Seeking guidance from anybody

[liang]

Hi,

I want you to look at what happens as you go to brush your teeth - and as you brush your teeth.

This morning when I go to brush my teeth, there is no thoughts, the body just move on its own.

As I brush my teeth, as my hand move the brush, I find myself form this image in my mind, of the brush that move on one of my teeth, as my brush touch the teeth front, back, top, bottom, I form this picture the position of the brush touching the tooth. Without this picture I am not able to brush the teeth properly.

I want you look at what happens in your body when you get up to put your clothes on.

As I put on the clothes, when the clothes touch my body, there is a sensation on the skin, sensing the fabric, smooth or rough. After the clothes has been put on you can feel the body slowly get warmer.

By looking at the body this way, it feels like there are two stages. First the body doing the activities then the mind start to describe what actually the body is doing.

I will do other exercise and report back.

Thanks for the guidance,
Liang

[Detox]

Yes Please do the other exercises and report back. Great -

Try to do the other activities again of brushing your teeth without forming an image, without forming a picture and tell me what you find?

Put your clothes on with out describing and narrating and tell me what you find?

[liang]

Hi,

Reporting back on one of the experience.

I want you to sit in your car and tell me what happens inbetween you sitting in your car and you beginning to drive it. If you don't drive then tell me what happens in walking and sitting on public transport, or if you ride a bicycle or a motor bike what happens.

This afternoon I was taking a bus. Sitting at the seat in the bus, I grasp what you trying to point to.

Just for a moment as I started to slowly lower my body then sit on the seat, after sitting for a few seconds, suddenly everything just stopped. Not sure how to describe it. All your senses still there, you can hear, can see, can feel the sensation on the skin, but your brain just stopped. I am trying to see directly before thought happen, then at that moment when I sit on the bus, the thought did not come. The timing is very short, a few seconds at most. I never expect I can actually see the source, before the thought happen.

The feeling is good, for that few seconds, I feel very peaceful and quiet inside.

Thanks for the guidance,
Liang

[liang]

Hi,

Try to do the other activities again of brushing your teeth without forming an image, without forming a picture and tell me what you find?

Try this out this morning, hard to do. The old habit of imagining the brush brushing the teeth cannot go away. I have this odd sensation throughout the day, there is this real person at the back looking at this "false self" in front acting all these activities. The real person try to come out, but the person in front very stubborn, it refuse to sit down and let the the real person coming through. Very frustrating.

Thanks for the guidance,
Liang

[Detox]

Liang this is going to be hard for you! But if you want to be freed from this illusion of self that you continually create in your mind by thinking, then you will have to keep on working at uprooting this habit of thinking. Thinking is a pointless game. You have spent many weeks with me thinking and believing in your thinking, and telling me what you think but it has not got you what you are looking for. So if you keep on doing the same thing and it's not going to help, why don't you try something different. Intellectually you have known for a long while there is no self, before you even came to LU.

PLEASE ANSWER ALL QUESTIONS..I notice that you answer a couple and leave the rest. Please answer every single question. There are 13 questions and I want every single one answered. Please get back to me with all answers and not some. If you want to see, it will take time. I have no idea how much time you are giving to this. But I suggest you find two hours or more on saturday and sunday to reflect on all of this. Thank you

1) Why do you keep on playing this thinking game?
2) What has your thinking gained you over these past few weeks working with me?
3) What has it cost you?



The intellect has not brought you peace of mind. How many more years do you want to be tormented by your mind. You must make a commitment to begin looking and not thinking. I have an exercise for you written by a friend of mine. And I want you to take it seriously - while relaxing and being kind to yourself. Every time thought arises, just name it thinking and let it go. Stop believing in your thoughts. If you hang on to the thinking that persists that there must be a self, despite what you have seen, you will not get very far at all. And you will not have the experience of feeling on a sensate level that there is no self. Of course once you experience it, the self will rise again, but you will see it for what it is. So please apply yourself, life is brief, we do not know how much longer we have on this earth. So seize this opportunity now, and open up to an emptiness that could inspire your life for years.

THE NATURE OF THOUGHT
Are there correct and incorrect thoughts? (Exercise by JV via Nenad)
Thought has its uses -- it is useful for navigating through conventional reality which is full of “other” “people” and “things” -- because it is thought that creates these people and things in the first place. Other people and things are experienced through sense perception - sounds, sights etc and then labelled by thought as "other" (i.e. not-me). They are also experienced through thoughts (thoughts about others) -- but this labelling has nothing to say about the reality that is apparent to our “naked awareness”. So it’s good that you have seen that thought is the mechanism that produces labels (and thereby differentiation or subject/object or me/not-me) but that awareness itself is not involved in or affected by this labelling process.
Remember thoughts are labels. They fix as nouns what are actually processes. Consider this: thoughts are never ‘correct’ to the extent that they rely on language that is inherently dualistic. Thought is the very process that establishes a false dualism in experience -- e.g. “It rains” (where is this “it”?) or “I think” (where is this “I”)? Conventionally speaking we can think of an apple and then find the ‘object’ that corresponds to this label. But can you actually experience “apple”?

Let’s do a Spira-type exercise with an apple (or fruit of your choice!). Hold the apple. Feel its smooth surface. Close your eyes and focus on the sensation where fingers touch apple --
4) in the direct experience of the sensation can you find where fingers end and apple starts?
5) Can you find two things in the sensation itself, “fingers” and “apple”?
6) Still with eyes closed, can you lift and smell the apple?
7) Focus on the scent sensation -- can you locate a specific “place” where this is taking place? Can you find a division between subject/object in the actual sensation of scent arising -- nose smelling apple? (You can repeat this with taste, too, also with eyes closed). Now try looking at the apple. Don’t stare, just let eyes rest on the apple, observe its colour and shape.
8)Can you observe the precise point at which apple ends and table begins?
9) How do you know that “apple” is a separate object? Maybe thought says shadows prove that there is a 3-dimensional experience with distance in between objects. Look at shadows:
10) Are they anything more than colors? Do they say anything about 3D? What would the experience of “apple” be without thoughts about distance, light, shadow and space? What would experience of “apple” be without the thought “apple”?
11) Can you find “apple” as a distinct entity in direct experience separate from these disparate and divergent sensations?
12) Can you discern the mechanism whereby “apple” is actually produced as a discrete object in consciousness? Going back to your question about the thought of apple being “correct”.
13) What is the relationship between these disparate sensations and the label “apple” that makes this thought-label “correct”? Is “correct” an actually existing relationship between things or is it a label that some thoughts give to other thoughts about things?

[liang]

Hi,

1) Why do you keep on playing this thinking game?

It is an old habit, I used to be want to be an author, used to think about all these plots inside my head. Being an engineer by training, also do lots of thinking and visualizing in my line of works.

2) What has your thinking gained you over these past few weeks working with me?

The thinking is a hindrance that prevent direct seeking. Thoughts create separation and pain. Again my ambition to be a writer affect me. As a writer, you are suppose to experience pain, so that you can write it down.

Without thoughts there will be no pain, no separation.

3) What has it cost you?

The thinking and thoughts as a whole create pain. It also create an attachment to the thoughts.

Exercise with an apple ( I am not very sure about the experiment, trying my best):

4) in the direct experience of the sensation can you find where fingers end and apple starts?

Yes, I can feel where the finger ends and the apple starts.

5) Can you find two things in the sensation itself, “fingers” and “apple”?

No, I feel fingers and apple as one thing.

6) Still with eyes closed, can you lift and smell the apple?

Yes, I can lift the apple with my hand and smell it.

7) Focus on the scent sensation -- can you locate a specific “place” where this is taking place? Can you find a division between subject/object in the actual sensation of scent arising -- nose smelling apple?

No, I cannot find a place where the sensation of scent start. Cannot find the division between subject/object, nose smelling apple.

8)Can you observe the precise point at which apple ends and table(finger) begins?

With my eyes open, I can observe at which point apple ends and finger begins.

9) How do you know that “apple” is a separate object?

Apple as a separate object is a "recognition" created by thought. Without thought, apple is not a separate object.

10) Are they anything more than colors? Do they say anything about 3D? What would the experience of “apple” be without thoughts about distance, light, shadow and space? What would experience of “apple” be without the thought “apple”?

Without the thought of colors, distance, light, shadow and space. the apple is just become part of your body. Just like the clothes you wear on your body, after a while you are not aware of the clothes.

11) Can you find “apple” as a distinct entity in direct experience separate from these disparate and divergent sensations?

No, apple disappear in direct experience.

13) What is the relationship between these disparate sensations and the label “apple” that makes this thought-label “correct”? Is “correct” an actually existing relationship between things or is it a label that some thoughts give to other thoughts about things?

The label "apple" become correct when relate to past experience which is also thoughts. "Correct" is just another label created by thoughts.

I slowly understand what is direct seeing. Without thoughts, then what you actually see.

Thanks for the guidance,
Liang

[Detox]

So lets now look at this thing you call stubborn -

The old habit of imagining the brush brushing the teeth cannot go away. I have this odd sensation throughout the day, there is this real person at the back looking at this "false self" in front acting all these activities. The real person try to come out, but the person in front very stubborn, it refuse to sit down and let the the real person coming through. Very frustrating

Stubborn is a story - you holding onto a strong story. A part of you not wanting to let go. But since you wrote this I can see how there has been some freeing up of the story. So lets move on.

1) Is there a real person?



2) "Next, as you move around in your normal activities, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around.Walking, driving, typing, dressing yourself, etc.

3) Is there a WHO living your life?
 
4) Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life? . 

5) Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body."

[liang]

Hi,

1) Is there a real person?

Looking inside there is no real person.

2) "Next, as you move around in your normal activities, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around.Walking, driving, typing, dressing yourself, etc.

When moving around, looking inside, there is no self to be found inside this body.

3) Is there a WHO living your life?

There is no "WHO" living this life. Now I understand why some non-duality guru say you are not living your life, you are life.

4) Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life

There are just thoughts, including the self is also a thought. There is no self that live this life, only thoughts.

5) Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body."

There is only thoughts, nothing else can be found.

I find my mind getting quiet and more still when looking inside.

Thanks for the guidance,
Liang

[Detox]

This is all good Liang - let's look deeper into what you call the mind. You may find I am asking you some similar questions I asked earlier in the dialogue. You are in a different place - and so please don't look back at your thread. That moment has passed. And this moment to shall pass. So let's look at choice.

1) Is there a chooser?
2) How does choice happen?
3)Do your thouths affect what happens or not?

with kindness Detox

[liang]

Hi,

1) Is there a chooser?

I cannot find this chooser. By direct seeking, there is no chooser.

2) How does choice happen?

This question I have no idea. The feeling is more like the choice is chosen by the consciousness, then the thought came in. When the thought came in you realize you have made this choice. The thoughts only arise after the choice already made by the consciousness. I am not sure how this choice is made, this still need some seeking.

3)Do your thoughts affect what happens or not?

Thoughts has no effect on the choice, it is an after event. After the choice already made, then thought came in.

Just put in some of my report card here. When I enter the discussion with you I already can see the thoughts, as it rising and passing from the mind. Later I slowly see that there is no "self". Now I slowly realize there is also no enlightenment, if you have a self, then the self will seek enlightenment. If there is no self then who get enlighten? Previously I saw some teachers are telling people to forget enlightenment and not to seek it, now I can see why.

Without this need to go for enlightenment, now I feel like there is a weight lift up from my body. I feel very light, or should I say there is no self, that is why I feel very light.

Just another note, this seeking for the past few weeks has affected my work. Suddenly I have lost focus on my work. Somehow I know this direct seeking is very important and focus the energy on it. Now since I have reach this point, time to put back the focus to my work. Somehow now the focus and concentration is back, don't know how to describe this. There is a peace inside.

Thanks for the guidance,
Liang

[Detox]

Liang - please persevere. You are so close - and at that point you are wanting to withdraw. This can be inevitable as it can be scary. Plus in our first or second dialogue

Now I just want to see what that enlightenment is

I asked you to put this aside - and to not grasp - and of course when the mind is told not to grasp - what does it do grasp?
And you write

Now I slowly realize there is also no enlightenment

I imagine this may be quite a disapointment and also scary - because deep down if you can see there is not enlightenment to take hold off - it means letting go of some of your deep seated views.

So please -stay with me on this dialogue - If you continue like this - I am sure we will be done in a week or less - but of course I can not guarantee this is up to you.

You say that you have lost focus on your work.

Who made that choice?

reflect on this.

You went into the intellect on the question of choice - i want you to stick with it - and feel the discomfort of it - and have a direct experience of who not having any idea of know how choice happens. So in the moment of not knowing - the self has arisen. Sit in a chair - and tell me who or what makes the choice to stand up? to put one foot after the other?

[liang]

Hi,

Sit in a chair - and tell me who or what makes the choice to stand up? to put one foot after the other?

I cannot see who is making the choice. Only at the moment I start to stand up, the awareness is aware that I am standing up. The thoughts only came in after I stand up.

When I was walking, put left foot fist, then right foot, the one after another, there is no thought. But again I cannot see who is making the choice.

About realizing there is no enlightenment, I remember the zen story that I read. About this zen monk who go to the mountain to meditate. One day he used an axe to chop the bamboo, bamboo when you hit at the side, you have this sound which is axe hitting on a word. When he hit the bamboo at the center, the hollow inside the bamboo create a drum like sound with a lot of echo. Then he realized what his master has been trying to tell him.

Now I feel like I start to listen to the hollow sound in the bamboo. So it feel quite nice actually.

But for now I still cannot see who is making the choice. But not sure why, I am not feeling anxious or frustrated, those feeling are far away now. I believe eventually I will see who is making the choice, or realize there is no one there in the first place.

Thanks for the guidance,
Liang

[liang]

Hi,

So in the moment of not knowing - the self has arisen. Sit in a chair - and tell me who or what makes the choice to stand up? to put one foot after the other?

I was looking why I cannot see who made the choice. Something that I never think before, is the choice come before the perception? The choice was so early that the mind is not aware of it, and thought only came in when the event has happen.

Now I am seriously looking at it, to see whether the choice did come before the perception happen.

Whatever it is, it is definitely before thinking, all these thinking is really hindrance of seeing the source. Now I try not to think when observing all these. Not easy.

Thanks for the guidance,
Liang

[Detox]

Hi Laing thanks for keeping this up. Please respond daily.

If you can not see who is making the choice? Then is there anybody making a choice? Does there have to be somebody that makes choice?

"Next, as you move around in your normal activities, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around.Walking, driving, typing, dressing yourself, etc. Is there a WHO living your life? Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life? Big difference. Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body."

__________________________________________

[liang]

Hi,

Sorry for late reply, busy week.

"Next, as you move around in your normal activities, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around.Walking, driving, typing, dressing yourself, etc. Is there a WHO living your life? Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life? Big difference. Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body."

I have been doing a lot of reading and also direct seeing. Now I understand why some spiritual guru called the self the false self, it is purely imaginary. There is an absolute that is definitely before consciousness. One of the guru from India say you are "unborn", now I understand what it means.

There is someone who is making the choice for the daily activities. This "absolute" who made all the choices is definitely beyond consciousness. Only when I closed my eyes, keep everything very quiet I can see the stillness before consciousness. This absolute cannot be seen, so there is nothing that direct the body.

For the past two weeks, I feel much more relax and quiet inside. Also I am more jovial, it feels good as you are busy with the works.

Thanks for the guidance,
Liang