Tying Up Loose Ends, Guide Please

[smi]

Hi Laura,

Attention wavers from I / me labeling, to direct experience back and forth, (not deliberately so, but as in falling out of direct experience back into I / me thinking, then discovering that and shifting focus back), as in following the exercise you gave me.

Good. Check if there is even something that chooses where attention goes to? See if attention is deliberate or happening automatically on its own?

YOU: Test, check, look and pay attention to how thoughts show up.
Me: If I were to do that for myself, am I asking questions of a thought? What would they be? OR Am I simply noticing the difference between a thought that starts with I/me vs one that is direct experience?

No, we have already discovered that thoughts cannot think. When you drive a car for example (or van in NYC), do you need to “think” every move to operate the car or does the body simply operate the car without any thought needed? Or when you brush your teeth, do you need to think in order to brush the teeth? Thoughts arise and add a layer on top of direct experience. So, notice difference between direct experience and a layer of thinking on top of that.

The point of observing thoughts is simply to recognize that thoughts arise on their own without anyone/anything thinking them. Things happen, body acts, observing happens and sometimes thoughts show up describing what is happening and/or claiming ownership and/or something else…

The fact that there are thoughts is not a problem. The problem is when we claim thoughts, when we believe we are thinking them. So check that. Do you own thoughts? Do you think thoughts? Are there any thoughts that are “intended” or are all thoughts completely automatic? Is there any control of thoughts at all?

One of my favourite quotes from ‘Sailor’ Bob Adamson that sort of relates to that issue and consequences of ownership of thinking is: “What’s wrong with right now, unless you think about it?” I think it's a great quote to ponder a little. :)

Kind regards
Milan

[Laura68]

Sept 25, 8:37PM
Hi Milan,
Checking in…I am a massage therapist…sometimes the days are busy. Right now rushing to complete credits in time for next certificate to practice. The state initiated this new requirement, but did not send notifications to practitioners. I found out “late”. So been heavily engaged the last few days registering / attending, etc.
However, I read through our transcripts daily and hold as much as I can throughout the day. Your last note is particularly compact and to the point, bravo. I have that one printed out so I can read it when overwhelm sets in.
While I have not investigated Sailor Bob, I do have some personal connection with one of his friends, Charlie Hayes, and he is always using that expression you quoted. All for now on my end.
Best, Laura

[smi]

Hi Laura,

Just letting you know that I'm monitoring our thread and whenever you are ready I'm here with new pointers. :)
Good luck with your certification.

Kind regards
Milan

[Laura68]

September 27, 2013
7:20PM
Hi Milan,
Wonderful to sit here for a few moments in reflection and send you a note.
Copying you again here: “It seems to me you are teetering on the edge here. Partly you see through and partly there is still tendency to identify.” Me: Attention wavers from I / me labeling, to direct experience back and forth, (not deliberately so, but as in falling out of direct experience back into I / me thinking, then discovering that and shifting focus back), as in following the exercise you gave me.”
Things have been happening the last few days that would formerly trigger solid identification / thinking / feeling / reactions. Instead there is experience of partly being identified but more, seeing through it. Seeing it…lite, not the full blast, fully identified version. I loved the way you said, “claiming thoughts,” that comes up in my mind frequently…a choice is seen.
Delicate time, don’t want to over talk it, spin mental yarns, enough practice at that. Just to say how much appreciation is here for this conversation with you-ness.
Best Laura

[smi]

Hi Laura,

It is Saturday evening and I'm with slight headache so my response will be probably very brief. :)

Things have been happening the last few days that would formerly trigger solid identification / thinking / feeling / reactions. Instead there is experience of partly being identified but more, seeing through it. Seeing it…lite, not the full blast, fully identified version.

That is really great to hear.

I loved the way you said, “claiming thoughts,” that comes up in my mind frequently…a choice is seen. Delicate time, don’t want to over talk it, spin mental yarns, enough practice at that. Just to say how much appreciation is here for this conversation with you-ness.

Few more questions to ponder: In this dance of life, is there a doer, like “someone” that makes things happen? Someone that controls? Is there an observer/witness? Does the body experience sensations and thoughts? Is there an experiencer?

If you feel like it, could you please describe how you experience life now in comparison with few days ago? I’m also curious how you feel now about that expectation of full realization we talked at the very start of our conversation? Did anything change?

Kind regards
Milan

[Laura68]

September 29, 2013
11:35AM

Hi Milan,
I hope you are feeling better.
YOU: Few more questions to ponder: In this dance of life, is there a doer, like “someone” that makes things happen? Someone that controls? Is there an observer/witness? Does the body experience sensations and thoughts? Is there an experiencer?
Me: No, doing is just happening when it does, just like thoughts, no control. No, to the observer/witness but yes to awareness happening. No to the body as experiencer, but awareness of sensations and thoughts.

YOU: If you feel like it, could you please describe how you experience life now in comparison with few days ago? I’m also curious how you feel now about that expectation of full realization we talked at the very start of our conversation? Did anything change?
Me: Big change (in comparison with a few days ago) and at the same time seems a tiny shift. Life/experience now includes awareness of the tendency to "claim" stuff and in that seeing, a return to direct experience happens. Thoughts / situations previously held in a hierarchy of importance are now experienced with increasing neutrality. If disturbance arises, it is seen as equal to any other thought/emotion and appears to move through because there is less claiming going on, less attachment to "outcomes". Past/Future thinking is not present. RE: My expectation of full realization..."I" got what it is that I was trying to get, realization has happened. It appears that a deepening happens as livingness and seeingness continues, reported by some I know who have been there for some time. People who continue with direct experiencing, see their beliefs for what they are. How has it been for you?

Best Wishes, L

[smi]

Hi Laura,

How wonderful to read your response. Would you say that it is clear that there is no separate entity called “self” or “I”?

Me: No, doing is just happening when it does, just like thoughts, no control. No, to the observer/witness but yes to awareness happening. No to the body as experiencer, but awareness of sensations and thoughts.

If you investigate this in direct experience as well – are you awareness or is there just awareness?

Me: Big change (in comparison with a few days ago) and at the same time seems a tiny shift. Life/experience now includes awareness of the tendency to "claim" stuff and in that seeing, a return to direct experience happens…

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self? Is there anything you would like to investigate further or may I ask you the final questions?

I’m looking forward to hear from you and please keep on looking. :)

Kind regards
Milan

[Laura68]

September 29th, 2013 10:30PM
Hi Milan,

YOU: How wonderful to read your response. Would you say that it is clear that there is no separate entity called “self” or “I”?
Me: The title “Tying Up Loose Ends” was an intentional thought. Still there is surprise that this movement is already concluding. There is a wanting to “hang on!” But there is seeing that there is nothing that can hang on and nothing to hang on to. Every day there has been looking in this conversation and the realization that there is no separate entity called “self” or “I” has become more and more clear.
YOU: If you investigate this in direct experience as well – are you awareness or is there just awareness?
Me: There is just / only awareness…no me, no self.
YOU: Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self? Is there anything you would like to investigate further or may I ask you the final questions?
Me: It has been said on the LU site, that what has been seen cannot be unseen. Seeing has happened, there are no doubts about that. Reading back through everything already written, it is clear that it’s all been covered. That it’s now a matter of continuing to look.
Guess it’s time for the final questions.

Thank You, Milan. L

[smi]

Hi Laura,

Fantastic. So loose ends are being tied up. :) Here are the final question. Please, take as much time as you need and as usual answer from your direct experience as it is now.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

Kind regards
Milan

[Laura68]

Oct 1, 11:07AM
Hi Milan, Yes I am taking my time in responding. Probably by the end of the day, or tomorrow.
Busy stuff, the last few days and I want quiet / time to feel.
Thanks, L

[Laura68]

September 30, 2013
Hi Milan,

Here goes…

YOU: 1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Me: No I/me/self, nowhere, no shape or form, EVER was.

YOU: 2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
Me: The illusion of separate self starts passing from parent/caretaker to child at 2-3 years of age. The teaching/learning of language/labeling thoughts, creates this illusion of you/me, the tree, the bottle ect, steering awareness away from that which is undifferentiated and direct experiencing. From then on the illusion of separate/personal self is compounded when “it” claims and comments upon, (interpreting) events, emotionally reacting to those interpretations. This creates “personal” memories, and a sense of life being under personal control, (sometimes more, sometimes less!)

YOU: 3) How does it feel to see this?
Me: Freeing, relieving, relaxing.
YOU: What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Me: Real clarity in the difference between I/Me and direct experience. Shifting from “personally” attaching to experience and all the consequences of commentary/emotional reactions, to simple direct experience.
YOU: Please report from the past few days.
Me: The biggest change is the recognition that thought, experience arises and subsides, (no matter how personal it may feel sometimes, but isn’t), with no control, just happening in experience. Awareness of stuff happening and then other stuff happens…the seeing fluctuates from personal to direct, the tendency to attach wants to happen, seeing that, then relief and relaxation. Thoughts/feelings of anxiety that personal will reassert, seeing that, just seeing thoughts arising, no more or less important, no importance period.
YOU: 4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Me: “I” was very much on the brink and under a huge amount of “personal pressure” when we started together. It was your suggestion that I do the exercise on “Labeling VS Direct Experience” and the sequence of your comments and questions that made it clear. So simple…maybe just the timing but this exercise, this one distinction which is really everything, somehow, had never been encountered by me before, or never presented this way.

YOU: 5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Me: No me there, so no decisions, choices, control of events, or making of anything happening…YAHOOO!!!!!!
YOU: Give examples from your experience.
Me: No me, so no examples and no “my” experience. Just experience.

YOU: 6) Anything to add?
Me: Not right now, other than thank you Milan!

L

[smi]

Hi Laura,

Thanks for answering the questions. I will present your answers to the group and will get back to you if there are comments or questions.

Be back soon…

Kind regards
Milan

[smi]

Hi Laura,

We are good to go. I'll get on with getting your status turned blue. LU admin will be in touch with you soon with various info, links etc. for the various Facebook groups.

I've really enjoyed guiding you through this process. In my experience this is just a beginning. There is a lot more that may get explored or not. Enjoy the ride and have fun. :)

Kind regards
Milan