Kristian's thread

[kristian]

ok. after a good sleep- thoughts are here as usual again. when i look intensely for the one that's identifying, immediately the thoughts dissolve. i still can't locate any identifier or "i" although there is a feeling of "self" in my chest area. when this is questioned, though, it also is seen as sensations. i do experience a bit of a shift of perception, but i still feel like "i'm definatley not finished yet". i sat for meditation this morning and it was almost effortless to simply be in "presence" while looking for "my identity". i am continuing the search because i don't want to get side-tracked by symptoms (as you described it previously).

[Damon Kamda]

ok. after a good sleep- thoughts are here as usual again. when i look intensely for the one that's identifying, immediately the thoughts dissolve. i still can't locate any identifier or "i" although there is a feeling of "self" in my chest area. when this is questioned, though, it also is seen as sensations.

Good. So what is found when looking for the one that is identifying, is thoughts and sensations arising and passing away. Excellent.

i do experience a bit of a shift of perception, but i still feel like "i'm definatley not finished yet". i sat for meditation this morning and it was almost effortless to simply be in "presence" while looking for "my identity". i am continuing the search because i don't want to get side-tracked by symptoms (as you described it previously).

What would "definately being finished" be like? Explore this for a bit- you appear to be waiting for something to arrive, a sign, a sound, a symbol, a big round of applause. What does being finished actually mean to you?

Who is there to be definately finished?
Who is there to simply be in presence, or not?
To whom does the identity belong?
Who is doing the search?
Who is waiting for the search to be over?

[kristian]

What would "definately being finished" be like? Explore this for a bit- you appear to be waiting for something to arrive, a sign, a sound, a symbol, a big round of applause. What does being finished actually mean to you?

yes. this unquestioned mind does expect an experience of crystalline clarity that rocks me to the core, shattering all belief in a seperate individual identity.

Who is there to be definately finished?
Who is there to simply be in presence, or not?
To whom does the identity belong?
Who is doing the search?
Who is waiting for the search to be over?

i will relay my experience... i am working every day at the moment so during the day i am taking the questions into focus as much as is possible. in the mornings before work is the only chance i get to really delve in, in a quiet environment. i also realise that what i am searching for is actually always with me no matter what the circumstances. so, my experience when i look for the questioner, the identity, is that i try to shift my attention onto itself it seems, feeling that my identity must be with the awareness itself. when this is done, different things are experienced like pressures (energies in the body- mostly head or heart), thoughts of insights may arise, or nothing really happens at all- just sitting, looking. of course the thinking aspect loves interesting things to happen so that it can analyse and play. but basically what happens after a longer period of looking (and not finding anything substantial) is that the looking gains in momentum or intensity. i feel that this could be a pointer, but i'm not sure.
this is how i am trying to answer the questions you gave me.

[Damon Kamda]

yes. this unquestioned mind does expect an experience of crystalline clarity that rocks me to the core, shattering all belief in a seperate individual identity.

Ok, it's good that you layed this out here. This shift may be so subtle that it goes unnoticed. For some there may be an intense experience, for others nothing at all. The way to test is simply to look, feel, sense: is there a you in any way, shape or form?

i will relay my experience... i am working every day at the moment so during the day i am taking the questions into focus as much as is possible. in the mornings before work is the only chance i get to really delve in, in a quiet environment. i also realise that what i am searching for is actually always with me no matter what the circumstances. so, my experience when i look for the questioner, the identity, is that i try to shift my attention onto itself it seems, feeling that my identity must be with the awareness itself. when this is done, different things are experienced like pressures (energies in the body- mostly head or heart), thoughts of insights may arise, or nothing really happens at all- just sitting, looking. of course the thinking aspect loves interesting things to happen so that it can analyse and play. but basically what happens after a longer period of looking (and not finding anything substantial) is that the looking gains in momentum or intensity. i feel that this could be a pointer, but i'm not sure.
this is how i am trying to answer the questions you gave me.

"My identity must be in the awareness itself". This is a subtle observation and indicates that you're looking in the right place.

Now, perhaps I should rephrase my earlier questions, because they maybe somewhat misleading.

Is there someone who will be finished, liberated?
Is there someone to simply be in presence, or not?
Is there someone to whom the identity belongs?
Is someone doing the search?

Is there someone there at all?

[kristian]

when i am intently looking, i really don't recognise any identity anywhere. when i stop looking, though, there is still a feeling of being caught up in the dream/ being the role thats acted out (believing the thoughts and sensations). the expectations are of a sort of wisdom to arise and express itself that is beyond the conditioned intellect that simply automatically reacts upon stimuli. i mustadmit that this recognition of when i m looking directly, that i can't find an identity, is quite novel. i will continue investigating this and leave the expectations aside as they are simply more thoughts.

[Damon Kamda]

Perfect! Sounds like you know which way to move forward. Take your time and keep me updated. If there's anything unclear, let me know.

when i stop looking, though, there is still a feeling of being caught up in the dream

Examine that feeling, allow it to be completely present.
Is there someone being caught up in the dream?
Breathe through that feeling and look, feel, sense.

Anybody there?

;-)

[kristian]

so when i am doing as you suggest, there is definately no person caught up in the dream because the one doing the looking is awareness, which is not definable as a thing or person. its is simply presence that is experienced at a more or less intense manner, depending on how strong the present focus is. this intense looking at the thoughts, dream, sensations etc. leads the attention back to awareness itself, the only "constant" in my perception. nevertheless there are many "knots" of unquestioned beliefs, habits etc that are asking for the attention to be looked upon with a sharp focus. i feel that this is just a small step, that there is still much clean up work to be done. i now have the proper tools for the job.

[Damon Kamda]

so when i am doing as you suggest, there is definately no person caught up in the dream because the one doing the looking is awareness

Look again at what is happening.

Can you actually see awareness is doing the looking?
Or is awareness just another word for the looking happening?

Look again- is there something doing the looking?

[kristian]

thank you for putting me back on track! ok, so when i was looking until now and i found no "person", the mind came in and was saying: yeah, i got this! i am no- personality! so when i investigated just now (and i will keep doing this all day as much as i can) i realised that the identity had simply shifted from a peronality to that which is perceived. different name but same thing. the perceiver is still not identified, but it is something so close. like looking for your eyes with your eyes... anyway these thoughts are not as important as the investigating, so i will get back to that now. your last post gave me a fresh impulse, so i will just follow that. much gratitude... ;-)

[Damon Kamda]

You're doing great.

Yet, let me be a little bit more direct, I don't want to send you off searching for something that will never be found ;-)

What comes up if you consider the following:

There is no ground to stand on, no center, no identity, no one home- no self at all. None as in zero, void, empty.

Is this true? Look, sense, feel....

[kristian]

wow, this one was hard to swallow. i need some more time to look into it. i sat today, marinating with this and came to a point of fairly pure seeing, yet still not satisfied with the attachment to phenomena. who is attached, is my question? i'll get back tomorrow...

[Damon Kamda]

who is attached, is my question?

The who is assumed.
Is there a who at all?
Could it be that what is assumed to be identification is itself nothing more than an idea?

I'll get back tomorrow

Great! Looking forward to your findings...

[kristian]

i'm very sorry because i have been busy this morning and i am off to work now. the investigation is continuing, but i don't have enough time to put it into words right now. i will write tonight after work...

[Damon Kamda]

No worries...

[kristian]

so, as i am looking at what is, there are ideas, there are thoughts, there is "stickiness" of these, yet that which is looking i can't find. i simply am the looking. when i turn around to look for the observer, as strong sense of "presence" is experienced. when attention is on thoughts and interactions, less of a sense of presence is experienced. yet that which is, is always here. regardless of the experience of "more" or "less". that's what the investigation has led up to until now. once i have to express it, it all seems a bit clumsy. i now fully understand the opening lines of the tao te ching: the tao that can be put into words is not the one true tao.