a thought. From direct experience, seeing doesn’t indicate separation.
Is it possible to not be aware? No, at least not while conscious. Awareness needs to shine its light on something, even if it’s just a bunch of unpleasant thoughts. Or even nice thoughts.

Lovely looking again Colin! Remember I asked you where seeing happens? You said – ‘here’. Look for that ‘here’ now when you look out of the window at a scene, or out of your car when not driving home! Look. Allow it all.
Love Sarah xx

[Colinm]

Hi Sarah,

Sorry – I get carried away something! Please don’t feel the need to deal with everything I throw at you! You are allowed to pace yourself!!!!!

Don’t be sorry, I love it when you get carried away! I am blown away by all the time and energy you are giving here. I need a large dose of this medicine to shake up those old habits.

Do you see this as negative then or just part of what is (or are you being funny!!!!!)?

All of the above! Is it negative? Well, we are happy to get rid of it. It is a little funny that our precious self identity is a collection of habits. Of course in reality, it is just part of what is.

Yes. Every time you feel that dissatisfaction – stop and look – at the moment as it is. See the thoughts and let them go like clouds, breathe. See the thoughts that cause that dissatisfaction. Just thoughts – nothing else. Smile.

I need a lot of reminding that thoughts are just thoughts, not who I am. Although I’ve been hearing/reading it for so many years, and agreeing intellectually, it seems to be totally forgotten soon afterwards! You are helping me be more aware of it.

OK good. You expect all this to just click and kick in?

We wouldn’t want to put all those spiritual/self help gurus out of business!

Next time you watch thoughts instead of content – SMILE!
What damage can a thought do? Over what do they have power? What considers thoughts to be a problem?

What is a thought if it’s not identified with or believed? Just words passing through my mind, pretty innocuous really. When seen from this perspective, they don’t have any power at all. What considers thought a problem? Worse case scenario – another thought.

And….. What did happen after you saw?

A brief sense of stepping off the well-worn path to see things from a different perspective. A few moments of non-resistance to what is. I am finding this easier to practice in non-stressful situations. Much of our waking time is filled with thoughts and sensations of some variety. (It's now my sleeping time!).

Love Colin

[Sarah7]

Hi Colin

All of the above! Is it negative? Well, we are happy to get rid of it. It is a little funny that our precious self identity is a collection of habits. Of course in reality, it is just part of what is.

Is this seen – that thoughts are just a part of what is?

I need a lot of reminding that thoughts are just thoughts, not who I am. Although I’ve been hearing/reading it for so many years, and agreeing intellectually, it seems to be totally forgotten soon afterwards! You are helping me be more aware of it.

Can you remind yourself? Or does reminding just happen - the thought of reminding just pops into the head?
What happens when there is awareness of it/them (thoughts)?

What is a thought if it’s not identified with or believed? Just words passing through my mind, pretty innocuous really. When seen from this perspective, they don’t have any power at all. What considers thought a problem? Worse case scenario – another thought.

Exactly. OK again – keep looking for this.

A brief sense of stepping off the well-worn path to see things from a different perspective. A few moments of non-resistance to what is. I am finding this easier to practice in non-stressful situations. Much of our waking time is filled with thoughts and sensations of some variety.

Again – keep looking at this Colin. Yes it is easier when not in an habitual response – but don’t forget to smile when it is seen instead of reacting habitually! See what the reaction of thoughts is too when forgetting happens – is there a guilt response, a telling off by thoughts?

Is "I" a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

Can a thought think?

Does the body experience sensations and thought?
or
Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

'I' is just a thought..so it can't be a thinker, doer, witness or anything at all?
Love Sarah xx

[Colinm]

Hi Sarah,

Is this seen – that thoughts are just a part of what is?

When I’m not lost in the habit of identifying with thoughts and believing the content, it becomes more apparent that thoughts are just part of what is, arising and passing in awareness.

Can you remind yourself? Or does reminding just happen - the thought of reminding just pops into the head?

Remembering to be aware of thoughts can only be another thought popping into the head. I can leave a post it note or something to ‘remind myself’, but it is all the interplay of thoughts.

What happens when there is awareness of it/them (thoughts)?

Awareness of thoughts appears to cause a slight change of perspective, a kind of spaciousness and letting go. Identifying with thoughts gives that feeling of being up close and personal, where as awareness is like stepping back a few paces and seeing more of the big picture.

Again – keep looking at this Colin. Yes it is easier when not in an habitual response – but don’t forget to smile when it is seen instead of reacting habitually! See what the reaction of thoughts is too when forgetting happens – is there a guilt response, a telling off by thoughts?

I keep forgetting to smile. Habit is sometimes like a big wave that carries me along with great force. When forgetting is noticed, that means remembering is happening. In that respect there is no guilt or telling off – more like a good feeling for having just remembered again!

Is "I" a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

That’s a good one. From the direct experiential perspective they are both just a word that pops into the head. Or perhaps they could be described as a sound, prior to the mind interpreting and reacting according to habit and programming. If the house is on fire, one would be more inclined to save that which the ‘I’ points to.

Can a thought think?

Thoughts appear to be the cause for a lot more thoughts, but they are all just emerging one after the other from who knows where. Apparently even science can’t explain what thoughts are and where they come from. Anyway, from observation they are just objects in awareness arising and passing.

Does the body experience sensations and thought?
or
Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

I have trouble with this one! There appears to be a body there experiencing sensations and thoughts, even if the body is not ‘me’. But looking ‘deeper’ into experience, we only have awareness of the body as sights, sounds, sensations and smells. Thoughts label this experience ‘body’. So there is simply awareness of these sense impressions along with thoughts and other sense impressions.

'I' is just a thought..so it can't be a thinker, doer, witness or anything at all?

The ‘I’ can’t be found anywhere except in thought, so it can’t really do anything. There is a strong energy of identification and habitual attachment that tends to shield the reality of this. But when observed these are just sensations and thoughts, just a part of what is.

Love Colin

[Sarah7]

Hi Sarah,

Awareness of thoughts appears to cause a slight change of perspective, a kind of spaciousness and letting go. Identifying with thoughts gives that feeling of being up close and personal, where as awareness is like stepping back a few paces and seeing more of the big picture.

Are both an appearance in awareness?

That’s a good one. From the direct experiential perspective they are both just a word that pops into the head. Or perhaps they could be described as a sound, prior to the mind interpreting and reacting according to habit and programming. If the house is on fire, one would be more inclined to save that which the ‘I’ points to.

LOL. OK with that survival programming in mind – keep looking at the table and then look at say the hand for convenience sake. Stare at both one at a time and just let the seeing happen. Take note of sensations, thoughts, (explanations, labels), feelings, emotions etc.

I have trouble with this one! There appears to be a body there experiencing sensations and thoughts, even if the body is not ‘me’. But looking ‘deeper’ into experience, we only have awareness of the body as sights, sounds, sensations and smells. Thoughts label this experience ‘body’. So there is simply awareness of these sense impressions along with thoughts and other sense impressions.

Yes – keep looking at it. Let it sink in!

So just to clarify in direct experience:

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?
Love Sarah xx

[Colinm]

Hi Sarah,

Are both an appearance in awareness?

Ah yes, of course! I have a preference for the one that makes me feel better, but habit’s ‘default mode’ is the least comfortable option. Ultimately, it’s just all thoughts and sensations arising in awareness.

OK with that survival programming in mind – keep looking at the table and then look at say the hand for convenience sake. Stare at both one at a time and just let the seeing happen. Take note of sensations, thoughts, (explanations, labels), feelings, emotions etc.

I certainly feel more attached to the hand. There are thoughts of me and my hand. There are sensations arising that mind says are coming from the hand. Looking at the table creates a neutral feeling. It is labelled inanimate whereas the hand is assumed to be alive.

So just to clarify in direct experience:

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’

In Direct experience:
Even though this mind/body is assumed to be myself, I can’t actually pinpoint an experiencer. Sensations and thoughts are happening in awareness.
Decisions are being made constantly throughout the day, but they appear as thoughts arising in awareness, followed by actions.
There is still a strong attachment to thinking, I’ve spent a lot of years in that mode. But obviously I’m not creating the thoughts, they are just coming and going in awareness.
The body can only be known via the five senses, with thought providing labels. Just like thoughts, the five senses don’t appear to need a doer to make them arise in awareness.
Is there a self ‘in here’? Well, there is a strong habitual belief in that one! But if he can’t actually be pinpointed, then one has to have some doubts about it.

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Unfortunately, there are still lots of doubts and lack of clarity regardless of the view from direct experience. Still plenty of chipping away to be done. But of course these doubts and chipping plans are all just thoughts arising in the present, all part of what is!

Love Colin

[Sarah7]

Hi Colin

I certainly feel more attached to the hand. There are thoughts of me and my hand. There are sensations arising that mind says are coming from the hand. Looking at the table creates a neutral feeling. It is labelled inanimate whereas the hand is assumed to be alive.

OK. Go back to the hand. Close your eyes and feel the sensations of hand – are they there – really look for hand sensations. Or are they just sensations with lots of thought stories e.g. location etc. See the thought stories and labels and let them pass. Sit with the pure sensing. Does the ‘me’ ‘mine’ drop after a bit? Does language and explanation drop after a bit? Keep looking.

This made me laugh! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxwn1w7MJvk

Is there a self ‘in here’? Well, there is a strong habitual belief in that one! But if he can’t actually be pinpointed, then one has to have some doubts about it.

What is belief? Is it a thought? A string of thoughts? A repeated string of thoughts? A habitual repeated string of thoughts?

When you were a child did you believe in Santa? Did that thought or belief make him real? Or did it just make the belief and thought real?

Unfortunately, there are still lots of doubts and lack of clarity regardless of the view from direct experience. Still plenty of chipping away to be done. But of course these doubts and chipping plans are all just thoughts arising in the present, all part of what is!

Are you expecting a sudden awakening? A Pow moment? Are you waiting for something really big and impressive to happen? Were you free from expectation of this process? Really? Look for an expectation – you have read books yes? Did they plant a seed of expectation anywhere?
Also what is doubt but another thought? Did you expect it to go? That all will be peace and calm and happy ever after?

http://vince-wisingup.blogspot.com.au/2 ... nment.html

Is there anything else you need to know?
Love Sarah xxx

[Colinm]

Hi Sarah,

OK. Go back to the hand. Close your eyes and feel the sensations of hand – are they there – really look for hand sensations. Or are they just sensations with lots of thought stories e.g. location etc. See the thought stories and labels and let them pass. Sit with the pure sensing. Does the ‘me’ ‘mine’ drop after a bit? Does language and explanation drop after a bit? Keep looking.

The actual sensations feel real, but the location and labelling have a different feel to them. They are more like beliefs/thoughts. If I focus on the sensation, then there is only sensation.

What is belief? Is it a thought? A string of thoughts? A repeated string of thoughts? A habitual repeated string of thoughts?
When you were a child did you believe in Santa? Did that thought or belief make him real? Or did it just make the belief and thought real?

What is a belief? It often feels like something from a little deeper down, a kind of knowing that doesn’t need verification. Perhaps that habitual repeated string of thoughts acquires a certain energy or sensation. It almost feels like they have roots in the mind! What we call learning happens with repetition, beliefs are similar.
Sadly I can’t remember believing in Santa, it would have been a useful memory for this exercise. But I know I’ve had many changing beliefs over the years. Reality didn’t change, only my beliefs and thoughts changed.
What causes our beliefs to change? We are inclined to attribute it to our own decisions, but it’s
more like circumstances change and old beliefs are just replaced by new ones.

Are you expecting a sudden awakening? A Pow moment? Are you waiting for something really big and impressive to happen?

Yes please!

Were you free from expectation of this process? Really? Look for an expectation – you have read books yes? Did they plant a seed of expectation anywhere?
Also what is doubt but another thought? Did you expect it to go? That all will be peace and calm and happy ever after?

When you first asked that question, I thought you meant expectations about this forum process. Do I have expectations about ‘awakening’? Yes, a few! Nothing special, perhaps a slightly discernible change in perception. At least a certainty that ‘hey, I’ve arrived!!’. After all, there is so much written about this subject, it can’t all be much ado about nothing.
Yes, my doubts are just more thoughts, arising and passing in awareness. Happy ever after sounds a bit fairy tale like!

http://vince-wisingup.blogspot.com.au/2 ... nment.html

Good honest description of the ordinariness of this process. Some people are making a good living selling nonduality, so it’s understandable that they feel the need to make their product and themselves sound a little special. Not a bad thing really!

Is there anything else you need to know?

Well, I guess not! (perhaps not knowing would be a better option).

Love Colin

[Sarah7]

Hi Colin

Do I have expectations about ‘awakening’? Yes, a few! Nothing special, perhaps a slightly discernible change in perception. At least a certainty that ‘hey, I’ve arrived!!’. After all, there is so much written about this subject, it can’t all be much ado about nothing.

Why not? Are you assuming they have all experienced it whatever ‘it’ is? This is about your experience not a story coming from someone else (do not read harshness here!).
I want you to look at that doubt. Stare at it as Ive said before as if down a microscope. See what it is – just thought. See the stories that make it – lots of thoughts. What or who is doubting?
Other than what you have said here - can you tell me what else you expect, believe will happen or just plain want?

Good honest description of the ordinariness of this process. Some people are making a good living selling nonduality, so it’s understandable that they feel the need to make their product and themselves sound a little special. Not a bad thing really!

Its not a case of right or wrong – but of what thoughts and expectations it creates. Pull them out! Spread them on the table in front of you and look.

Well, I guess not! (perhaps not knowing would be a better option).

What don’t you ‘know’? Sit with that – don’t think it out. Just sit and look. What else is there but this?
Much Love Sarah xx