I would like a guide please

[kvotski]

Hi "Teresa,

Carefully re look at what you said. Are they in direct experience or are they simply thoughts, assumptions, labels and imagination?

.

The iphone somehow feels like an extension of me - my memory, my communications with others, my sanctuary into solitaire when I'm a bit stressed. Far too much of a refuge ...

However, I also realised that my painted toes are a bit sticky - there are 5 different colours in a different order on each foot, & its quite a creative activity to choose the colours & paint them, so they feel like part of my summer identity. I then briefly thought that maybe other things I've made or somehow created may also difficult, but I haven't had time to try that out. Something for tomorrow morning.

People are quite easy to not belong to me - they have their own identities and the my daughter, or my husband feels as though it refers to a connection to them, not to any possessive quality.

In each case there are phrases like "feels like". Is that direct experience or a credit taken by thought of something that happens automatically based on what may have happened before or concurrently, a deterministic response.

Is your iPhone any different than other iPhones? In addition to calling it a label, mine, you may have added other labels to apps on the machine or "your" contacts. In DE are any of those yours or are they just what they are? Objects.

There was beautiful creativity in painting toe nails but why is that creativity yours? A creative thought came into the head and the hands painted them. Was there any need of a label called you? If you scratch it a little more, you may find other causes for this creative expression by a body and its hand which feel like you because you are so close and so familiar.

Did any of these things happen by a process that is so very different from how the body breathes digests food, walks or sleeps? Don't you often attach the labels I breathe, I am digesting my food or I sleep?

There appears to be a subtle difference because of the subtle nature of the decision making in painting toenails or filling up the address book on the iPhone. But in DE, is there?

[TeresaC]

Hi Sunil
This is now doing my head in - which is probably a good place to be ;) I've looked up deterministic / determinism as I didn't think I quite understood it. It seems to mean hard line causality, as opposed to Buddhist conditionality - which I thought I understood.

I'm a sculptor and some of my things are from images of part of me - monster, wise woman, the part that hates to be judged. But these current thoughts as written here apply to all created things, art forms etc & also poetry, in fact anything created by anybody.

There is creation, there is creativity, there are the physical forms that result from creativity. That feels better ... less discombobulated.

I need to get up & will leave these thoughts swirling in my head.

Thank you :)

[kvotski]

Hi Teresa,

Yes unquestionably there is creativity, creation and created. It's my tendency to add a my label that is source of much ennui. Can it be seen in DE. Think back, were the best sculptures not produced when you were not there fussing over it? My best poems were like that and so were any of research breakthroughs. Hard work by the body and mind created an unknown process which created and a thought popped in claiming credit. Us humans have a habit of doing that in offices. Security councils and war grounds. Look.

[TeresaC]

Hi Sunil
I've spent quite a bit of time today rereading the posts & the Direct Experience article. Not sure about anything but here are a few thoughts.

The iphone is just a phone, the contacts are of people I know, the information about them was a thought when I put it into the phone. It is now lost, forgotten information to memory, but still sits in the phone & is accessible.

You're right, the best things are created when the thinking mind isn't there, and for me the body knows how to throw a pot, or sculpt a shape. There is tasting, touching, feeling clothes on the skin, hearing, seeing. There is aliveness, there are thoughts.

Just about with thoughts are real but the content can be imaginary.

Then it starts to get complicated... Adding labels - adding me, mine etc is straightforward, seen and once seen can be discarded except when needed for clarity. I'm going to sleep, maybe the understanding will have moved in the morning.

Teresa x

[kvotski]

Hi Teresa,

Great stuff. Once seen can't be unseen. Ramana used to say doubt the doubter.

Let me have the doubts when they arise.

Then lets move on to choices. We often take huge pride in being the decision makers. So next time you decide between tea or coffee, getting up or continue to watch tv, having dinner in or going out. Look how is that decision made? Is there a person making the decision or that too happening based on circumstances, input from the outside, a thought resurfacing about how good the Chinese was on that block?

To give it another twist, just when the body and mind has decided on something try to impose a personal decision against that. Look at what transpires. Surely you are the boss. Or are you?

[TeresaC]

"Then it starts to get complicated... Adding labels - adding me, mine etc is straightforward, seen and once seen can be discarded except when needed for clarity"

Fascinating - now reading this & wondering where it came from !! ho hum, sit with it.

On to choices. I've already done some work on this as my friend & mentor is considering doing this process & has found this a big sticking point - which I didn't seem to. I think all choices are made based on conditions, & that there is no "personal decision". The conditions include our internal habits, previous actions of body & mind, and any external triggers / happenings. Decisions are just "made" by the body & mind.

I'm going to look at decisions that I make today & see if anything happens that makes me think there is a "me" making decisions other than conditions. Trying to impose a decision on one that body & mind have made is hard - I'm thinking of my slimming diet and how I firmly decide eg not to eat chocolate & can then find myself eating a piece 5 minutes later.

Time to get up.

Oh yes, tried to use the quote function & got tied in knots :) - but might have sorted it.

[TeresaC]

Hi Sunil

I've done a lot of travelling today, home now. I've been reflecting on how choices are made during the day. For a lot of choices they follow on from an initial choice. For example, I was away for the weekend, and decided to come back today. That was my mind looking at external happenings - nothing in my diary, sculpture workshop starts next week, leisurely drive home. That choice being made, lots of other choices just followed on and didn't require much thought. I had to pack my bags, look round for what I might have forgotten, load the car, set off. The best route has been worked out over a few years, so no decision really, except to follow what mind has already worked out.

I did need to make decisions over what to eat & drink. That was largely what I had with me or could find when I was hungry. A choice in a shop - no raspberry cheesecake, so creme caramel instead. That choice based on what gives me most pleasure out of what is available.

So, I'm left with how are the top level decisions made, are there any top level decisions, do all decisions follow from outside happenings, or mind or body.

Something to sleep on.

[kvotski]

Hi Teresa,

No problems here. You know how the decisions are being made at Teresa inc.

Now, when you refer to my mind. Can you find the owner of the mind? Can you find the mind?

Lets go for the big picture. Experience is happening at Teresa inc. is there an experiencer?

[TeresaC]

Hi Sunil

"my mind" is part of the corporate identity made up of mind & senses, & I guess experiences. I've just reread the Direct Experience article. I like "Experience experiencing itself". That seems to describe "my mind" & also includes all the senses. There is no owner of the mind, the mind is thoughts, & understanding the thoughts is .... is what .... is consciousness which is just making sense of thoughts, which is ... mind ...

I now have the Thomas Crown Affair song in my mind ... these lyrics seem to describe well where I am on this ...

Round, like a circle in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel.
Never ending or beginning,
......
Like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind
...

So is there an experiencer .... this bundle of mind & senses that hangs together in some way is what experiences everything as sensations & thoughts. Is the sense of aliveness the glue that holds it all together. If I close my eyes, the parts of my body that are not touching anything have no sensation of edge to them. But I seem to exist as some sort of entity, a body, thoughts, experiences unique to this bundle ...

I do wonder whether our language is filtering the experience in an unhelpful way, & whether its possible to have a language that makes it all much easier!!

No fixed self ... no separate self ... no self ... getting there but not quite there ... who or what is getting there grrrrrrr

Time for sleep

[kvotski]

Hi Teresa,

Youa re right there.
Now restate what you have above but weed out thoughts and opinions, just direct experience like you said about no edges to your body.

Is there an expereincer you can find in DE?
Is there a mind in DE?
Is there a you in DE?

Good night.

[TeresaC]

I shall leave these sitting in my mind for my dreams to play with :) x

[TeresaC]

Lots of "I"s etc in the next paragraph ...

I don't have a visual image of no self. The visual image of my whole "self" is as I am in the mirror, maybe with fewer wrinkles and it sits in my body. I also have visual images of parts of myself, some of which I've sculpted or made pictures of. These are quite important to me.

But, seeing that written down, I'm realising that it's not that simple. "I" am in constant change, so any image is merely a snapshot of a particular moment, even though it may feel "right" for quite a long time. So ... any image I might want of no-self would also be a snapshot .... hah - so the important thing is the realising that all images of me or part of me are snapshots.

That helps with is there an experiencer - any experiencer would be in constant change & would therefore be an experience, so experience experiencing itself makes perfect sense - YAY !!

There is no need for glue, the dance of experience with itself is all there is. I'm writing this & wondering why I'm not going yes but, yes but .....

The experience of aliveness is a thought, aliveness too is ever changing. The amount of energy i have, the body sensations like hunger, headache, pleasure from chocolate, all indicate aliveness.

Going to go & ponder this while I eat something nice.

[kvotski]

Hi Teresa,

.

I don't have a visual image of no self. The visual image of my whole "self" is as I am in the mirror, maybe with fewer wrinkles and it sits in my body. I also have visual images of parts of myself, some of which I've sculpted or made pictures of. These are quite important to me.

But, seeing that written down, I'm realising that it's not that simple. "I" am in constant change, so any image is merely a snapshot of a particular moment, even though it may feel "right" for quite a long time. So ... any image I might want of no-self would also be a snapshot .... hah - so the important thing is the realising that all images of me or part of me are snapshots.

How can you have an image of no self? What would it look like?

Yes, they are all snapshots lost for ever.

The image in the mirror is the" whole" self? What about the senses, thoughts, aliveness? Do they show up in the mirror?
What would a partial self look like? Is the important image parts you or just parts of a body? Without those parts, are you still around?

Is there a you around, at all?

[TeresaC]

The visual image of the whole self is of me as an alive being with senses & thoughts. It just looks like I physically am as opposed to the images of parts of me that don't look like my physical body.

The partial selves aren't physical parts, but parts like wise woman, monster, the part that hates to be judged. Most of these have a "character" that started from an awareness of where I was holding emotion in the body. For example the part that hates to be judged started as an awareness of a white long thin area on the front of my rib cage. When I sculpted it, it has a miserable face & amazingly hair that became a bit like a judges wig, so the part of me that hates to be judged looks like a judge.

My wise woman I met first in a dream, she has become the part of me that I would like to grow to be - mature, integrated, knows how to be in all situations. She wears long flowery dresses.

I read somewhere years ago that integration is the dance of our various selves, and "I" am made up of these parts of me, plus lots of other bits that I'm not aware of. But when I look for "me" as one complete, whole being, acting in one coherent way there's nothing there. There are just responses to conditions, and these responses may be able to be labelled as a response from eg my monster if I get annoyed & glare at someone or shout.

While I was meditating yesterday evening I thought that my "characters" are a bit like Father Christmas, and also remembered that thoughts are real, but the content of thoughts can be imaginary. So, my characters are imaginary, and any overall "I" is also imaginary. I can think about it & make/have an image that I hold but that is imaginary not real.

So, I have a habit of awareness of characters & of "me", of responding from them, but I might as well be responding from Father Christmas or Wonderwoman.

So there is no me, there are just patterns of responding.

But, the habit that likes to personalise these responses now wants to personalise "no self" ... it feels strange to not have an image that reflects this new view ... It would be very easy to turn "no self" into a new slightly different "self" to satisfy this habit / longing ...

But so far, I can't find an image for no self, and when I look for it in my body I don't seem to be holding it anywhere, it's more like a flow, a free response to conditions - that are either sensations n my body, or thoughts that arise. And I can't make a static image of that, it might have to be a moving video ...

I'm not sure how stable this is, habits are hard to break ...

Time to get up. x

[kvotski]

Hi Teresa,

The visual image of the whole self is of me as an alive being with senses & thoughts. It just looks like I physically am as opposed to the images of parts of me that don't look like my physical ..

The partial selves aren't physical parts, but parts like wise woman, monster, the part that hates to be judged. Most of these have a "character" that started from an awareness of where I was holding emotion in the body. For example the part that hates to be judged started as an awareness of a white long thin area on the front of my rib cage. When I sculpted it, it has a miserable face & amazingly hair that became a bit like a judges wig, so the part of me that hates to be judged looks like a judge.

My wise woman I met first in a dream, she has become the part of me that I would like to grow to be - mature, integrated, knows how to be in all situations. She wears long flowery dresses.

I read somewhere years ago that integration is the dance of our various selves, and "I" am made up of these parts of me, plus lots of other bits that I'm not aware of. But when I look for "me" as one complete, whole being, acting in one coherent way there's nothing there. There are just responses to conditions, and these responses may be able to be labelled as a response from eg my monster if I get annoyed & glare at someone or shout.

While I was meditating yesterday evening I thought that my "characters" are a bit like Father Christmas, and also remembered that thoughts are real, but the content of thoughts can be imaginary. So, my characters are imaginary, and any overall "I" is also imaginary. I can think about it & make/have an image that I hold but that is imaginary not real.

So, I have a habit of awareness of characters & of "me", of responding from them, but I might as well be responding from Father Christmas or Wonderwoman.

So there is no me, there are just patterns of responding.

Well said. All images, imagination and thoughts. In direct experience, just sensations leading to responses including thoughts.

But, the habit that likes to personalise these responses now wants to personalise "no self" ... it feels strange to not have an image that reflects this new view ... It would be very easy to turn "no self" into a new slightly different "self" to satisfy this habit / longing ...

But so far, I can't find an image for no self, and when I look for it in my body I don't seem to be holding it anywhere, it's more like a flow, a free response to conditions - that are either sensations n my body, or thoughts that arise. And I can't make a static image of that, it might have to be a moving video ...

I'm not sure how stable this is, habits are hard to break ...

Now can you find the thinker of thoughts that produces these images and the imaginary self?

If there is no thinker to be found, can there be a decision maker of your life? Recognizing that choices and decisions are also thoughts.

So, we are now left with experiences, of sensations, of thoughts (of real or unreal objects). Then look for the experiencer of these experiences? What is it? Is there one?