Seeking Guide

[Don]

Hello LU,

My name is Don and I'm seeking a guide. Thank you.

[neeeel]

hey, I can be your guide if you like.

Write a bit about what brought you here, and what you expect to happen, if anything.

neil

[Don]

Write a bit about what brought you here

Hi Neil, what I understand, at least conceptually, is that the direct experience of no self is the cessation of dukkha (suffering, dissatisfaction, etc.). If the direct experience of no self is what you can guide me towards, great!

and what you expect to happen, if anything.

I'm actually skeptical that anything will happen, although a part of me actually hopes that I could have a direct experience of no self, whatever that is.

[neeeel]

Hey Don,

Hi Neil, what I understand, at least conceptually, is that the direct experience of no self is the cessation of dukkha (suffering, dissatisfaction, etc.). If the direct experience of no self is what you can guide me towards, great!



I'm actually skeptical that anything will happen, although a part of me actually hopes that I could have a direct experience of no self, whatever that is.

What if I told you that right now, you are directly experiencing no self?

And that at all previous moments in your life, you have also directly experienced no self?

How would you know when you have a direct experience of no -self? What would indicate that to you? It might be worth getting your ideas, expectations, and pre conceived ideas out in the open. If the answer is "I dont know how I would know", then how will you know when you have had the experience?

Lets approach this from the other end. If you are expecting an experience of no self, then you must be experiencing a self right now. So what is it that tells you that there is a self present? How do you know there is such a thing? What does it mean to have a self?

[Don]

I guess my concept of the direct experience of no self would include the cessation of suffering, because there would be no self to experience suffering, and since I am experiencing suffering I come to the conclusion that there is still a self here.

So the cessation of suffering would be how I know that I've had a direct experience of no self. I'm not looking for a temporary cessation of suffering, but a permanent cessation of suffering.

[neeeel]

I guess my concept of the direct experience of no self would include the cessation of suffering, because there would be no self to experience suffering, and since I am experiencing suffering I come to the conclusion that there is still a self here.

So the cessation of suffering would be how I know that I've had a direct experience of no self. I'm not looking for a temporary cessation of suffering, but a permanent cessation of suffering.

Then I am sorry to dissapoint you , but as I said, you are already experiencing no self, right now ,and yet you are still suffering.

If there is no self, then there has never been a self, ever. And yet, you can look back in your life and say you have suffered, or maybe you are suffering right now. So suffering or not suffering can not be an indication of no self.

It seems like you are looking for a way to make the suffering stop. And while that may happen, it also may not. I cannot offer you that, or any guarantee of what may or may not happen

still want to continue?


If so, could you answer the following question

Lets approach this from the other end. If you are expecting an experience of no self, then you must be experiencing a self right now. So what is it that tells you that there is a self present? How do you know there is such a thing? What does it mean to have a self?

[Don]

I am searching for answers to your questions and all that is coming up is confusion. There are just thoughts which create more thoughts without any good answers to your questions. A sense of frustration at this endless search and a thought that I am not going to get it because I'm not smart enough.

[neeeel]

I am searching for answers to your questions and all that is coming up is confusion. There are just thoughts which create more thoughts without any good answers to your questions. A sense of frustration at this endless search and a thought that I am not going to get it because I'm not smart enough.

dont worry, confusion is natural. There are not really any "logical" answers, so thoughts go round and round trying to find the answer, and confusion is the result. dont worry about good answers, or right answers.

All I am asking is, currently you must believe that a self exists. So, what is it that leads you to believe this.

I will give you a start

Are you the thinker of thought? Are you the decision maker? Are you the person or entity that is good, a good father, a bad husband, a fast runner?


What comes up for you when I tell you that you are already experiencing no self right now?

[Don]

It seems like I am the thinker of thoughts and the maker of decisions. If I'm not any of those things, then what about free will and responsibility?

When you say I am already experiencing no self right now I feel resistance and disbelief. I guess I've been conditioned to believe that the experience of no self only comes after lots of meditation practice. I don't want to go around saying that I'm awakened or enlightened when I'm really not. So I don't believe you when you say that I'm already experiencing no self right now.

[neeeel]

It seems like I am the thinker of thoughts and the maker of decisions. If I'm not any of those things, then what about free will and responsibility?

Ok. So you assume you are the thinker of thoughts. So take a look. Is it true?
Try and think a random thought. What happens?
Try and predict your next thought. What happens?

( note, I want you to actually try these, look, and report on what happens)

When you say I am already experiencing no self right now I feel resistance and disbelief. I guess I've been conditioned to believe that the experience of no self only comes after lots of meditation practice. I don't want to go around saying that I'm awakened or enlightened when I'm really not. So I don't believe you when you say that I'm already experiencing no self right now.

If there is no self ( I realise that you dont see it at the moment), then it follows that there is experience of no self at all times, correct?
( maybe "experiencing no self" is a bit confusing, and it might be clearer to say " no experience of self")

You cant experience something that isnt there. What you do experience are thoughts about the self. About yourself. Can you find a self anywhere ? Can you see a self, touch a self, sense a self?

[Don]

Ok. So you assume you are the thinker of thoughts. So take a look. Is it true?
Try and think a random thought. What happens?
Try and predict your next thought. What happens?

( note, I want you to actually try these, look, and report on what happens)

I can't think a random thought or predict the next thought. When I observe, thoughts arise on their own, though these thoughts are connected with trying to think random thoughts or predicting what the next thought will be, like a loop. The thoughts are like chain reactions, causing each other to arise.

If there is no self ( I realise that you dont see it at the moment), then it follows that there is experience of no self at all times, correct?
( maybe "experiencing no self" is a bit confusing, and it might be clearer to say " no experience of self")

You cant experience something that isnt there. What you do experience are thoughts about the self. About yourself. Can you find a self anywhere ? Can you see a self, touch a self, sense a self?

There is a sense of self and a belief in self when I am not actively looking for the self. I feel like it takes so much energy to realize that there is no self but just a sense of and belief in a self. I live life almost all of the time from this sense of or belief in a self.

[neeeel]

I can't think a random thought or predict the next thought. When I observe, thoughts arise on their own, though these thoughts are connected with trying to think random thoughts or predicting what the next thought will be, like a loop. The thoughts are like chain reactions, causing each other to arise.

So are you the thinker of thoughts?

There is a sense of self and a belief in self when I am not actively looking for the self. I feel like it takes so much energy to realize that there is no self but just a sense of and belief in a self. I live life almost all of the time from this sense of or belief in a self.

Describe the sense of self.

When you are actively looking for a self, can you find one?

[neeeel]

The thoughts are like chain reactions, causing each other to arise.

does a thought cause another thought to arise? Can a thought do anything?

thought 2 may reference the content of thought 1, but does thought 1 cause thought 2?

[Don]

So are you the thinker of thoughts?

No. Thoughts arise on their own.

Describe the sense of self.

When you are actively looking for a self, can you find one?

The sense of self is like a thought loop on repeat in the background of the mind, almost unconscious, playing "I", "me", and "mine" over and over again. It's subtle. That combined with a sense of an "I/me" located in the head that is the "doer", the one that is typing this right now.

When I am actively looking for a self, I feel like the self is the one looking for the self.

does a thought cause another thought to arise? Can a thought do anything?

thought 2 may reference the content of thought 1, but does thought 1 cause thought 2?

I see your point.

[neeeel]

No. Thoughts arise on their own.

Then thats it. If you looked, and saw that thoughts come up on their own, then you are seeing that there is no self involved in thinking. Thinking just happens. Now you just need to do the same for all other things that you attribute to a self ( decision maker, doer , feeler, etc)

The sense of self is like a thought loop on repeat in the background of the mind, almost unconscious, playing "I", "me", and "mine" over and over again. It's subtle.

OK, and as you have just seen ( by looking) thoughts are automatic, there is no self doing them... and so...?

Take a closer look at the thought loop, what is the "I" that the thoughts are referring to?

That combined with a sense of an "I/me" located in the head that is the "doer", the one that is typing this right now.

Lets take a look at doership.

Raise your right arm.

Now, how did you do that?

does a thought cause another thought to arise? Can a thought do anything?

thought 2 may reference the content of thought 1, but does thought 1 cause thought 2?

I see your point.

Take a closer look at thoughts again. There is thought followed by thought followed by thought. Some thoughts claim that thoughts are caused to arise by other thoughts. Is it true? Take a look.