Dear Hannah, Better thanks. watching decision making: first thought about choice happens and bodily sensations; Actual moment of choice happens with no conscious thought, when action happens to actuate that choice. Thought that choice has been made then happens. Do you want details?
Thoughts appear without an agent - then can become story, or if left will go to be followed by next thought. No thinker. xx Louie
Thread for Louie
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Hannah B-T
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Re: Thread for Louie
Beautiful report! Very precise looking and clear. i can see the scientific conditioning playing out, it lends itself nicely to this 'experimental' approach...
So is it clear now about a separate 'chooser/controller'? Is there one?
How does this fit with the concept of conditioned co-production for you?
All this doesn't mean thoughts won't still pop up saying 'i chose/did/ controlled that' !
So let's get down to brass tacks- tell me...
What is 'i' ?
(remember look right now and try and find 'i', ignore theoretical speculation) and just report what happens/ what is noticed.
not about the process, more about any effects seeing this is having especially when apparently stressful choices arise.Do you want details?
How does the 'becoming story' vs 'being left' thing work? Is there anything controlling that when you look?then can become story, or if left will go to be followed by next thought.
So is it clear now about a separate 'chooser/controller'? Is there one?
How does this fit with the concept of conditioned co-production for you?
All this doesn't mean thoughts won't still pop up saying 'i chose/did/ controlled that' !
So let's get down to brass tacks- tell me...
What is 'i' ?
(remember look right now and try and find 'i', ignore theoretical speculation) and just report what happens/ what is noticed.
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)
Re: Thread for Louie
Hi Hannah, feeling better thanks. I submitted a reply yesterday, but can't find it now - lost in the ether! thoughts flow in and out - not mine. If there is a story, it sets up a perception of 'me'. Choices: thoughts about choices occur, but at point of choice, action happens, and then thought again, no agent. When I really looked I could not find a chooser, simply process. x Louie
Re: Thread for Louie
Sorry Hannah, I missed your reply from yesterday - will be back thanks. x Louie
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Hannah B-T
- Posts: 1018
- Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:38 am
Re: Thread for Louie
yeah, that happens, best to do in wordpad as I mentioned!
So is it clear there is no separate self? Any doubts come up when i say that, that would be useful to look at?
One for me was I still felt an 'i' was located/contained inside the body...how is that seen right now?
So is it clear there is no separate self? Any doubts come up when i say that, that would be useful to look at?
One for me was I still felt an 'i' was located/contained inside the body...how is that seen right now?
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)
Re: Thread for Louie
ok thanks for letting me know.
Just a couple of questions to ask, it may actually be easier to look at these with the 'fuzzy mind', i know that sounds strange, but go with me...
what does the word 'mind' point to in your direct experience?
Where do thoughts come from?
Where do they go to?
Are you the thinker of your thoughts?
Rest well
xx
Hannah B-T
Hello Hannah, Thankyou for all your care and interest. I'm not sure what is happening on-line, as I can't find our exchanges after yours quoted above.
You asked me how I felt now:
open in the chest area., relieved to let go noticing the flow of being, Allowing thoughts, with only occasional 'story'
You asked about thoughts becoming a story. There is thought, and then sensation of tightness, like clinging. Letting go and relaxing allows another thought. Very little tightness in past 24 hours, just flow.
You asked about conditioned co-production? All phenomena come from causes and conditions - all - No I seen. Causes and conditions complex and difficult to unravel.
I search for I or me and find none.
xx Louie
Just a couple of questions to ask, it may actually be easier to look at these with the 'fuzzy mind', i know that sounds strange, but go with me...
what does the word 'mind' point to in your direct experience?
Where do thoughts come from?
Where do they go to?
Are you the thinker of your thoughts?
Rest well
xx
Hannah B-T
Hello Hannah, Thankyou for all your care and interest. I'm not sure what is happening on-line, as I can't find our exchanges after yours quoted above.
You asked me how I felt now:
open in the chest area., relieved to let go noticing the flow of being, Allowing thoughts, with only occasional 'story'
You asked about thoughts becoming a story. There is thought, and then sensation of tightness, like clinging. Letting go and relaxing allows another thought. Very little tightness in past 24 hours, just flow.
You asked about conditioned co-production? All phenomena come from causes and conditions - all - No I seen. Causes and conditions complex and difficult to unravel.
I search for I or me and find none.
xx Louie
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Hannah B-T
- Posts: 1018
- Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:38 am
Re: Thread for Louie
Hope you can see this! This forum is playing up. Will message you on facebook too to check.
Looks like it's time for the 'standard questions' we ask to clarify this seeing, and to proceed to access to the LU facebook groups which may be of interest for further exploration. If you are up for them here they are!
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it
works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this
dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.
6) Anything to add?
Looks like it's time for the 'standard questions' we ask to clarify this seeing, and to proceed to access to the LU facebook groups which may be of interest for further exploration. If you are up for them here they are!
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it
works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this
dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.
6) Anything to add?
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)
Re: Thread for Louie
Thanks yes, I have your last message - have copied into word, and will answer - probably 1-2 days to fully write up experience. Much gratitude to you, x Louie
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Hannah B-T
- Posts: 1018
- Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:38 am
Re: Thread for Louie
no rush, looking forward to your responses
xx
xx
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)
Re: Thread for Louie
LU answers from Louie to Hannah,
Dear Hannah, you asked me some questions, which I copied, but seem to have disappeared from the site. -
here are answers. If I don't hear from you in 2 days, I'll email you through Facebook. Take care, xx Louie
1) Q.Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
Answer: There is no self of any kind, except in delusion, and never has been.
2)Q. Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it
works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
Answer: pleasant or unpleasant feelings lead to certain emotions eg. fear resentment or conceit - this leads to clinging
felt as physical tightness in the body especially around the throat often with a strange taste in the mouth.
These senasations lead to a feeling of separation and sense of a separate self.
Noticing that even if the initial feeling was pleasant,open and relaxed this tightning and selfing becomes unpleasant,
leading to separation and comparison. If initial feeling was unpleasant, then stories come up, such as feeling not taken into account.
and resentments arise.
Do you want examples?
3)Q. How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this
dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Answer:In the past few days I have felt relaxed and content.
There has been a sense of being just 'natural', not trying to stop or force anything.
There is a sensation of okness in the central chest area. There have been very small instances of the tightness associated
with selfing, which are recognised, and let go of. A sense of relief, and letting go.
4) Q. What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Answer: observing the process of choosing a drink. Standing in the kitchen, with a tea bag and coffee. Noticing physical sensations
as I imagined drinking one or the other; sense input, the aroma of coffee, the texture of tea etc. Also thoughts arising around that
and thoughts concerned with different benefits or downsides of tea or coffee. Then noticing that action had happened, my arm chose
coffee, and was putting grounds into the pot. Seeing the skandhas interacting, with no central controller or ghostly 'me'.
5)Q Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.
Answer:There are intentions, and thoughts around choice, but I don't make anything happen.
eg.getting up this morning, woke later than usual, tired after a late night. Lay watching physical sensation of relaxation
and wellbeing. Also stiffness and some muscle ache. Intention to get up to keep an appointment. Thoughts around that, and
conflicting desires - stay cosy in bed or get up and not be late. Eventually, desire tipped towards getting up, then my legs were
swinging out of bed, to stand up. A process was taking place.
6)Q. Anything to add? Answer: Much gratitude for this process and to you, and curiosity as to how it continues.
xx Louie
Dear Hannah, you asked me some questions, which I copied, but seem to have disappeared from the site. -
here are answers. If I don't hear from you in 2 days, I'll email you through Facebook. Take care, xx Louie
1) Q.Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
Answer: There is no self of any kind, except in delusion, and never has been.
2)Q. Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it
works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
Answer: pleasant or unpleasant feelings lead to certain emotions eg. fear resentment or conceit - this leads to clinging
felt as physical tightness in the body especially around the throat often with a strange taste in the mouth.
These senasations lead to a feeling of separation and sense of a separate self.
Noticing that even if the initial feeling was pleasant,open and relaxed this tightning and selfing becomes unpleasant,
leading to separation and comparison. If initial feeling was unpleasant, then stories come up, such as feeling not taken into account.
and resentments arise.
Do you want examples?
3)Q. How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this
dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Answer:In the past few days I have felt relaxed and content.
There has been a sense of being just 'natural', not trying to stop or force anything.
There is a sensation of okness in the central chest area. There have been very small instances of the tightness associated
with selfing, which are recognised, and let go of. A sense of relief, and letting go.
4) Q. What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Answer: observing the process of choosing a drink. Standing in the kitchen, with a tea bag and coffee. Noticing physical sensations
as I imagined drinking one or the other; sense input, the aroma of coffee, the texture of tea etc. Also thoughts arising around that
and thoughts concerned with different benefits or downsides of tea or coffee. Then noticing that action had happened, my arm chose
coffee, and was putting grounds into the pot. Seeing the skandhas interacting, with no central controller or ghostly 'me'.
5)Q Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.
Answer:There are intentions, and thoughts around choice, but I don't make anything happen.
eg.getting up this morning, woke later than usual, tired after a late night. Lay watching physical sensation of relaxation
and wellbeing. Also stiffness and some muscle ache. Intention to get up to keep an appointment. Thoughts around that, and
conflicting desires - stay cosy in bed or get up and not be late. Eventually, desire tipped towards getting up, then my legs were
swinging out of bed, to stand up. A process was taking place.
6)Q. Anything to add? Answer: Much gratitude for this process and to you, and curiosity as to how it continues.
xx Louie
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Hannah B-T
- Posts: 1018
- Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:38 am
Re: Thread for Louie
Thank you for your answers- I think these are just a matter of language clarity, but just a couple of points i'd like a bit more on if possible-
Delusion is a concept (i.e a learnt indirect experience) for me, I'm interested at what that word is pointing to right now.
When you've answered these i'll get some other guides to take a look at this dialogue and see if there are any further questions they would like to ask you which can be useful for you to answer then we'll go from there...
xx
What do you mean by 'except in delusion'?There is no self of any kind, except in delusion
Delusion is a concept (i.e a learnt indirect experience) for me, I'm interested at what that word is pointing to right now.
What are 'emotions' directly experienced as? Are they experienced as being in any way 'personal'? How is that seen now?feelings lead to certain emotions eg. fear resentment or conceit
When you've answered these i'll get some other guides to take a look at this dialogue and see if there are any further questions they would like to ask you which can be useful for you to answer then we'll go from there...
xx
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)
Re: Thread for Louie
Thank you Hannah for your prompt input.
1) Hannah Q. What do you mean by 'except in delusion'?
Delusion is a concept (i.e a learnt indirect experience) for me, I'm interested at what that word is pointing to right now.
Answer: 'except in delusion' relates to the habit of 'selfing', the illusion of self in response to certain stimuli as described in Answer 2 last time. This habit is lessening and is being seen seen as habit.
2) Hannah Q. What are 'emotions' directly experienced as? Are they experienced as being in any way 'personal'? How is that seen now?
Answer: 'emotions' are directly experienced as sensations in the body, indicating mind states. eg. an external stimulus leads to an unpleasant sensation in the upper abdomen, tightness around the throat, shallow more rapid breathing, perhaps sweating, indicating the mind state anxiety; anxiety being a label or shorthand for the process. Not in the sense of me or belonging to me.
Much gratitude for your care, xx Louie
1) Hannah Q. What do you mean by 'except in delusion'?
Delusion is a concept (i.e a learnt indirect experience) for me, I'm interested at what that word is pointing to right now.
Answer: 'except in delusion' relates to the habit of 'selfing', the illusion of self in response to certain stimuli as described in Answer 2 last time. This habit is lessening and is being seen seen as habit.
2) Hannah Q. What are 'emotions' directly experienced as? Are they experienced as being in any way 'personal'? How is that seen now?
Answer: 'emotions' are directly experienced as sensations in the body, indicating mind states. eg. an external stimulus leads to an unpleasant sensation in the upper abdomen, tightness around the throat, shallow more rapid breathing, perhaps sweating, indicating the mind state anxiety; anxiety being a label or shorthand for the process. Not in the sense of me or belonging to me.
Much gratitude for your care, xx Louie
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Hannah B-T
- Posts: 1018
- Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:38 am
Re: Thread for Louie
No further questions from other guides... looks like we are done here!
I'll send you a private message on here and facebook later today to explain what happens next.
It's been a joy
xx
I'll send you a private message on here and facebook later today to explain what happens next.
It's been a joy
xx
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)
Re: Thread for Louie
Thanks Hannah - Your skilful guiding is so helpful - it's a strange process opening out into new mysterious freer directions - much gratitude to you and to Satyapala who suggested it to me, and set us up together. xx Louie
PS. looking forward to what happens next!
PS. looking forward to what happens next!
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Hannah B-T
- Posts: 1018
- Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:38 am
Re: Thread for Louie
Apologies, have had unexpected family illness arise and not able to get near a computer (am writing this on phone), should be back online tomorrow night x
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)
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